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Old April 9th, 2007, 07:23 PM   #621
Jaxom92
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With the political bullcrap running around this project, I think an earthquake will destroy the thing for us before we can decide on what to do with it.
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Old April 9th, 2007, 09:22 PM   #622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kub86 View Post
Increasing capacity simply increases unnecessary traffic.

I found this quote from a siegel article on ssp:

"Manhattan's West Side Highway, an elevated freeway along the Hudson River, collapsed and was closed in 1973. When it was closed, 53 percent of the traffic that had used this freeway simply disappeared. The political establishment took it for granted that they had to replace it with a bigger and better freeway, but citizen resistance delayed the replacement for two decades, and finally even the politicians saw that the city was getting along quite well without any freeway here. Instead of replacing the freeway, the city simply added new medians, a waterfront park, and a bicycle path to the surface street here."

It's a phenomenon called "disappearing traffic" when freeways are torn down. EVERYBODY expects crazy traffic jams, but in reality the opposite happens. Why? Because people's driving habits change. Everybody assumes that driving habits will remain the same before and after the viaduct.

We're not going to have a viaduct for 10 years anyway while we tear it down/rebuild it; people are going to realize that the city's doing just fine without one as people adjust to the new environment. Just tear it down for pete's sake!!
Well, I have heard that argument, we have different philosophies about this. I also don't think you can compare Manhattan and Seattle. NY has a huge transit system, Seattle has Metro busses. The percentage of New Yorkers using public transit is much higher than in Seattle, where they are still in love with their cars. If Seattle doesn't increase capacity things will get worse, just the way they have by coincidentally "not increasing capacity" the past 35 years!
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Old April 9th, 2007, 10:00 PM   #623
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Going back to the remarks about quality depending by state...

I drove to Vermont for a ski trip on Saturday, on Interstate 91, which goes from CT to there directly. The skiing was great, but driving there sucked.

Interstate 91 in Connecticut is okay, not great but decent...there were 6 lanes to the state line, and the road quality was smooth..but when I went to Massachusetts, it automatically got WORSE, with the pavement making crazy noises, not much of shoulder, and really, really old signage.

It got even worse when I got to Vermont...just horrible. It truly depends from state to state how bad the quality of the road is.
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Old April 10th, 2007, 02:10 AM   #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
Yeah, driving in Europe is not for everyone. You have to be constantly aware of your surrounding and use your brain in planning the next maneuvre. Otherwise, it will be a nightmare. I agree.

The biggest difference between American and European drivers is that the latter don't think they own the road and don't mind if you want to drive faster than them.
Yet another condescending generalization..."duh, do I really have to be aware of my surroundings? I don't feel like using my brain." People should really use their brains before posting their bitter anti-American thoughts. Your nasty attitude is noted, and your ignorant observations on the superior driving skills of Europeans is amusing. One has to laugh at such things...
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Old April 10th, 2007, 02:39 AM   #625
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Von Krautburger acts like he's der fuhrer of der forum. He makes several posts here each day, decrying the quality of American roads compared to the "superior" German roads constructed by the master race. The funniest was his thread on the mountains of NorCal, where he was surrounded by all this spectacular scenery on I-80 but what he chose to take pictures of was some cracks in the road.
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Old April 10th, 2007, 04:02 AM   #626
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Paddington, that is a little unfair. This German poster evidently lives now in the Bay Area, and has offered some good observations on US highways. This site is so much better without the name calling...just an opinion. (BTW, this poster had GOOD things to say about the Northwest).
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Old April 10th, 2007, 04:33 AM   #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
He makes several posts here each day, decrying the quality of American roads compared to the "superior" German roads constructed by the master race.
First of all, no name calling please. Second, can you show me a single post where I said something about the quality of German roads? Anything about German roads at all? I said that Italian autostradas had so far the best quality I have seen in both Europe and America.


Quote:
The funniest was his thread on the mountains of NorCal, where he was surrounded by all this spectacular scenery on I-80 but what he chose to take pictures of was some cracks in the road.
You obviously did not understand what I told you in that thread. Go and re-read it.
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Old April 10th, 2007, 05:34 AM   #628
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Alex, good for you for defending your posts.

It would be great to have you in the great Northwest! Sounds like that is where you would be most comfortable. Welcome.
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Old April 10th, 2007, 06:34 AM   #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwalker View Post
Alex, good for you for defending your posts.

It would be great to have you in the great Northwest! Sounds like that is where you would be most comfortable. Welcome.
Thanks! My fiancee and I believe that crossing Columbia River would be a fresh start for us. Eventually we want to settle somewhere near Seattle because of great scenery and job market.
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Old April 10th, 2007, 11:44 AM   #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
Yeah, driving in Europe is not for everyone. You have to be constantly aware of your surrounding and use your brain in planning the next maneuvre. Otherwise, it will be a nightmare. I agree.

The biggest difference between American and European drivers is that the latter don't think they own the road and don't mind if you want to drive faster than them.
People are actually supportive of Alex for posting this arrogant nonsense? There is no defending such garbage...
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Old April 10th, 2007, 05:12 PM   #631
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So far, you haven't written anything useful but constant insults to me. I wrote my observations based on 3 year experience driving in Europe and 6 years driving in the USA. If you call it a garbage, then at least try to provide your reasoning. Until then I will ignore your posts.
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Old April 10th, 2007, 07:50 PM   #632
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I thought you had excellent posts, as well as insightful things to say on the topic. You didn't insult anybody either. And if it truely matters at this point, being the topic's OP, I think I have at least some say in the quality of posts eh?
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Old April 10th, 2007, 07:51 PM   #633
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My sentiments exactly...you are ignored. I can't stand snotty arrogance. I don't have to explain myself to you or anyone for that.
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Old April 10th, 2007, 07:53 PM   #634
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You should re-read some of his posts then...they were offensive and insulting, as well as inaccurate.
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Old April 10th, 2007, 07:57 PM   #635
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You have a good point. There are enough other options within New York that the displaced drivers are disseminated in a non-intrusive manner throughout the rest of the system, highways and transit. The structure of Seattle's built environment, roads and communting patterns, prevent such a displacement from having as little affect as it would in New York. We have only two other major freeways and an assortment of city roads that'll take up the excess traffic. People will still have to get to where they want to go. Not to mention east-west cross overs between our north-south routes are limited due mainly to geography. Oftentimes, people will take a particular north-south route because it get's them closest to their destination without having to go too far east or west. Losing 1/3 of our north-south capacity will have severe impacts.

Essentially, both statements are true, but inherently specific to the environment from which they orginated.

In any case, the viaduct needs attention, and whatever attention it gets, be it rebuild or tunnel or surface option or what have you, we'll be dealing with the displaced traffic.
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Old April 10th, 2007, 08:42 PM   #636
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I agree Jaxom92. Alex comments have been quite useful, on point and NEVER offensive. Having driven in Europe I can understand where a lot of his points are coming from. And I've also noticed a lot of Americans driving more aggressively than ever in recent years. The PA state police, where I live, started a program aimed at aggresive driving some time back....they didn't do that because it ISN'T a problem.
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Old April 10th, 2007, 09:08 PM   #637
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here is the thing most people still dont understand about america, our roads aint the smoothest in the world, but they work. Its not comfortbale to drive over donner pass, but people do. You cant break an axel or loose a car in those cracks, although they do make the drive a litttle more uncomfortbale. We buy thicker tires that can hande a little jaring every now and again, and guess what, we move on. Maybe the rest of the world should too.

But the argument of roads based on states, i think wyoming and south carolina have some of the best roads, they may not be the smoothest, but there mostly straight and easy to get on and off.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 01:30 AM   #638
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Why did they build the viaduct in the first place, the rest of the road it's on other than the viaduct isn't even access controlled, just the viaduct and tunnel section are!

Just get rid of that road next to the viaduct and the viaduct itself and turn it into a Santa Monica Blvd-looking avenue.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 03:25 AM   #639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotrfan55345 View Post
Why did they build the viaduct in the first place, the rest of the road it's on other than the viaduct isn't even access controlled, just the viaduct and tunnel section are!

Just get rid of that road next to the viaduct and the viaduct itself and turn it into a Santa Monica Blvd-looking avenue.
Why did they build the viaduct in the first place? Because prior to it being built in the early 1950's, there was no main north-south route through the city except city streets. Before the viaduct was built Highway 99 connected up with 4th Avenue near Boeing Field, and up Aurora to Green Lake, (then the north city limits), and continued on its current course up to Everett. Even back then, this route was cumbersome and slow. The growth in the city demanded a better, high speed route, and the viaduct was built.

It can be argued whether it was built at the proper location, but it needed to connect with Highway 99, and the 4th avenue route wasn't far from where the viaduct eventually was built. I am guessing the thinking at the time was the waterfront would disrupt the least amount of businesses and homes. Later, I-5 took a further east route, (and destroyed thousands of businesses and homes) and to this day, the viaduct and I-5 are the only main north-south routes through the city. Tearing it down with no replacement, in my opinion, would be a disaster. But many in Seattle are argueing about it, and that is slowing everything down.

Last edited by pwalker; April 12th, 2007 at 03:32 AM.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 07:19 AM   #640
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Thanks for the explanation!
It clears up a lot, but still, wouldn't a nice-looking blvd still be an acceptable solution? Maybe they can put two/four-lane underpasses in the middle of the boulevard at major intersections, so the traffic wouldn't be too snarled.
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