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Old March 5th, 2011, 03:27 AM   #6501
Nexis
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Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Come on men. People were happy to jump into the cars. No one forced them.
It has more to do with people's attitudes toward public transport and also nation culture and habits in general. American society is much more individualistic than German one.
Germany is also much, much more densely populated than USA.
They ripped up miles of lines , alot business owners were opposed to this.....people didn't have any other choice but the car. Fortunately the Northeastern states have committed to 19,000 miles of restored Regional , Intercity , Suburban and Urban Rail....opinions towards Rail are more welcoming and opposition is hard to find. Most projects are very cheap and get great returns like a MOM network it will only cost 380 Million $$$ and get a projected 120,000 riders... Another project will only cost 90 Million and get at least 40,000.... Society outside the NE is slowly changing.....people are fed up with traffic and endless road expansions that cost this country a trillion $$ to subsidize over the past decade... Rail has a Return ...in Smart Growth Developments which can bring millions of $$$ to the local economies and 100s of jobs to local towns
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Old March 5th, 2011, 03:55 AM   #6502
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New Jersey Turnpike expansion, alone, will carry more extra traffic than all rail projects in the area, combined. It will help unclog I-95 that runs west of it.
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Old March 5th, 2011, 04:38 AM   #6503
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You also have to recall that despite the far higher fuel prices and light-years more extensive passenger rail (of all types) network in Europe as compared to North America, I saw an article fairly recently that said that fully 80% of all intercity trips in Europe are still by car.

I am very neutral when it comes to which modes to develop and expand vs any others, I am most interested in getting the best public benefit for the public treasure that is spent on it. They are all different.

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Old March 5th, 2011, 05:21 AM   #6504
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New Jersey Turnpike expansion, alone, will carry more extra traffic than all rail projects in the area, combined. It will help unclog I-95 that runs west of it.
Actually the MOM network and West Trenton lines will carry 160,000 people when completed later this decade. Feeding into other lines....so it will carry the same amount , probably less. The Widening project will not really help traffic , maybe in some aspects. But those 2 Rail projects will serve the communities that mostly use the NJTPK & GSP. And how do you know what the rail usage projections are? The West Trenton line will service the NJ 27 corridor.... There are other lines aswell... Ridership projections are always met , so i'm not worried about low usage. These 3 lines will service the fastest growing areas of the state and help with the bus congestion. Theres also the proposed New Brunswick LRT system that would connect a few Railways and college campuses , that will get around 40,000.. Theres also the Riverline Extensions that take the aim at South Jersey and grab people before they get to the highway areas. The South Jersey Light Rail network will add 10-20,000 per line. So were at 215,000 , which is more then the NJTPK......
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Old March 5th, 2011, 11:36 AM   #6505
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You're comparing an entire network with a single section of Turnpike. That's apples and oranges.

Somehow people think that it's all better in Europe, but we also dismantled a large amount of our railway lines. In the Netherlands hundreds of miles were dismantled, often already before 1930. In other countries the network remains but have 2 hour train intervals which are basically useless.

In Europe, 85% of the travel mileage is done by car. In the United States this is 92%. There isn't much difference overall. In the United States, bus services mostly substitute the lack of a transit system. Buses are much cheaper to operate.
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Old March 5th, 2011, 12:23 PM   #6506
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You're comparing an entire network with a single section of Turnpike. That's apples and oranges.

Somehow people think that it's all better in Europe, but we also dismantled a large amount of our railway lines. In the Netherlands hundreds of miles were dismantled, often already before 1930. In other countries the network remains but have 2 hour train intervals which are basically useless.

In Europe, 85% of the travel mileage is done by car. In the United States this is 92%. There isn't much difference overall. In the United States, bus services mostly substitute the lack of a transit system. Buses are much cheaper to operate.
Yea but the Network targets the towns that use the Turnpike the most... Buses are getting maxed out in that part of Jersey , so Rail is being restored. Rail is only restored along Dense corridors. My state is really tired of widening and building New Freeways which are unpopular and hard to fund....so thats another Reason why Rail is being pushed. Rail is not being pushed on corridors that will get low usage only dense corridors... I know you dismantled part of your network , you also have a decent system in place atm. We only have 13 corridors. Buses actually are used to fill for rail service in some areas awaiting restored Rail but its causing congestion issues and towns and small cities are demanding Rail. The MOM network targets towns that feed into NJ 33 , NJTPK , GSP , US 9 and I-195 to a small extent. The Lackawanna line targets I80 and I-380 towns in NJ and PA its currently under reconstruction. The West Trenton line would service a part of the state that is rich but commutes to NYC , mainly by the NEC which is congested or drives up NJ 27 or US 1. The Northern Branch corridor services a undeserved part of Bergen County that mainly commutes to Jersey City and Lower Manhattan...there are no highways other then the PIP on this side of the county. The Glassboro light Rail would service the congested and growing NJ 55 corridor and well supported by local towns and communities. The Bergen - Passaic Light Rail line will service the NJ 4 & I80 communities its more of a connector line between 2 cities and regional rail....that line is being redone atm due to local opposition form towns left out. The Philpsburg connections will serve the growing parts of Eastern PA , Buses are heavily congested and the Rail line will also give a spark to the local economies. These lines will service the I78 , NJ 31 , NJ 57 , US 22 , US 206 corridors which are becoming congested.... Most NJT lines have 25-45 min service , more inbound then outbound but its still decent. Ive looked at many European lines and there less then what we offer here.

Projects to be completed by 2020

MOM network
Lackawanna line (NJ section)
West Trenton line
West Trenton Riverline Extension
Northern Branch Corridor
Glassboro Light Rail line
Pennsuaken Transit Center
PATH extension to EWR
NJT HBLR 440 Extension
Bergen-Passaic Light Rail
Philpsburg Connections (2-3 lines)
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Last edited by Nexis; March 5th, 2011 at 12:35 PM.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 01:27 AM   #6507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post

In Europe, 85% of the travel mileage is done by car. In the United States this is 92%. There isn't much difference overall. In the United States, bus services mostly substitute the lack of a transit system. Buses are much cheaper to operate.
Bus service "substituting" for rail transit is like saying Sunny D substitutes orange juice.

Bus transit is cheaper to operate but also slower, more polluting, and does not encourage new development. Many routes are only served by a couple of buses an hour, whereas rail transit has much greater frequency of service and much high ridership. One can travel from London to Berlin, and explore both cities and their suburbs without the need for a car. Try doing the same in Los Angeles and New York.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 01:29 AM   #6508
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Bus service "substituting" for rail transit is like saying Sunny D substitutes orange juice.

Bus transit is cheaper to operate but also slower, more polluting, and does not encourage new development.
The Interstate network encourages much development. You don't need extra encouragement save for a few selected areas.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 01:33 AM   #6509
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The Interstate network encourages much development. You don't need extra encouragement save for a few selected areas.
Double post
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Old March 6th, 2011, 01:34 AM   #6510
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Quote:
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The Interstate network encourages much development. You don't need extra encouragement save for a few selected areas.
Strip malls, fast food joints, and truck stops count as development, but not good development. Urban rail lines encourage and make possible high density, human based development that enables walking (the horror!) and interpersonal communication.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 03:00 AM   #6511
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To be honest the South will continue down the Path of sprawl but does anyone really care? The other regions of the US are slowly moving away form Sprawl....so you can look at it that way?
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Old March 6th, 2011, 03:06 AM   #6512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
Bus service "substituting" for rail transit is like saying Sunny D substitutes orange juice.

Bus transit is cheaper to operate but also slower, more polluting, and does not encourage new development. Many routes are only served by a couple of buses an hour, whereas rail transit has much greater frequency of service and much high ridership. One can travel from London to Berlin, and explore both cities and their suburbs without the need for a car. Try doing the same in Los Angeles and New York.
The Greyhound between here and Roanoke runs twice a day.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 11:17 AM   #6513
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One can travel from London to Berlin, and explore both cities and their suburbs without the need for a car. Try doing the same in Los Angeles and New York.
While Europe has extensive intercity travel by train, don't expect a massive amount of people doing that over such distances... They use airplanes. There is no way Europeans would travel distances like Los Angeles - New York (or even Chicago - New York) by train by any significant numbers.

If Europeans travel long distances, they're either alone, on business, or with their family going on vacation. When they're on business, speed is important and they will mostly use the airplane for distances over 400 miles. If they're with their family, money and local mobility counts, hence they will be going by car up to 1000 miles.

Try comparing the cost of 3 to 5 train tickets to the cost of a car trip. The difference is huge.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 12:38 PM   #6514
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[QUOTE=hoosier;73814401One can travel from London to Berlin, and explore both cities and their suburbs without the need for a car. Try doing the same in Los Angeles and New York.[/QUOTE]

As Chris wrote most Europeans fly on such distances, some drive (if they have a lot of stuff to move or on family holiday) and very few uses trains.
People traveling by train from London to Berlin are most likely to be train enthusiasts or American tourists using EuroRail passes.

Some people from America, especially pro public transit ones, have completely screwed view of Europe, like we are some sort of transit heaven they should aspire to. Guys, we have our own problems with rails, be a bit critical.
I travel distance about 1000 miles couple of times a year and I never use train. Never. I don't know many people doing it. Distance of about 500 miles is probably maximum for most people (with exception of some high speed lines). Especially international train journeys are unpopular. Train would be much more expensive and would take much more time. Why would anyone take it? Again London - Paris/Brussels is rather exception confirming that rule.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 01:39 PM   #6515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
As Chris wrote most Europeans fly on such distances, some drive (if they have a lot of stuff to move or on family holiday) and very few uses trains.
People traveling by train from London to Berlin are most likely to be train enthusiasts or American tourists using EuroRail passes.

Some people from America, especially pro public transit ones, have completely screwed view of Europe, like we are some sort of transit heaven they should aspire to. Guys, we have our own problems with rails, be a bit critical.
I travel distance about 1000 miles couple of times a year and I never use train. Never. I don't know many people doing it. Distance of about 500 miles is probably maximum for most people (with exception of some high speed lines). Especially international train journeys are unpopular. Train would be much more expensive and would take much more time. Why would anyone take it? Again London - Paris/Brussels is rather exception confirming that rule.
Some patterns are remarkably similar in both sides of the Atlantic. "Summer peak drive" exists both here and there. Perhaps it is even more critical in Europe than in US.

Families travelling on long (1 week and longer) vacations often take long, multi-day trips from Northern Europe to "sunny" destinations in Spain, France and Italy. There is a massive exodus of people on cars, though, as in US, the average occupancy of cars on worst summer weekends is more than double the average occupancy in a normal day.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 02:11 PM   #6516
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I think for Brumtonion, you might like to live in Nevada. Very few squiggly roads. Wow, someone really has an issue with roads that aren't straight. Just so you know some highways in the U.S. of A. have some curvy bits. Maybe not like in England, but from time to time a motorist may encounter a hill or even a "mountain" that they have to reconnoiter with. Seriously someone not only has a problem non straight roads in their own country but thinks that somehow highways here are like God's gift to mankind, drive around Orlando, it's great, you'll probably wonder why an interchange in Birmingham UK has as many lanes as one at Disney World, which I here is somewhat popular with tourists.
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Old March 6th, 2011, 02:27 PM   #6517
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I think for some people who look at trains as the answer to their transit problems, they have to look at their transit problems. Why in the U.S. we don't have HSR in New England and the Mid Atlantic, Chicago and it's vicinity, and in California is amazingly dumb. We're a big country and these would be the areas that it would work in, but in some places it will never work. If we need 5 or 6 lane highways from Montgomery to Mobile Alabama great, just let me in San Francisco go from here to LA by train if me and my fellow citizens want it. The thing that pisses me off in this country is how train versus car travel is such a "political red versus blue" issue. We all don't live in the same place, don't expect us to get around the same way. By the way when you are paying 5 or 6 bucks a gallon or more for gas in a couple of months, I'll still have my 6 block WALK to work
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Old March 6th, 2011, 02:36 PM   #6518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
As Chris wrote most Europeans fly on such distances, some drive (if they have a lot of stuff to move or on family holiday) and very few uses trains.
People traveling by train from London to Berlin are most likely to be train enthusiasts or American tourists using EuroRail passes.

Some people from America, especially pro public transit ones, have completely screwed view of Europe, like we are some sort of transit heaven they should aspire to. Guys, we have our own problems with rails, be a bit critical.
I travel distance about 1000 miles couple of times a year and I never use train. Never. I don't know many people doing it. Distance of about 500 miles is probably maximum for most people (with exception of some high speed lines). Especially international train journeys are unpopular. Train would be much more expensive and would take much more time. Why would anyone take it? Again London - Paris/Brussels is rather exception confirming that rule.
For the Record , we don't want a European system.....were building a large scale system in this region...and thats all i care about. Outside the NE , build as many highways as you want....but in this region Rail is priority.... The Railway towns grew faster then the Auto towns , people are tired of traffic and are changing to Rail / Transit. Regional Rail ridership is 1.1 Million in NYC region and growing fast..... There aren't any lines here in the NE that are 1000 miles mostly 200-500 miles....
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Old March 6th, 2011, 03:11 PM   #6519
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Regional Rail ridership is 1.1 Million in NYC region and growing fast.....
That's 550.000 people out of a population of 22.000.000
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Old March 6th, 2011, 03:13 PM   #6520
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That's 550.000 people out of a population of 22.000.000
Overall Transit ridership is 13 Million , which a big chunk....it grew by 3 million this past decade if i'm not mistaken. Its expected to hit 17 million by 2020....other regions are growing aswell... Penn station is used by 600,000 daily , Grand Central is used by 150,000 , Jamaica station is used by 200,000 , Newark Penn Station is used by 120,000 and Hoboken is used by 70,000 daily....so its more then 550,000 people. Its 1.1 million for all 3 systems. Regional Rail ridership is 980,000 , but the PATH , SI Railway are labeled Railways by the FRA , then theres the PATCO.
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