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Old February 24th, 2012, 09:37 PM   #7841
Tommy Boy
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Some places in big american cities with heavy traffic congestions have small interchanges with alot of traffic jams. They need to build bigger interchanges. In Texas they have the famoused HIGH FIVE INTERCHANGES. When will it come High Ten interchanges or atleast High Six Interchanges. Look in Los Angeles, traffic jams and small interchanges all over L.A metropolitan.

Caltran needs to build up the highway systems around L.A and bigger interchanges.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 01:02 AM   #7842
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Does INRIX's 100 Most Congested Metro Summary do a good job listing the most and least congested cities in America? Looking through INRIX rankings it looks like Miami does a good job managing congestion (7th most populous city, 15th most congested).


On the other hand a city like Minneapolis has relatively bad congestion (16th most populous metro, 11th most congested).


But looking closer, does INRIX make a fair comparison? In Miami's case INRIX is analyzing highways that are very far away from downtown Miami. When you are stuck in gridlock traffic 7 miles from downtown is there any comfort that the highways near Fort Pierce are traveling smoothly over 100 miles away? On the other hand, the Minneapolis network that was rated is very concentrated and only branch out about 25 miles from the city center.

I think the biggest problem is defining the size of a metro region for these rankings. What would be a better method? It's just hard to believe that Miami is ranked right next to Denver in traffic congestion.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 02:01 AM   #7843
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Harbor Freeway in Los Angeles:

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Old February 25th, 2012, 09:32 PM   #7844
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Minneapolis and Boston have problems because of the use of cloverleaf interchanges and the lack of replacing them with weaveless(that a word?) interchanges. A look at satelite photos of these areas will show an abundance of cloverleaf interchanges which do not work well on busy roads.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 10:15 PM   #7845
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Quite a number of those Minneapolis locations have only 2 lanes each way.
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Old February 26th, 2012, 12:15 AM   #7846
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A more accurate comparison would be to analyze the congestion within a 25 mile radius of the city center. The highest average commute time of any major American city is in Nashville with an average commute of 25.2 miles (road miles driven, not as the bird flies). Basically your average American commuter isn't willing to drive 25 miles to get to work so why analyze highways that are over 100 miles away from downtown Miami to determine Miami's congestion rating?

Rating the highways within the shaded 25 mile radius of the two cities would lead to a closer apples to apples comparison.


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Old February 28th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #7847
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I-70 in Kansas City.

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122711_I70WB_DSC_0166.pic by MoDOT KC 4, on Flickr

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122711_I70EB_DSC_0163.pic by MoDOT KC 4, on Flickr
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:23 AM   #7848
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For some reason, the new arrows don't look right to me. I guess it takes some getting used to.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 10:33 AM   #7849
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the design is poor, it makes it look like you can get to Wichita from both middle and right through lanes
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Old February 29th, 2012, 10:36 AM   #7850
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But if you divide the two destinations, it looks like Topeka can only be reached via the leftmost lanes, which is not true either.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 02:49 PM   #7851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But if you divide the two destinations, it looks like Topeka can only be reached via the leftmost lanes, which is not true either.
It actually make sense to suggest using leftmost lanes for Topeka as the right lanes will be used by the exiting/joining traffic.
I find American signage very logical. You have to read it from right to left. First destinations exiting now (here Des Moines), the one to the left goes next (in this case Wichita) and destination on the left hand side (Topeka) is straight on. Simple.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #7852
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Little by little Americans begin to use EU standard for directing traffic flows on MW. That is the way how the Old Continent has been functioning for years and there are not problems with those arrows, not at all.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #7853
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Kansas City, arguably the US metro best served with highways in the whole country!
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Old February 29th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #7854
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I have to agree with Crazyknightsfan's criticism, which actually gets at the heart of an unanticipated problem with arrow-per-lane diagrammatics. Diagrammatics in general are meant to incorporate information for the straight-ahead direction and at most one exit. They become very difficult to design when they are required to incorporate information for multiple exits.

In this particular case, the sign encourages Topeka-bound traffic to make unnecessary lane changes to the left to avoid putative lane drops for Wichita when in fact all three lanes go through to Topeka. If an arrow-per-lane diagrammatic is to be used at this exit, then this problem can be fixed only by eliminating Wichita from the sign altogether. But such a solution would cause other problems because the exits for Des Moines and Wichita are closely spaced and the Wichita exit needs advance signing. If this is provided downstream of the Des Moines exit, it is too close to the ramp. If it is provided upstream of the Des Moines exit, it might confuse Wichita-bound drivers into taking the Des Moines exit because Wichita is the "next" exit (it is fairly unusual for consecutive exits to have overlapping advance guide signing). (The alternate remedy of adding a distance to the Wichita block, to indicate that it is a destination reached by exiting, would not answer the problem of false lane assignment.)

The new arrow-per-lane diagrammatics don't handle multiple closely spaced exits well. And since they can be exit direction signs as well, unlike the old stippled-arrow diagrammatics which were advance guide signs only, the problem is even worse.

Fortunately, in this case, the MUTCD does not actually require an arrow-per-lane diagrammatic. Such diagrammatics are actually required only for major interchanges that (1) have an exit with option lane that carries the through route or (2) involve splits with an option lane. In this particular case, I-70/I-435 is a major interchange, and it has an exit with an option lane, but the use of an arrow-per-lane diagrammatic is not required because the exit does not carry the through route (which is I-70 in this case) and this interchange is not a split.

So, here a diagrammatic is an option, not a requirement, and since it is one that causes problems as currently designed, it would be better to substitute different signs. Here is what I would recommend:

* Final advance guide sign gantry before both Exits 8A and 8B (left to right): (1) Pull-through for I-70 westbound/Topeka, (2) advance guide sign for I-435 southbound/Wichita (1/2 mile), (3) lane drop advance guide sign for I-435 northbound/Des Moines (lane drop advance guide signs don't have to have a distance if the exit is less than 1/4 mile away)

* Exit gantry for Exit 8B (left to right): (1) Pull-through sign for I-70/Topeka; (2) advance guide sign for I-435/Wichita (1/4 mile): (3) two-lane lane-drop exit direction sign for I-435/Des Moines

* Exit gantry for Exit 8A: Same as existing installation.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 10:43 PM   #7855
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When there is one lane for straight on and right turning it is only way to use these arrows

Last edited by geor; March 1st, 2012 at 09:10 PM.
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Old March 1st, 2012, 02:20 AM   #7856
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To put JN Winkler's post into graphical form...

Quote:
Originally Posted by J N Winkler View Post
* Final advance guide sign gantry before both Exits 8A and 8B (left to right): (1) Pull-through for I-70 westbound/Topeka, (2) advance guide sign for I-435 southbound/Wichita (1/2 mile), (3) lane drop advance guide sign for I-435 northbound/Des Moines (lane drop advance guide signs don't have to have a distance if the exit is less than 1/4 mile away)

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Originally Posted by J N Winkler View Post
* Exit gantry for Exit 8B (left to right): (1) Pull-through sign for I-70/Topeka; (2) advance guide sign for I-435/Wichita (1/4 mile): (3) two-lane lane-drop exit direction sign for I-435/Des Moines

I found that photo of the I-70/I-435 guide signs very interesting because this particular signing situation is quite common in California and if (and it's a big IF) California adopts the arrow-per-lane signage, I was curious to see how they would handle this situation.
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Old March 1st, 2012, 03:33 AM   #7857
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This discussion makes my head hurt.
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Old March 1st, 2012, 03:37 AM   #7858
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I can see argument for precision but don't you guys exaggerate with such splitting hair in four (as we say in Polish)?

The current signage honestly doesn't seems wrong to me, I definitely wouldn't get lost. OK, I did drive a lot in the US but how many stranded first time European tourists do you expect in Kansas City? For most Americans the currents signs are quite easy to understand.
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Old March 1st, 2012, 03:47 AM   #7859
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I-40 in Nashville

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I-40 West at Exit 213 - Nashville by Adam's Journey, on Flickr

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I-40 West - Exit 204B&A - TN 155 Briley Parkway by Adam's Journey, on Flickr


This interchange is now complete

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Nashville International Airport (BNA) Exit by riffsyphon1024, on Flickr



I-40 near the airport





I-40/I-24 Interchange
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Old March 1st, 2012, 07:01 AM   #7860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J N Winkler View Post
Fortunately, in this case, the MUTCD does not actually require an arrow-per-lane diagrammatic. Such diagrammatics are actually required only for major interchanges that (1) have an exit with option lane that carries the through route or (2) involve splits with an option lane. In this particular case, I-70/I-435 is a major interchange, and it has an exit with an option lane, but the use of an arrow-per-lane diagrammatic is not required because the exit does not carry the through route (which is I-70 in this case) and this interchange is not a split.
Wait a minute. The I-70/I-435 North exit, where the arrow-per-lane sign is installed does have an option lane that carries the through route. The #3 lane (counting from the left) IS an option lane for I-70 or I-435 North. In that case, isn't an arrow-per-lane sign required per the 2009 MUTCD Sec 2E.20?
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