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Old June 11th, 2012, 05:42 AM   #8101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
I didn't realize New Orleans was that bad , wasn't the issue with the Big Easy?
New Orleans was mostly developed at around the same time period as Boston and Philadelphia, so most of the city is geared to pedestrians rather than cars. In certain popular neighborhoods such as the French Quarter, parking is expensive and hard to find.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 10:16 AM   #8102
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Originally Posted by Xusein View Post
I find it hard to believe that 26 million people use transit in the corridors you mentioned, but if you have any sources, that would be nice. Either way, plenty of people who take public transportation also have cars, it's not really an either or situation.
As usual, Nexis compares the number of daily boardings to the amount of population, and then claims public transport has an edge over driving.

Which of course is not the right way to compare transit usage with car usage. Most people use the car more than once daily (5 - 7 one-way trips per household on average) and someone using transit to and from work counts for 2 boardings. Someone who uses a bus+train counts for 4 boardings. Besides that, people travel more than just to-and-from work, as a matter of fact only about 30% of the daily freeway traffic volumes are commuters to and from work.

In other words... the usual overinflated figures of transit usage.

As you can see at the U.S. Census factfinder transit usage amongst commuters to and from work in greater New York is 30.5%.

This is ONLY to and from work and does not include other types of trips, where public transport is less likely to be used. The actual transit usage (passenger miles) is therefore lower than that figure.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 05:03 PM   #8103
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I don't know what Nexis is smoking but I want to try it. Even in London (UK) with vastly better developed public transport than in "coastal Northeast" the share of public transport and driving are almost equal at around 40% both (the rest is walking and cycling)
Do you seriously want me to believe that more people use PT in Washington or Baltimore than in London???
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Old June 11th, 2012, 07:27 PM   #8104
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This argument is silly. Who cares if more people drive or more take public transportation? Fact is, both are useful and have a place in our cities/society.

Public transit isn't for suckers. It's a very useful tool to get around - in many cases it is more practical than driving. In other cases, driving makes more sense.

Also, there is a direct correlation of transit ridership, and service offered. In other words, the better the transit coverage and frequency, the more people will ride it. As more and more cities build and expand their transit networks, more people will take transit.

It's interesting to see what the future will bring. New technologies will bring about new possibilities. For instance, self-driving cars have the potential of making the road network essentially a vast PRT system, with cars driving to pick you up on demand (called from your smartphone perhaps).

Cars and trains are just tools. Who cares which is 'bigger' (better)?
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Old June 11th, 2012, 08:17 PM   #8105
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Originally Posted by jchernin View Post
This argument is silly. Who cares if more people drive or more take public transportation? Fact is, both are useful and have a place in our cities/society.

Public transit isn't for suckers. It's a very useful tool to get around - in many cases it is more practical than driving. In other cases, driving makes more sense.

Also, there is a direct correlation of transit ridership, and service offered. In other words, the better the transit coverage and frequency, the more people will ride it. As more and more cities build and expand their transit networks, more people will take transit.

It's interesting to see what the future will bring. New technologies will bring about new possibilities. For instance, self-driving cars have the potential of making the road network essentially a vast PRT system, with cars driving to pick you up on demand (called from your smartphone perhaps).

Cars and trains are just tools. Who cares which is 'bigger' (better)?
Finally, someone who is talking some sense here.

Let's face it, depending on cars for transportation will not work for everybody (esp senior citizens, people without drivers licenses, or the means to afford a car. or are unable to drive because of health reasons) however public transportation is also not for everybody (such as salespeople/electricians/plumbers/contractors who have to travel to different locations within the same city to meet with their clients or to get to their jobsite). That's why it is absolutly crucial to have both a decent public transit system and a decent road network and anyone who says otherwise is full of sh*t and needs to get their head examined.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 12:52 AM   #8106
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Cars and trains are just tools. Who cares which is 'bigger' (better)?
I absolutely don't care. And I'm all for development of both.
But I do care if someone gets facts wrong and tries to build his thesis around it.

I understand that some PT enthusiasts in the US may feel a bit abandoned by the most of society and the mainstream media but it is not reason for using false facts in their arguments for better PT.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 04:35 AM   #8107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis

Its actually 19.4 Million....I used the wrong APTA numbers...it could be slightly higher i only did the major systems...it could rise to 38.6 Million by 2030 due to Gas and Population increases... NYC alone is 10 million , the suburbs NJ - NY - CT another 3 million...includes the Satilite cities like Newark , Stamford , etc

http://www.apta.com/resources/statis...rship-APTA.pdf
The public transit vs. highway debate seems so tired. It always seems that the people who like the bus always just blindly argue why everybody should be herded onto the bus, and the people who like highways always state that the way out of congestion is to pave the world.

In the future, pt is probably going to become more prevalent in the US, but I wouldn't expect a radical change in behavior, and the car will likely still be the dominant mode of transport.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 06:02 AM   #8108
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What does that actually have to do with it? I'm guessing you're pro-PT. Well, if you think the 700 million for the A4 (will be used by 100.000+ cars everyday) is much: have a look at some (failed) PT plans in NL.

All I have to say is Noord-Zuid lijn, Betuweroute, HSL. Want more?

And the A4 is currently U/C
A4 has more holes in it then swiss cheese. Only took 50-60 years to build the entire motorway. Meantime, costs have skyrocketed for construction while alternative transportation options became more practical.
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Old June 12th, 2012, 02:22 PM   #8109
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Originally Posted by AUchamps View Post
Only took 50-60 years to build the entire motorway.
Correction: it takes about 5 years to build, it took 50 years of talking... And besides the environmental hippies no one's proud of that.

PS: We're going off-topic here
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Old June 13th, 2012, 05:26 AM   #8110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keokiracer View Post
Correction: it takes about 5 years to build, it took 50 years of talking... And besides the environmental hippies no one's proud of that.

PS: We're going off-topic here
I'm just saying, in this day in age with environmental hippies in all Western countries that know how to use the legal system to delay highways, it's better to go with Public Transit. Path of least resistance. The same reasons A4 was delayed is the same reasons that the Outer Perimeter in Atlanta will never be built. Environmental Hippies and middle/upper class suburbanites who don't want new highways to be built.
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But what is Strumatic, we have to define what Strumatic is, a word that refers to the experience of driving/travelling on a superior motorway called Struma motorway or to the ultimative psychedelic road experience only possible on brand new roads and most effective when there´s snow outside so that the shiny crashbarriers shine even more and reflect the snow and the asphalt looks even better. I must think of it´s best definition first. -Radi Click
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Old June 13th, 2012, 11:20 PM   #8111
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What are HOV lanes?
You have to have a minimum number of persons on a car to travel on them?!
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Old June 13th, 2012, 11:56 PM   #8112
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And depending on which metro area you live in they (HOV lanes) are usually useless to the masses. Which is why I guess South Florida converted the ones on I-95 to HOT lanes. When I lived there the HOV were usually empty with a few stray cars here and there and of course the single occupied cars who decide they can't abide by rules. Maybe on other interstates in other cities they work as intended?
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Old June 14th, 2012, 12:10 AM   #8113
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Los Angeles has the highest amount/percentage of carpoolers, but the lanes carry only 1,300 vehicles per peak hour on average. That's about 40% lower than the general purpose lanes.
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Old June 14th, 2012, 04:06 AM   #8114
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I've heard that in Washington DC, the HOV lanes work pretty well, probably because of all the liberals there who believe in that stuff. People there even prostitute themselves out by the side of the road, for commuters looking for a faster trip to work. They call it "slugging". And with fewer rapes than you would expect.

Last edited by Paddington; June 14th, 2012 at 08:27 PM.
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Old June 14th, 2012, 09:48 AM   #8115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScraperDude View Post
And depending on which metro area you live in they (HOV lanes) are usually useless to the masses. Which is why I guess South Florida converted the ones on I-95 to HOT lanes. When I lived there the HOV were usually empty with a few stray cars here and there and of course the single occupied cars who decide they can't abide by rules. Maybe on other interstates in other cities they work as intended?
For some odd reason, people are scared of them.
Where I grew up, they had just built HOV lanes as I was learning to drive. First in Norfolk, then in Hampton and Newport News. What so few people seemed to realize is that, outside of rush hour, anyone could use those lanes. Or maybe everyone was scared to miss their exit, I dunno....
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Old June 14th, 2012, 10:06 AM   #8116
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HOV restrictions vary by region. For instance virtually all HOV lanes in the Los Angeles metropolitan area have a 24/7 HOV restriction, while they have only a rush hour restriction in the San Francisco Bay Area, and many other metropolitan areas. The L.A. system is the best used overall, but most other HOV facilities have significant spare capacity, so that is why you see them being converted into HOT lanes, to maximize the use of the existing roadway capacity, while preserving the free-flow privilege for HOV users.

The nation's best used HOV facility is the Harbor Transitway along I-110 in Los Angeles. It has 4 lanes and carries 56,000 vehicles per day. However, it is still significantly below the usage of the general purpose lanes. If it was as busy as the GP lanes, it would have carried 80,000 or 90,000 vehicles per day, especially considering there are no semis on HOV lanes.
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Old June 14th, 2012, 01:25 PM   #8117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
I've heard that in Washington, the HOV lanes work pretty well, probably because of all the liberals there who believe in that stuff. People there even prostitute themselves out by the side of the road, for commuters looking for a faster trip to work. They call it "slugging". And with fewer rapes than you would expect.
The problem with Washington metro is that it has a sector or an entire freaking 2-digit highway that is entirely classified as HOV on peak times. Quite unacceptable on my standards.
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Old June 14th, 2012, 08:13 PM   #8118
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Originally Posted by Paddington View Post
I've heard that in Washington, the HOV lanes work pretty well, probably because of all the liberals there who believe in that stuff. People there even prostitute themselves out by the side of the road, for commuters looking for a faster trip to work. They call it "slugging". And with fewer rapes than you would expect.
In the San Francisco Bay Area, this is called "Casual Carpooling" and it is gaining in popularity. There are designated areas (usually around BART [Bay Area Rapid Transit] and other transit stations) where people can look for and give rides to strangers. Yes, I know that sounds odd but it does work, especially if it means the driver can use the carpool lanes and cross bridges at reduced toll rates ($2.50 versus $5-6).

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The problem with Washington metro is that it has a sector or an entire freaking 2-digit highway that is entirely classified as HOV on peak times. Quite unacceptable on my standards.
I believe Paddington was talking about Washington state not Washington DC. I don't know of any HOV-only freeways in the state of Washington.

Edit: Just noticed that Paddington clarified which Washington he was referring to.

Last edited by myosh_tino; June 14th, 2012 at 09:30 PM.
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Old June 14th, 2012, 08:23 PM   #8119
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Slugging does happen in the Washington, D.C., area. Even non-"liberal" parts.

And the segment of I-66 between the Beltway and the G.W. Parkway (in the not-particularly-liberal-especially-in-1982 state of Virginia) has been HOV-only, during rush hours, since it opened in 1982. One of the first HOV restrictions, if not the first, in the country.
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Old June 15th, 2012, 03:48 AM   #8120
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And the segment of I-66 between the Beltway and the G.W. Parkway (in the not-particularly-liberal-especially-in-1982 state of Virginia) has been HOV-only, during rush hours, since it opened in 1982. One of the first HOV restrictions, if not the first, in the country.
And it is comparatively uncrowded during rush hour, according to Scott Kozel's site. Since it's 2x2 through Arlington, just imagine if there were no HOV restrictions on the road...

The very first HOV facility in the country, only a few miles to the southeast, was built on I-395 and now extends south on I-95 through Prince William County.

(Source: Wikipedia user Mariordo)
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