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Old April 22nd, 2013, 11:53 PM   #8861
HAWC1506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttownfeen View Post
I don't think most Americans would grasp the different between an "advised" speed limit, and a "mandatory" speed limit. All speed limits are mandatory here but are only treaty as a general guideline by drivers (me included).
Washington state uses yellow advisory speed limit signs for "speed zones". Often on exit slips and sharp curves.

Minnesota's variable speed limit system is all advisory speed limits. Their electronic signs display a yellow number with "MPH" at the bottom, I believe.

So it's already in use. Perhaps not obeyed, but it exists widely :P
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 02:49 AM   #8862
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More Tolls on Interstates

What are your thoughts on more tolls on highways? Here in FL it was recently announced that we should expect tolls on pretty much every interstate highway w/in the state in the not too distant future. At first I thought that was ridiculous that then we couldn't really drive anywhere without being forced to pay a toll. Then on second thought it might help to change some of that very flawed and pervasive thinking most Americans have that "roads are free, but trains should completely pay for themselves". Most people don't realize they are already paying income tax to supplement roads, gas taxes, some tolls, property taxes, in addition to their $500 a month car payment, $150 a month for insurance and $150 a month for gas.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 03:04 AM   #8863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Really? I've never seen a simple red circle (such as in the photos above) used in the States to mean prohibited. In the States, a red circle with a diagonal slash through it means prohibited.
Here mandatory signs has a red circle:


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Old April 23rd, 2013, 05:53 AM   #8864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrtn2 View Post
Here mandatory signs has a red circle:


He's right. Restrictive signs in the U.S. usually contain a red circle with a slash through it. It's not ideal since it covers up half the pictogram.

I'm surprised the signset you posted has mandatory actions in red. It makes more logical sense to have them be blue...Are those standard South American signs?
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 06:08 AM   #8865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrtn2 View Post
Here mandatory signs has a red circle:


Those kinds of signs are also the standard here in Indonesia
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 06:11 AM   #8866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAWC1506 View Post

I'm surprised the signset you posted has mandatory actions in red. It makes more logical sense to have them be blue...Are those standard South American signs?
Not, Argentine and Uruguay has blue ones, Chile has both blue and red and Brazil and Colombia has just red ones.

That's brazilian:
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 06:25 AM   #8867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozenBDJ View Post
Those kinds of signs are also the standard here in Indonesia
???

Blue or Red ?

image hosted on flickr

Indonesian Forum.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 06:58 AM   #8868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrtn2 View Post
???

Blue or Red ?

image hosted on flickr

Indonesian Forum.
At the DPS Airport:

see that red sign?
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 07:00 AM   #8869
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Yes but this isnt a mandatory sign.

This sign its common in Europe too.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 11:32 AM   #8870
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Whether or not a sign is mandatory is usually determined by the shape, not color in Europe signage.

in general:
round: mandatory signs (restrictions, directions)
triangular: warning signs
rectangular: information

The color of red generally means something is limited or forbidden. Blue means something is allowed or enforced.

Though that's more a general rule of thumb, not an exact definition. You might find a lot of exceptions.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 04:11 PM   #8871
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In the U.K., all mandatory signs are circular (unless text based). Almost all are white background with red border. Prohibitions have the diagonal red line. There are a few odd exceptions such as minimum speed limit (very rare), clearway (blue background with 2 red diagonals), national speed limit (white and black), and the directional signs (blue background with white border).

Note the difference between these two:




One forbids cycling, and one advises that there are cyclists.

As far as I know, most of the EU follow the same principle with regards to circular mandatory, triangular warning and rectangular information. The usage of colours and diagonal lines may vary.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 07:15 PM   #8872
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In Australia, any signs with mandatory instructions on them are on a rounded rectangle with a white background.



Warning or advisory signs are black text or symbols on a yellow diamond or rectangle



Seems easy enough to remember, but we were talking about the VMS in Washington right?

I didn't really get the full gist of the first post - was this just to see what the European style symbols would look like, or are the VMSes going to be running with those symbols from the day the road opens?
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 07:17 PM   #8873
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Interstate 75 managed lanes, Georgia

The I-75 will get a reversible tolled lane in the median of the freeway between McDonough and the I-75/I-675 split, south of Atlanta. The reversible toll facility will be 12 miles long. Construction will begin in 2014.

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Old April 23rd, 2013, 08:31 PM   #8874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mubd View Post
I didn't really get the full gist of the first post - was this just to see what the European style symbols would look like, or are the VMSes going to be running with those symbols from the day the road opens?
The VMSs were tested with European signs under closed-road conditions, just to see how they would look on the signs.

It would likely take federal approval to actually use them, which is unlikely in the near future. However, the MUTCD is gradually introducing more graphical signs so I think it's only a matter of time before they make the switch.

Also, one thing I've noticed about making those signs is that if the VMS is square in proportion, you can maximize the size of an equilateral triangle while still allowing for a "cue word" to be fit underneath which would aid understanding of the pictograms.

If you were to maximize a yellow diamond on a square VMS, it would result in half the area of the VMS being wasted while still being unable to fit a line of text at the bottom.

Just some geometric observations...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exethalion View Post
Note the difference between these two:




One forbids cycling, and one advises that there are cyclists.

As far as I know, most of the EU follow the same principle with regards to circular mandatory, triangular warning and rectangular information. The usage of colours and diagonal lines may vary.
I find that it makes more sense to have a mandatory actions be in blue than red. Red tends to imply a "warning" or "restrictive" meaning.

The U.S. seems to have an inconsistent approach of white for both mandatory actions and prohibited/restrictive actions. For example, the mandatory "keep right" sign is white (to add to the confusion, there are 3 variants). But the restrictive "speed limit" is also white, which doesn't quite make sense for speed limits because it's not mandatory to travel at the speed limit.






We've also got the white signs with the red circle with a slash through it for signs like "No left turn", but "No turns" is completely white.




And then a height limit is in yellow...signifying that it's a warning, not a restriction, even though if you keep driving you're likely to hit the low overpass.


Last edited by HAWC1506; April 23rd, 2013 at 08:56 PM.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 11:22 PM   #8875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mubd View Post
Those signs look great!

However, wouldn't there be some confusion amongst motorists who mightn't understand what the number in the red circle means? Some folk (especially tourists) might also think it's a metric speed limit.



I remember being at traffic court once and some British immigrant had passed a variable speed limit sign when it had just changed from 80km/h to 40km/h in a tunnel and ended up being caught by the speed camera. The fine here for that amount of speeding is a hell of a lot. The guy got off.
In the UK there is a built in delay between the limit change and enforcement to prevent people being caught out unintentionally. It also helps to prevent panic braking in such situations.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 11:54 PM   #8876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HAWC1506 View Post
The VMSs were tested with European signs under closed-road conditions, just to see how they would look on the signs.

It would likely take federal approval to actually use them, which is unlikely in the near future. However, the MUTCD is gradually introducing more graphical signs so I think it's only a matter of time before they make the switch.

Also, one thing I've noticed about making those signs is that if the VMS is square in proportion, you can maximize the size of an equilateral triangle while still allowing for a "cue word" to be fit underneath which would aid understanding of the pictograms.

If you were to maximize a yellow diamond on a square VMS, it would result in half the area of the VMS being wasted while still being unable to fit a line of text at the bottom.

Just some geometric observations...



I find that it makes more sense to have a mandatory actions be in blue than red. Red tends to imply a "warning" or "restrictive" meaning.

The U.S. seems to have an inconsistent approach of white for both mandatory actions and prohibited/restrictive actions. For example, the mandatory "keep right" sign is white (to add to the confusion, there are 3 variants). But the restrictive "speed limit" is also white, which doesn't quite make sense for speed limits because it's not mandatory to travel at the speed limit.






We've also got the white signs with the red circle with a slash through it for signs like "No left turn", but "No turns" is completely white.




And then a height limit is in yellow...signifying that it's a warning, not a restriction, even though if you keep driving you're likely to hit the low overpass.

In the uk advisory speed limit signs look like this and are usually seen with signs for bends



Also in the UK, I've also seen US-type speed limits signs used by contractors on the A19 using electronic speed checkers.



It's not a legally enforceable sign, so it has to be used as well as the standard European convention speed limit signs which have to be in place for a speed limit to be enforced.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 12:09 AM   #8877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirfreelancealot View Post

Also in the UK, I've also seen US-type speed limits signs used by contractors on the A19 using electronic speed checkers.
That sign took a wrong turn in the Atlantic and returned to the motherland
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Old April 24th, 2013, 09:49 AM   #8878
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This equipment was most probably bought from a US supplier.
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Old April 24th, 2013, 02:37 PM   #8879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The I-75 will get a reversible tolled lane in the median of the freeway between McDonough and the I-75/I-675 split...
The typical cross sections as depicted on page 26 of the DEIS show the lanes being placed on the current southbound side, with the current northbound lanes undisturbed except at access points. What's interesting about this is that most of the interchange bridges over I-75 between I-675 and the '80's-vintage 2x4 section at Forsyth were replaced in the '90's and since by new structures apparently designed to accommodate a standard 2x5 configuration, like this: http://goo.gl/maps/G5X1G . That means that all of the space under the bridges southbound will be taken by the toll lanes, with no room left for additional general lanes.

While the DEIS asserts that "The proposed project does not preclude consideration of any alternatives of other projects ongoing in the project corridor," that depends on one's definition of "ongoing": Georgia's Freight & Logistics Plan calls for more lanes on I-75 between Atlanta and Macon in order to expedite truck movements, though they're not programmed until 2031-2040 due to funding considerations. Meanwhile, I've noticed on my infrequent trips through that corridor, traffic can clog up at random times and for no obvious reason near Locust Grove, just south of the project area.

Maybe someday they'll end up putting segregated truck lanes next to the reversible roadway.

Last edited by Tom 958; April 24th, 2013 at 02:55 PM.
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Old April 26th, 2013, 08:25 PM   #8880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom 958 View Post
The typical cross sections as depicted on page 26 of the DEIS show the lanes being placed on the current southbound side, with the current northbound lanes undisturbed except at access points. What's interesting about this is that most of the interchange bridges over I-75 between I-675 and the '80's-vintage 2x4 section at Forsyth were replaced in the '90's and since by new structures apparently designed to accommodate a standard 2x5 configuration, like this: http://goo.gl/maps/G5X1G . That means that all of the space under the bridges southbound will be taken by the toll lanes, with no room left for additional general lanes.

While the DEIS asserts that "The proposed project does not preclude consideration of any alternatives of other projects ongoing in the project corridor," that depends on one's definition of "ongoing": Georgia's Freight & Logistics Plan calls for more lanes on I-75 between Atlanta and Macon in order to expedite truck movements, though they're not programmed until 2031-2040 due to funding considerations. Meanwhile, I've noticed on my infrequent trips through that corridor, traffic can clog up at random times and for no obvious reason near Locust Grove, just south of the project area.

Maybe someday they'll end up putting segregated truck lanes next to the reversible roadway.
They just need to quit with this HOT lane bullshit and just add 2 lanes in each direction. This corridor is basically like I-85 and I-75 North were like in the 1980's. They got it right on I-85 South by adding a lane or two in each direction down to Newnan.
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