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Old November 12th, 2013, 05:51 AM   #9221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
That's a bit of a contraband subject in this section of SSC I'm afraid.
Thanks Road_UK. I'm familiar with the other thread. Any fear of comparison is childish in my opinion. We have two to four times the fatality rate as European countries and, seemingly, much greater congestion. If EU is doing something better, which it appears they are, then we should be learning from them and screaming at AASHTO & NACTO and state DOTs to fix things, not sticking our heads in the sand and screaming that we're afraid of comparisons.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 04:17 PM   #9222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
That's a bit of a contraband subject in this section of SSC I'm afraid. A thread dedicated to EU v USA highways has recently been shut down as this subject has been deemed unhelpful in bilateral relationships between our two great continents.

In plain English: my dick is bigger than yours themes are strongly discouraged.
Speaking as the one who asked for that ridiculous thread to be shut down (and it's not as if it was new; people kept reviving it), I'd say there's a difference between ridiculous polls where 90 percent or more of the voters really aren't familiar enough with both systems to vote knowledgeably (so they'll mostly vote for their own system, unless they're annoyed at it because, I don't know, they hit a lot of potholes that day), and statistics on efficiency.

That said, what do you mean, jsfox, by "efficiency"?

EDIT (on rereading the last few posts): DO we have two to four times the fatality rate? If so, that's a problem, but I didn't know that was the case. I thought we were comparable. I doubt American roads, outside urban areas, are more congested (on average) than European ones. The difference between our population distribution (not just density but all those cities close together) and theirs would lead me to expect the reverse.

But we have at least one Dutchman here who I'm sure can quote statistics from memory.
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Last edited by Penn's Woods; November 12th, 2013 at 04:25 PM.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 04:35 PM   #9223
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STATISTICS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

You can sort by "fatalities per 100,000 inhabitants per year" or "...per 100,000 motor vehicles." By either measure, U.S. roads are safer than, many countries in the Balkans and eastern Europe, and by one of those measures safer than, for example, Belgium.

So I'm not sure where that two-to-four-times-the-fatalities idea comes from....

EDIT: It would appear that the British are among the safest drivers in the world, notwithstanding they observe the practice, considered dangerous by some on this forum, of driving on the wrong side of the road.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 07:39 PM   #9224
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Some of my shots of I-40 in Arizona






















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Old November 12th, 2013, 07:44 PM   #9225
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Old November 12th, 2013, 07:50 PM   #9226
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Last few from this stretch


















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Old November 12th, 2013, 07:55 PM   #9227
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Nice. Quite a bit of trucking there.

Interesting exit along I-96 in Grand Rapids:
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Old November 12th, 2013, 10:38 PM   #9228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
That said, what do you mean, jsfox, by "efficiency"?

DO we have two to four times the fatality rate?
Thanks for your rational comments! :-)

By efficiency I'm referring to lane handling capacity. Cars per hour, average drive times, etc. I've driven quite a bit in both U.S. and EU. It seems that EU motorways are generally more efficient. That they can handle more vehicles per lane without choking to a stop than U.S. motorways (though the biggest traffic jams I've ever seen have been on the A1 south of Florence, IT). I assume this has a lot to do with left lane manners and better merging, but that's a guess. Another way to look at it might be; would better lane discipline in the U.S. eliminate some congestion and eliminate the need for additional lanes in some cases?

We (in the U.S.) appear to have two to four times the per capita non-rail ground transportation fatality rate as most of western Europe (and about the worst of all industrial or OECD countries). EG, UK = 2.75/100k people, Sweden 3, Netherlands 3.9, U.S. 10.4, etc. So, we can do a lot better. We tout occasional 1% reductions, when it'd take about a 20% reduction just to get us equal to Belgium, the worst in western Europe.

(I think that if you add in our annual rail deaths (about 260 recently), our overall ground transportation system looks even worse)

Even if you look at it per billion vehicle km driven, most of western Europe is still far safer than the U.S., though we are better than Austria, Belgium, and Spain.

Any way you look at it, you have a much greater chance of being killed trying to get somewhere in the U.S. than in Europe. That doesn't speak very well of us.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 10:48 PM   #9229
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Quote:
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Some of my shots of I-40 in Arizona

Diesel costs more than Gas in the states?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
It would appear that the British are among the safest drivers in the world, notwithstanding they observe the practice, considered dangerous by some on this forum, of driving on the wrong side of the road.
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Old November 12th, 2013, 10:50 PM   #9230
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As far as I know the share of drunk drivers is similar. I've seen statistics of about 25% of all fatalities involve alcohol in the U.S., the rate is estimated to be similar in the Netherlands (they don't take blood samples from deceased drivers and occupants over here).

Freeways are by far the safest type of road, which the U.S. has plenty (and is also the reason why eastern Europe is lagging behind).

Suburban undivided multi-lane arterials and two-lane rural roads are the least safe road types.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 03:36 AM   #9231
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
As far as I know the share of drunk drivers is similar. I've seen statistics of about 25% of all fatalities involve alcohol in the U.S., the rate is estimated to be similar in the Netherlands (they don't take blood samples from deceased drivers and occupants over here).

Freeways are by far the safest type of road, which the U.S. has plenty (and is also the reason why eastern Europe is lagging behind).

Suburban undivided multi-lane arterials and two-lane rural roads are the least safe road types.
In the UK, DUI makes up about 13% of all fatalities so about half the U.S. rate, so an annual per capita DUI fatality rate of 1/8 that of the U.S. (and they have much lower drinking ages and I think higher consumption). NL has about 1/3 the overall fatality rate so with equal DUI rates (as % of all road fatalities) then you are 3 times more likely to be killed by a drunk driver in the U.S. than in NL. Interesting that they don't do blood samples of deceased drivers, any idea why?

The type of road issue is interesting because, based on what U.S. AASHTO & NACTO say, the narrow winding roads in Europe are massively more dangerous than our wide straight roads with less road furniture. We should have per billion km traveled fatality rates massively lower then EU, but we're actually higher. ???

Edit: some more stats. Germany is officially 6.8% of fatalities from DUI but since, like NL, they don't always test, they estimate actual is about 12% of fatalities involve DUI. Finland is 24% (all drivers tested), Sweden and France about 28% (about 90% of drivers tested). From: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_s...d_injuries.htm

However, keep in mind that the limit in the EU is 0.5 g/l while in the U.S. it's 0.8 g/l. My guess is that if the U.S. went to 0.5 g/l that overall fatalities might go down slightly but the percent attributable to DUI would maybe double.

Last edited by jsfox; November 13th, 2013 at 04:05 AM.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 10:33 AM   #9232
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As for congestion, there's not much wrong with the approach INRIX takes in their traffic scorecard: http://scorecard.inrix.com/scorecard/

And it's right there that you'll see massive differences among countries, regions, and cities, that make any broad comparison on a continental scale pretty much moot.

Ultimately, as in politics, all traffic is local
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Old November 13th, 2013, 12:02 PM   #9233
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There are wide disparities between EU countries. Roads in UK or Scandinavia are much safer than in Poland or Romania. For various reasons.
I'm sure similar differences occur between states or US regions.
Also bear in mind than average driver in the US drives more and you have more cars per capita than in many European countries.
The best comparisons are based on ratio of incidents per vehicle-km (or vehicle-miles) driven.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 12:22 PM   #9234
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Actually, congestion in the U.S., as expressed in the Travel Time Index (TTI) is the lowest in the OECD. Yes, there are locales with a high TTI such as Los Angeles, New York, Portland, Honolulu, but the U.S. also has a large amount of metropolitan areas that have relatively low TTIs. Australia and New Zealand, for example, have no metro areas with a low TTI, and most of Canada and Western Europe doesn't either.

The TTI is the highest in New Zealand. Stockholm, Paris, Rome, Vancouver, Palermo and Marseille all have a higher TTI than the highest ranking U.S. city; Los Angeles. Out of 25 OECD metropolitan areas with the highest TTI ranking, only 4 are in the U.S.

http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/

The travel time index is a better way of measuring congestion, by eliminating the factor of population size. It shows how much more time an average trip takes. This reveals smaller metropolitan areas to be very congested as well, relative to their population. For example, Portland, Oregon has the 6th worst TTI while being only the 23rd largest urban area.

TTIs can also be narrowed down to single road stretches, identifying key congestion spots and travel time unreliability.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 03:08 PM   #9235
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Quote:
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Diesel costs more than Gas in the states?
Yes - it's taxed differently as well. We have "on-road" diesel for trucks and such, and "off road" diesel for construction equipment, generators, etc. Both are taxed and treated differently chemically, both for revenue and environmental reasons. And it's illegal to put "off road" diesel into an "on road" vehicle.

Remember, we have both FEDERAL and STATE taxes on motor fuels, so prices can vary, sometimes widely, from state to state and even with a state. Diesel has been more expensive than gasoline for a couple of decades now. It used to be cheaper.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 07:05 PM   #9236
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I-85 / I-385 interchange, Greenville, SC

Funding has been approved for the reconstruction of the I-85 / I-385 interchange and widening of nearby freeway segments in Greenville, South Carolina. Construction could begin next year.

Growth is increasingly turning towards these smaller metropolitan areas in the southeast and they need substantial improvement. Greenville County doubled in population between 1970 and 2010.

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Old November 13th, 2013, 07:36 PM   #9237
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The best comparisons are based on ratio of incidents per vehicle-km (or vehicle-miles) driven.
Yes if you only want to compare motor vehicle safety. That's rather limiting though since it leaves out other local xportation options such as walking, bicycle, bus, trolley, rail, and carpool that may all be much safer alternatives.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 07:42 PM   #9238
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Actually, congestion in the U.S., as expressed in the Travel Time Index (TTI) is the lowest in the OECD.
Thanks Chris and Koesj. This and inrix still do not get to efficiency though. Less congestion is often a factor of more capacity. What I'm curious about is if Europe or individual countries are better for a given capacity. Can a 4-lane divided motorway in NL handle more cars more efficiently than the same in the U.S.?
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Old November 13th, 2013, 09:46 PM   #9239
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Originally Posted by jsfox View Post
Thanks Chris and Koesj. This and inrix still do not get to efficiency though. Less congestion is often a factor of more capacity. What I'm curious about is if Europe or individual countries are better for a given capacity. Can a 4-lane divided motorway in NL handle more cars more efficiently than the same in the U.S.?
Well, the only reason for eventual difference I can think of must be the different driving styles.
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Old November 13th, 2013, 09:48 PM   #9240
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Yes if you only want to compare motor vehicle safety. That's rather limiting though since it leaves out other local xportation options such as walking, bicycle, bus, trolley, rail, and carpool that may all be much safer alternatives.
Well I thought you were asking about road safety not rail safety.
More km driven by more vehicles means more accidents. Using vehicle-km is the only logical way of spotting different trends and comparing.
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