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Old May 18th, 2017, 03:50 PM   #12161
Ryme Intrinseca
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Watching some recorded TV I couldn't help but notice that a trailer for Patriots Day has a shot looking north up I-93 to the I-90 interchange.

It's here at 1.28:

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Old May 18th, 2017, 04:59 PM   #12162
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Houston

Downtown Houston in 1962.

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Old May 18th, 2017, 08:29 PM   #12163
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The combination of the car and unchecked capitalism (plus perhaps minimum parking requirements?) did more demage to that and many other cities in the U.S. and around the world than two world wars could inflict on most cities in europe.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 09:02 PM   #12164
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oh shaddup
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Old May 19th, 2017, 12:29 AM   #12166
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That's a pretty stretch of open highway
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Old May 19th, 2017, 12:31 AM   #12167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TM_Germany View Post
The combination of the car and unchecked capitalism (plus perhaps minimum parking requirements?) did more demage to that and many other cities in the U.S. and around the world than two world wars could inflict on most cities in europe.
Deindustrialization and suburbia did the hunk of damage.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 12:19 PM   #12168
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Quote:
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Deindustrialization and suburbia did the hunk of damage.
Who are both the outcome of unchecked capitalism. Exactly as it was said before.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 12:46 PM   #12169
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Who are both the outcome of unchecked capitalism. Exactly as it was said before.
It can be argued that deindustrialization is the result of unchecked capitalism. But it can also be argued that capitalism made America the most wealthy country on Earth.
A lot of it has to do with the freeway system and the personal ownership of cars. People wanted houses with white picket fences as the Middle Class exploded after the war. With the freeway they did so and moved to suburbia. Industry moved out of the cities and into new facilities outside the cities along the freeways while others were outsourced. Suburbia diminished demand for inner cities. Supply and demand.
You're looking at this in an ideological perspective. I caution you to be careful in this kind of narrow thinking. Ideologies are too simplistic in nature and they ignore the larger complexities of things.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 03:27 PM   #12170
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Car ownership in the U.S. was much higher than in Europe before World War II. By 1930, already 50% of U.S. households owned a car, in the Netherlands - not exactly a third world country at that time - it was less than 5%.

It's interesting how the U.S. did not develop an extensive freeway system until the 1950s, given the already high car ownership 20 - 25 years before. Sure, World War II halted the plans for some time, but during the 1920s and 1930s only a small number of cities developed some controlled access highways, most notably around New York. Apart from the Pennsylvania Turnpike there weren't a lot of serious plans for long-distance freeways during the 1930s.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 05:38 PM   #12171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Car ownership in the U.S. was much higher than in Europe before World War II. By 1930, already 50% of U.S. households owned a car, in the Netherlands - not exactly a third world country at that time - it was less than 5%.

It's interesting how the U.S. did not develop an extensive freeway system until the 1950s, given the already high car ownership 20 - 25 years before. Sure, World War II halted the plans for some time, but during the 1920s and 1930s only a small number of cities developed some controlled access highways, most notably around New York. Apart from the Pennsylvania Turnpike there weren't a lot of serious plans for long-distance freeways during the 1930s.
The low ownership in Europe is due to the fact most of the cities have some form of PT or locations of work close to their home, whereas US cities are quite spread apart even though it's not as sprawling as it is now.

As for the interstate/highway/ autobahn argument, it's more of how the goods are transported and military needs. Autobahn is basically Hitler's pet project for projecting the Nazi military might; interstate was Eisenhower's​ brainchild after witnessing how the autobahn had worked for the Germans.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 03:14 AM   #12172
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Interstate 5 approaching the Grapevine en route to LA in California:


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/CA/I/5/I...pr17_24x16.jpg


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/CA/I/5/I...pr17_24x16.jpg


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/CA/I/5/I...pr17_24x16.jpg
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Old May 20th, 2017, 07:00 AM   #12173
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The Dodge Challenger is such a California car and really makes that picture.

In fact, the last time I saw one around here, it was white and had a California/USC plate. I believe he either plays or works for the Buffalo Bills.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 10:56 AM   #12174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TM_Germany View Post
The combination of the car and unchecked capitalism (plus perhaps minimum parking requirements?) did more demage to that and many other cities in the U.S. and around the world than two world wars could inflict on most cities in europe.
I am strongly disagree with you. Pictures say more than words.
For example : comparision of Frampol (a city located in Lubelskie voivodship - eastern part of Poland) before WWII and after german's air raids during the WWII

And you say that cars and capitalism did worse...
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Old May 20th, 2017, 02:41 PM   #12175
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this is the wrong place to discuss this and in retrospect, I regret posting the first post I wrote before. However, that place you showed is not a city but a small town and I also said "most" cities in europe instead of all.

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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Downtown Houston in 1962.

That doesn't look too different from this, without a single bomb to help.


Source: http://www.n-tv.de/mediathek/bilders...e15017981.html

Additionally @Joshua Dodd, I think my wording wasn't clear enough. I wasn't talking about the ideological point of the potential destructive outcomes of capitalism but was referring to the fact that those cities could have been saved if there were heritage preservation and meaningful city planning policies in place to stop entire city blocks from being turned into parking lots or virtually nothing and thus "reign in" the capitalistic desire to follow the increased demand for parking and the decreased demand for apartments which led to further blight and a downward spiral.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 09:04 PM   #12176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TM_Germany View Post
That doesn't look too different from this, without a single bomb to help.
If they look similar to you then you need glasses. The first is a thriving city, the second a pile of rubble. Even what appears to be buildings there is all unstable wreckage that had to be pulled down and rebuilt. Houston meanwhile has a higher GDP than any city in Europe aside form London and Paris.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 09:26 PM   #12177
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Can we remove anti-car political bullcrap from this thread? If you want to protest cars and highways, there're tens of thousands of forums on the internet, even SSC has several. But this thread isn't the place for it. Please troll elsewhere.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 09:45 PM   #12178
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Downtown Houston had massive downtown parking as early as the 1940s, before any freeway was built. You can check 1944 imagery in Google Earth.

The Netherlands was not all that different in the early days of mass mobility. In the 1950s there was rapidly growing car ownership but people had to go to the city center for day-to-day business, shopping, education, etc. So city centers become one big parking lot - different than Houston - but still there was street parking everywhere, even on squares.

By the 1970s employment and shopping greatly dispersed. Not to the periphery like the malls and big-box stores in the U.S., but to larger shopping districts in residential areas outside the city center. Jobs moved to new office complexes and industrial / commercial areas outside the urban core. As a result the growing demand for street parking in the city center was greatly reduced and large-scale parking was moved to (underground) parking garages. Even in Houston the amount of street parking has been reduced somewhat (especially in relation to its gigantic population growth since the 1960s).
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Old May 21st, 2017, 01:49 PM   #12179
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Quote:
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That doesn't look too different from this, without a single bomb to help.
Either you're trolling, or you don't know what you're talking about.

Either way, I'm fairly sure the people who suffered the bombings during WWII would've preferred Houston's "unchecked capitalism", as you called (along with freeways, parking lots, and sprawling suburbia), than ordnance dropped on their heads.
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Old May 21st, 2017, 05:47 PM   #12180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Downtown Houston had massive downtown parking as early as the 1940s, before any freeway was built. You can check 1944 imagery in Google Earth.

The Netherlands was not all that different in the early days of mass mobility. In the 1950s there was rapidly growing car ownership but people had to go to the city center for day-to-day business, shopping, education, etc. So city centers become one big parking lot - different than Houston - but still there was street parking everywhere, even on squares.

By the 1970s employment and shopping greatly dispersed. Not to the periphery like the malls and big-box stores in the U.S., but to larger shopping districts in residential areas outside the city center. Jobs moved to new office complexes and industrial / commercial areas outside the urban core. As a result the growing demand for street parking in the city center was greatly reduced and large-scale parking was moved to (underground) parking garages. Even in Houston the amount of street parking has been reduced somewhat (especially in relation to its gigantic population growth since the 1960s).
With the notable difference that Amsterdam didn't lose most of it's building substance to parking lots, which is the only point I've been trying to make, Jesus. Everybody get back in your pants.

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Originally Posted by browntown View Post
If they look similar to you then you need glasses. The first is a thriving city, the second a pile of rubble. Even what appears to be buildings there is all unstable wreckage that had to be pulled down and rebuilt. Houston meanwhile has a higher GDP than any city in Europe aside form London and Paris.
I don't doubt that Houston was (and is) doing well economically but it's certainly not a "thriving city" (now it has become a whole lot better, it was at its worst in the 1960s and 70s, I believe). To be a "thriving city", it actually has to be a city with an actual urban fabric first, not just parking lots interspersed with some high-rises, connecting streets and freeway ramps. What you said was actually part of the point I was making. What happened to Houston was good for the economy (arguably, other cities that shared simililar fates didn't and don't do very well) but bad for the city, as it more or less ceased to exist.


Source: PlannerDan.com (Photo by Alex MacLean)

Does this look like an actual city to you? It's at best a big, centrally located office park - no quality of life whatsoever, if it's even possible to live there.

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Originally Posted by Zack Fair View Post
Either you're trolling, or you don't know what you're talking about.

Either way, I'm fairly sure the people who suffered the bombings during WWII would've preferred Houston's "unchecked capitalism", as you called (along with freeways, parking lots, and sprawling suburbia), than ordnance dropped on their heads.
Don't get so emotional. At no point was I arguing about the human suffering in WWII, which of course was terrible and has nothing to compare to in the U.S. I was referencing to how the cities as structures seemed to fare seemingly similarly destructive fates on both continents, one with violence, one without. I thought it should be clear to everyone that the comparison was rather exaggerated, I was proven wrong.
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Last edited by TM_Germany; May 21st, 2017 at 06:38 PM.
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