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Old November 30th, 2017, 01:33 AM   #12461
Innsertnamehere
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It is the definition of "induced demand", that is, additional demand for the highway is induced by the highway widening. Before the highway took, say, 20 minutes to drive on at rush hour. Additional capacity was added, which if there was no additional demand added, would have reduced travel times. But yet today traffic levels are higher and travel time is still 20 minutes.

Now of course more people can make this trip in the 20 minutes that likely avoided making the trip before, so it does still provide a benefit. But to say that it didn't induce demand is silly. The question is more so whether it is worth inducing demand.

Mass transit is a joke in LA. Don't delude yourself otherwise.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 01:58 AM   #12462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
It is the definition of "induced demand", that is, additional demand for the highway is induced by the highway widening. Before the highway took, say, 20 minutes to drive on at rush hour. Additional capacity was added, which if there was no additional demand added, would have reduced travel times. But yet today traffic levels are higher and travel time is still 20 minutes.

Now of course more people can make this trip in the 20 minutes that likely avoided making the trip before, so it does still provide a benefit. But to say that it didn't induce demand is silly. The question is more so whether it is worth inducing demand.

Mass transit is a joke in LA. Don't delude yourself otherwise.
^ Are you talking about the Sepulveda Pass project? Cause if so, I think you're out to lunch. The 405 project added something like 2 miles of a single northbound carpool lane and modernized the cross-section. There was no additional southbound capacity added as part of the project. The implication of adding ~2 miles of northbound carpool lane had a negligible effect on demand.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 02:17 AM   #12463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
It is the definition of "induced demand", that is, additional demand for the highway is induced by the highway widening. Before the highway took, say, 20 minutes to drive on at rush hour. Additional capacity was added, which if there was no additional demand added, would have reduced travel times. But yet today traffic levels are higher and travel time is still 20 minutes.

Now of course more people can make this trip in the 20 minutes that likely avoided making the trip before, so it does still provide a benefit. But to say that it didn't induce demand is silly. The question is more so whether it is worth inducing demand.

Mass transit is a joke in LA. Don't delude yourself otherwise.
New highways or widening induce demand but one also needs to consider that additional traffic on highway means less traffic somewhere else. Not all additional trips are totally new. Some of those trips shifted from more congested routes to the highway, freeing up those streets or highways.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 03:38 AM   #12464
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^ The concept of "induced demand" is really an example of people changing their behaviour based on a change.

Considering the 405 corridor, if a new, parallel, freeway was constructed linking the 101 and 10 Freeways through, say, Topanga Canyon, that would absolutely change people's behaviour, and I would expect there would be overall more cars on the road (and on the freeway network) if such a hypothetical corridor were to be constructed.

The 405 carpool lane is not enough of a network upgrade to really influence people's behaviour in a notable way. It's not like people stopped riding the bus because of the new carpool lane. By the same token, it seems doubtful that there is going to be a mad rush on housing in the San Fernando Valley because of a new northbound HOV lane.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 06:37 AM   #12465
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Well, the city of Waxahachie itself confirmed this to be false.
Something can only be considered false if it were intended to be true in the first place.

This was conceptual from the get-go.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 03:22 PM   #12466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
New highways or widening induce demand but one also needs to consider that additional traffic on highway means less traffic somewhere else. Not all additional trips are totally new. Some of those trips shifted from more congested routes to the highway, freeing up those streets or highways.
Yes, a good example was the expansion of I-10 'Katy Freeway' in Houston. Traffic volumes grew significantly after expansion, which was dubbed a 'poster child of induced demand'. But what all those criticisms omitted was the fact that traffic volumes declined on alternate routes (US 290, Westpark Tollway, FM 1093, US 59), which explained most of the traffic growth on I-10. Also an omitted factor was the explosive population growth on the west side of Houston, before and after the expansion of I-10.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 03:32 PM   #12467
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Quote:
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Mass transit is a joke in LA. Don't delude yourself otherwise.
The average commuting time on transit in Los Angeles is 86 minutes per day. In those 86 minutes, the average trip distance is less than 7 miles one way. So the average door-to-door speed is only 9 miles per hour.

Source: https://moovitapp.com/insights/en/Mo...Angeles_CA-302

Which explains why driving is still faster - even with intense traffic congestion. In addition, the Los Angeles rail system is geared towards trips to downtown Los Angeles. Almost 98% of Los Angeles metropolitan employment is not in downtown.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 07:15 PM   #12468
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Yes, a good example was the expansion of I-10 'Katy Freeway' in Houston. Traffic volumes grew significantly after expansion, which was dubbed a 'poster child of induced demand'. But what all those criticisms omitted was the fact that traffic volumes declined on alternate routes (US 290, Westpark Tollway, FM 1093, US 59), which explained most of the traffic growth on I-10. Also an omitted factor was the explosive population growth on the west side of Houston, before and after the expansion of I-10.
The Katy is an interesting example. It's worth noting that the most reasonable alternative is the Westpark Tollway. The effect of adding capacity is going to have a much greater effect on demand when the alternative is a toll road.
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Old November 30th, 2017, 08:13 PM   #12469
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Interstate 269 in Mississippi

A ribbon-cutting ceremony is planned for December 5: http://sp.mdot.ms.gov/Public%20Affai...944273&IsDlg=2

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I-269 in Northern Mississippi. It is part of an outer loop of Memphis. This section is planned to open soon.


Photo by 'Brooks' of the AAroads forum
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Old November 30th, 2017, 08:23 PM   #12470
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Quote:
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The Katy is an interesting example. It's worth noting that the most reasonable alternative is the Westpark Tollway. The effect of adding capacity is going to have a much greater effect on demand when the alternative is a toll road.
Talking about the Westpark Tollway they have just kicked off this project on the i69(Rte 59) / i610 interchange here in Houston:



The traffic in the morning from that intersection backs up to the Westpark Tollway.

5 years of undiluted fun ahead!!
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Old December 5th, 2017, 11:53 PM   #12471
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I-66 Northern Virginia

I-66 'inside the beltway' has been converted from HOV-only to HOT this week. The tolls are getting ridiculous though, spiking up to $ 40 for the 8 mile segment between I-495 and US 29. These spikes are short-lived and are a result of dynamic tolling to keep I-66 free flow. If demand exceeds capacity, the tolls go up.

$ 40 is far higher than what other express lanes charge, especially given its short distance of 8 miles. However most people will not pay 40 bucks for 8 miles, but likely somewhere between 5 and 10 dollars. But traveling through at the wrong time can cost you a lot of money. The toll rates are posted before you enter the tolled section, so people have a few seconds to decide whether it's worth it or not.

https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/...s-66-climb-36/
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Old December 6th, 2017, 07:15 PM   #12472
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I-405 Los Angeles

The Highway Thru Hell:

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Old December 6th, 2017, 07:18 PM   #12473
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The Highway Thru Hell:

I used to live off Skirball. If I was still living there I would be absolutely $hitting myself...... That's really close to my old house. Fingers crossed for those people.
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Old December 6th, 2017, 09:31 PM   #12474
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Do you think express toll lanes would be a good idea for I-76 in Greater Philadelphia?
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Old December 6th, 2017, 09:45 PM   #12475
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The Schuylkill Expressway you mean? I think it should have six lanes from the turnpike to the Roosevelt Expressway. It was built during the 1950s, perhaps it would need significant reconstruction anyway.
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Old December 6th, 2017, 10:33 PM   #12476
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The Highway Thru Hell:

I blame induced demand for that fire.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 05:21 AM   #12477
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The Schuylkill Expressway you mean? I think it should have six lanes from the turnpike to the Roosevelt Expressway. It was built during the 1950s, perhaps it would need significant reconstruction anyway.
There isn't enough room on the current RoW for any expansion. And the curves and merges are EXTREMELY sub-par (they were bad when it was built).

There's a reason it's called the "sure-kill".

A reconstruction/improvement would likely mean a major tunneling project under western Fairmount Park. Can you say Big Dig?
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Old December 7th, 2017, 06:11 AM   #12478
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For I-66, what are the alternative routes for non-HOV cars to get into DC? How do those times compare?
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Old December 7th, 2017, 03:35 PM   #12479
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I-495 is heavily congested at the state line, where the express lanes end. So that makes the George Washington Memorial Parkway less of an alternative. My guess is people were / are taking VA-123 or US 50.
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Old December 7th, 2017, 03:45 PM   #12480
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Interstate 840, Greensboro, NC

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December 6, 2017

A 4.5 mile / 7 km section of the 'Greensboro Urban Loop' (Interstate 840) opened to traffic on the east side of Greensboro, North Carolina. The new freeway section runs from US 29 to US 70 and was completed a full year ahead of schedule.

https://apps.ncdot.gov/newsreleases/...s.aspx?r=14644
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