daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 28th, 2017, 05:58 AM   #12521
browntown
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 61
Likes (Received): 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by TM_Germany View Post
the point of wanting people to move downtown is precisely that you don't need the infrastructure to move them there anymore then...
Yeah, but not everybody can afford $3000+/mo rents like you get in cities like San Fran and NYC so there's that whole issue.
__________________

Joshua Dodd liked this post
browntown no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 28th, 2017, 08:15 AM   #12522
Innsertnamehere
insertoronto
 
Innsertnamehere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,960
Likes (Received): 680

The idea with dense downtowns too is that auto based transport is inherently low density as cars need tons of space to store and service.. you need public transport to service dense areas. Austin does not have good transit. LA doesn't either, and it's built form is very very dispersed making it extremely difficult to service with public transport. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. You need density for transit, but you need transit for density. And in the US, the demand for low density (ground related) housing forms means that transit is made extremely difficult to be effective.

Places like the Netherlands have extremely effective transit networks as there is infrastructure and densities to support them. The Netherlands also has a large highway network, but serves more as a freight and commercial use.

Of course transit can never service all trips either, even in the most transit dependant areas like Tokyo there are significant auto trips made. The goal is to simply serve a large amount of trips, not all.

I think the other big issue in the US is that it is always treated as an all or nothing issue, you either have transit or roads. The solution is the middle.
Innsertnamehere no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2017, 01:38 PM   #12523
keokiracer
Roadgeek from NL
 
keokiracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Halsteren (NL)
Posts: 3,672
Likes (Received): 2628

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Places like the Netherlands have extremely effective transit networks as there is infrastructure and densities to support them. The Netherlands also has a large highway network, but serves more as a freight and commercial use.
Utter nonsense. Yes, the Netherlands is denser in general and spends about 50% of its infra budget on public transit, yet in a massive majority of trips public transit does not even compete with the car (that being defined as more than 3x the traveltime compared to the car, and yet you call it "extremely effective" ), this is despite 2/3 decades of barely any new highways and widenings (see this list of records of decisions and note the massive drop in projects between ~1980 and 2008) and instead improving public transit. Luckily weve come back from this and are starting on en masse widening our highways, since 2 million+ extra people and more distance travelled due to mass-planned VINEX-locations (which were built to cope with the growing population whilst the jobs didn't move to those areas resulting in lots and lots of relatively long-distance commuting) has caused us to have an incredibly overburdened road/highway system.
keokiracer está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2017, 04:12 PM   #12524
sonysnob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North York
Posts: 963
Likes (Received): 860

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
The idea with dense downtowns too is that auto based transport is inherently low density as cars need tons of space to store and service.. you need public transport to service dense areas. Austin does not have good transit. LA doesn't either, and it's built form is very very dispersed making it extremely difficult to service with public transport. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. You need density for transit, but you need transit for density. And in the US, the demand for low density (ground related) housing forms means that transit is made extremely difficult to be effective.
I think it's worth pointing out that LA's metro has both more stations, and many more miles of track laid down than Toronto currently has.

Transit ridership in LA does pale in comparison to surrounding highway corridors. Consider the Gold Line in LA, which serves Pasadena, one of the more dense communities in LA. In November, 2017, the line served about 52,000 boardings on the average weekday. That stat is cumulative for the entire line, not just for a spot to spot trip between stations. That's a pretty small number compared to the 210 Freeway, for which the Gold Line runs in the median of. The 210 Freeway carries in excess of 300,000 vehicles per day, on the busiest spot segment.

Of course, it's worth pointing out that comparing a spot segment to the daily boardings of the entire line isn't even a fair apples to apples comparison. The daily boardings stat is a cumulative total, a cumulative total number of trips on the highway network between could be in excess of 500,000 or 600,000 vehicle trips. And the person density per vehicle on the highway is greater than 1 person per vehicle.

Metro Rail Daily boardings:
http://isotp.metro.net/MetroRidership/IndexRail.aspx

Caltrans Traffic Volumes:
https://data.ca.gov/dataset/caltrans-traffic-volumes

Locally, a comparable example would be to compare the daily boardings on the Mississauga Transitway to that of the competing Highway 403 corridor.
__________________
Asphaltplanet.ca
sonysnob está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2017, 04:22 PM   #12525
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

I believe that as a rule of thumb, the average occupancy of a vehicle in Europe is about 1.2. However in Los Angeles it may be higher due to all the carpool and vanpool incentives. Carpooling is not a thing in most of Europe. Dedicated carpool lanes on freeways in Europe are virtually unheard of, there are only a few exceptions.

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; December 28th, 2017 at 06:20 PM. Reason: typo
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2017, 06:17 PM   #12526
Joshua Dodd
Registered User
 
Joshua Dodd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx
Posts: 1,589
Likes (Received): 1565

Quote:
Originally Posted by browntown View Post
Yeah, but not everybody can afford $3000+/mo rents like you get in cities like San Fran and NYC so there's that whole issue.
That's also another housing bubble waiting to pop.
Joshua Dodd no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 28th, 2017, 09:22 PM   #12527
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,543

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Dodd View Post
That's also another housing bubble waiting to pop.
It won't pop if you increase demand by seeking to increase the numbers living in downtown...

I'm not sure it is a bubble - limited supply, high demand. Detroit's downtown would be cheap, San Francisco expensive.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2017, 02:33 AM   #12528
TM_Germany
Got Fachwerk?
 
TM_Germany's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Limburg a.d. Lahn
Posts: 287
Likes (Received): 431

Quote:
Originally Posted by browntown View Post
Yeah, but not everybody can afford $3000+/mo rents like you get in cities like San Fran and NYC so there's that whole issue.
The solution to that is increasing the size of the downtown area and thus offering much more high density housing, so that prizes stabilize. However, since the entire L.A. basin is already occupied by low density housing, that's a very tine consuming and expensive process. Sustainability is something extremely important in city planning but that was completely disregarded in the post war world, especially so in the U.S.
__________________
All pics by me unless otherwise credited.

Neotradtional Architecture in Germany

Leipzig in Spring: Historicism at its finest.
TM_Germany no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 29th, 2017, 06:55 AM   #12529
browntown
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 61
Likes (Received): 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by TM_Germany View Post
The solution to that is increasing the size of the downtown area and thus offering much more high density housing, so that prizes stabilize. However, since the entire L.A. basin is already occupied by low density housing, that's a very tine consuming and expensive process. Sustainability is something extremely important in city planning but that was completely disregarded in the post war world, especially so in the U.S.
Yeah, but people who already own land in the less dense areas on places like San Fran and NYC are MASSIVE NIMBYs so there's basically no way those cities will get much denser. It's the old gatekeepers problem.
__________________

TM_Germany liked this post
browntown no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2017, 06:18 AM   #12530
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,241
Likes (Received): 779

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I-95 will be rerouted around Trenton, New Jersey. Since I-95 was built, there has been a gap in I-95 in Central Jersey.



I-95 will now be rerouted across I-276 and the New Jersey Turnpike around the south and east side of Trenton. Former I-95 will become an extension of I-295.



There will be an interesting exit numbering, as Pennsylvania I-295 will increase exit numbers going north, but New Jersey I-295 will increase the exit numbering based on the existing pattern, so south to Pennsylvania. They meet at the Scudders Falls Bridge.



Earlier plans called for a renumbering of I-295/I-95 to Interstate 195 around Trenton. The renumbering will be implemented in January. This completes an uninterrupted I-95 from Florida to Maine.



You won't be driving on I-95 near Trenton any more. Hello, I-295.







It should be noted that the interchange between the existing 95 and the Pennsylvania Turnpike isn’t open yet (unless it’s happened in the last couple of weeks), so 95 is not quite uninterrupted yet.
__________________
I didn't vote for him....

DRIVEN IN BEEN IN:
AL CA CT DE DC FL GA ID IL IN KY ME MD MA MI MN MO MT NH NJ NY NC ND OH OR PA RI SC SD TN UT VT VA WA WV WI WY ---
AB BC MB NB NS ON PE QC SK ---
A B CH D F GB I L NL

wkiehl101 liked this post
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 30th, 2017, 01:06 PM   #12531
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

I-70 Colorado

A pothole formed on a bridge of I-70 near Idaho Springs, Colorado.

Interesting to see the bridge design. Here you see rebar with an asphalt wearing course on top of it. The bridge deck is also the driving surface. The bridge deck is supported by steel beams underneath.



__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

g.spinoza, Vladivostok2012 liked this post
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 1st, 2018, 12:28 AM   #12532
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,241
Likes (Received): 779

[USA] United States | Interstate Highways

Follow-up on I-95 around Trenton: I just drove from New Jersey exit 2 to Philadelphia. No sign of the new exit numbering or the change from 95 to 295; the one ramp I saw at the 95/276 junction is still missing some deck segments.
Stay tuned....
__________________
I didn't vote for him....

DRIVEN IN BEEN IN:
AL CA CT DE DC FL GA ID IL IN KY ME MD MA MI MN MO MT NH NJ NY NC ND OH OR PA RI SC SD TN UT VT VA WA WV WI WY ---
AB BC MB NB NS ON PE QC SK ---
A B CH D F GB I L NL
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 1st, 2018, 12:32 AM   #12533
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

The new signs will go up in January, according to NJ: http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf...ew_number.html
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 1st, 2018, 12:38 AM   #12534
Penn's Woods
Deadpan Snarker
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 6,241
Likes (Received): 779

I know that’s what the article said; I was hoping there might be some, um, sign of it.
It’s more important that there’ll still a physical gap in 95 (due to the unfinished ramp). I did see, in the main line of 95 southbound right after where I’d guess the new ramp will come in, a new gantry with covered signs. But there have been roadworks through there for some time, so that may (may) just be new signs for traffic on the existing 95 due to realigned lanes or something; from what I could see it was a pull-through on the left and exit 40 on the right.
__________________
I didn't vote for him....

DRIVEN IN BEEN IN:
AL CA CT DE DC FL GA ID IL IN KY ME MD MA MI MN MO MT NH NJ NY NC ND OH OR PA RI SC SD TN UT VT VA WA WV WI WY ---
AB BC MB NB NS ON PE QC SK ---
A B CH D F GB I L NL
Penn's Woods no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 1st, 2018, 02:27 AM   #12535
SounderBruce
Transit Photographer
 
SounderBruce's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,239
Likes (Received): 3624

A UCLA study has found that freeways and urban arterials carrying over 100,000 vehicles per day can produce dangerous levels of pollution for people living within ~1,000 feet. This includes non-exhaust pollutants that come from tires, brake pads, and other parts of all vehicles (including electric ones).

http://www.latimes.com/local/califor...htmlstory.html
__________________
My Urban Showcase Thread - Seattle's skyscrapers, roads and transit

Maps of Seattle and the Puget Sound region

Twitter - Flickr - Wikipedia - Seattle Transit Blog - SkyriseCities

jchernin liked this post
SounderBruce no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 1st, 2018, 02:30 AM   #12536
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

So you need more frontage roads and strip malls like Houston...
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 1st, 2018, 07:54 AM   #12537
N830MH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 224
Likes (Received): 76

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A pothole formed on a bridge of I-70 near Idaho Springs, Colorado.

Interesting to see the bridge design. Here you see rebar with an asphalt wearing course on top of it. The bridge deck is also the driving surface. The bridge deck is supported by steel beams underneath.



Whoa! I see that. They got a damage on interstate. That's not good! They have to be fixed.
N830MH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 1st, 2018, 03:44 PM   #12538
sonysnob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North York
Posts: 963
Likes (Received): 860

Quote:
Originally Posted by SounderBruce View Post
A UCLA study has found that freeways and urban arterials carrying over 100,000 vehicles per day can produce dangerous levels of pollution for people living within ~1,000 feet. This includes non-exhaust pollutants that come from tires, brake pads, and other parts of all vehicles (including electric ones).

http://www.latimes.com/local/califor...htmlstory.html
That's a pretty incomplete picture, particularly when it comes to indoor air quality within a home. Particulate, from things such as soot or brake dust is pretty easily removed through particulate filter systems within a home HVAC system.

And there are a lot of factors that can negatively impact indoor household air quality, in much more measurable ways than living beside a freeway. Factors such as cooking, both in terms of items cooked, and the fuel used to cook it, the use of household air cleaning products, household mold, and household air circulation all contribute significantly to indoor air quality, and are factors regardless of where a home is situated.

I'd argue that that article is fairly alarmist, without painting a very complete picture about how many factors actually contribute to indoor air quality, or really getting into time weighted averaging for exposure based on actual health effects from chemical exposure.

A better guide to understanding air quality implications can be found by perusing the NIOSH guide:

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/pgintrod.html
__________________
Asphaltplanet.ca
sonysnob está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 3rd, 2018, 06:40 PM   #12539
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

Snow on I-16 and I-95 near Savannah, Georgia.

Snowfall is apparently pretty rare in this area, according to Wikipedia: decades might pass between snowfall events



__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

mrsmartman, pikoc89, wkiehl101 liked this post
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old January 5th, 2018, 04:23 PM   #12540
triodegradable
Buenos Aires-Argentina
 
triodegradable's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Buenos Aires
Posts: 6,118
Likes (Received): 2610

wow
__________________
LESS IS MORE ... Mies Van Der Rohe
triodegradable no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
america, california, highway, highways, interstate, los angeles, united states, urban

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium