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Old March 10th, 2008, 07:26 PM   #1861
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Originally Posted by Galls View Post
I think you meant least.

Peak is still cheaper than gas+parking.


And I have fallen asleep in south jersey, then was smacked in the head.
No, I didn't. Park and Ride means you have to pay the car payments (insurance, fuel), and the Transit passes. The worst of both worlds.



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Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
I think New York has one of the most outdated expressways networks of the United States. There is almost no freeway wider than 2x3 lanes, and a lot of those parkways have a bad alignment. Like the Long Island expressway, which is 2x3 all the way (except a section in Nassau Co which is 2x4), but at every exit heading to New York, traffic volumes increase. That's why the New York commuting times are the longest of the U.S. They are 30% longer than traffic jam capital Los Angeles!
I think that the commute times of New York are skewed by the % of people that take Mass Transit. The highest commute times are in the parts of New York aren't in Manhattan, they're in the outlyling parts of the city...like parts of Queens, where subway service isn't as extensive, the average commuter spends more than 40 minutes.

Although NYC traffic is definitely nothing to laugh about, it's worse in cities like San Francisco and Los Angeles from what I've heard. Even Washington DC's traffic (which I personally have experienced...HORRIBLE) rivals that of NYC, although New York has a population much larger. If it didn't have such a good Mass Transit system, New York would simply not...function.

New York has some of the oldest highways in the US, with a large portion completed before there was even an Interstate system. It does have crappy highways, but they were probably the widest that they could be, figuring the city's population density. If you want to see monster freeways, you really don't have to go far...plenty in the suburbs.
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Old March 10th, 2008, 08:41 PM   #1862
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Well, the only monster freeway i know is the New Jersey Turnpike. Even on Long Island, most expressways and Parkways aren't much wider than 2x3 lanes, not to mention the parkways, which can date back from the early 1900's. The George Washington Bridge and BQE looks like they are always jammed.

Commuting or driving for other reasons can be pretty expensive in New York, because of all toll bridges.

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No, I didn't. Park and Ride means you have to pay the car payments (insurance, fuel), and the Transit passes. The worst of both worlds.
Inhabitants of the suburbs tend to have a car anyway, even if it's not for commuting. Long distance rail commuting can take up a lot of time, maybe it's feasible to encourage people by taking public transport within New York, by constructing mass park & ride locations? And what about carpooling? California has lots of HOV-lanes, but New York hasn't.
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Old March 10th, 2008, 09:23 PM   #1863
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NYC metro was suppose to have a Los Angeles style freeway network, but many of those projects got canceled in the 60s. One of those projects was to build a 6 lane elevated expressway through Midtown Manhattan(even to go as fair as build through the Empire State Building!) to connect between Lincoln Tunnel and I-495 Long Island expressway.
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Old March 10th, 2008, 09:31 PM   #1864
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Wasn't that an underground proposal? Or was that the I-478 extension to the Holland tunnel?
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Old March 10th, 2008, 11:22 PM   #1865
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No, I didn't. Park and Ride means you have to pay the car payments (insurance, fuel), and the Transit passes. The worst of both worlds.
I ride my foldable bike to my LIRR station (sometimes walk), it is considered a package and then hope on the train.

If someone decides they want a mcmansion in upstate NY away from any transit system, well that was their choice.

And I still stand by my opinion that NYC should never expand any roads. As I have said before, the marginal benefits to the city by expanding road service in the Manhattan IS negative. More roads will be detrimental to NYC quality of life, as it will be with more cars.

I say spend no more money on expanding roads in the meto area and start expanding transit. The return on that investment, unlike roads, would be positive.
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Old March 10th, 2008, 11:32 PM   #1866
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Well, your opinion resembles a lot of those found here on SSC:

"how can anyone be THAT stupid to live in those bloody boring suburbs".

I think you have to understand, when you're older, have a family and (young) kids, your priority change. Living in a quiet affordable suburb seems to be more important than living in a condo somewhere on the Upper East Side. I can understand the feelings of people living in Manhattan, they have to deal with the cars and traffic from people living outside of New York City.

There are 750.000 households in Manhattan, of which 75% do not own a car. But that are still nearly 200.000 cars owned by inhabitants of Manhattan. A 3 lane traffic jam of 250 miles.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 12:21 AM   #1867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Well, your opinion resembles a lot of those found here on SSC:

"how can anyone be THAT stupid to live in those bloody boring suburbs".

I think you have to understand, when you're older, have a family and (young) kids, your priority change. Living in a quiet affordable suburb seems to be more important than living in a condo somewhere on the Upper East Side. I can understand the feelings of people living in Manhattan, they have to deal with the cars and traffic from people living outside of New York City.

There are 750.000 households in Manhattan, of which 75% do not own a car. But that are still nearly 200.000 cars owned by inhabitants of Manhattan. A 3 lane traffic jam of 250 miles.


Does the fact that I am a nut job who rides a folding bike to the LIRR mean I do not have a family? Cause I do. Living in a neighbor-less neighborhood does not appeal to me I should know, because I am actively looking to relocate my family out of the suburbs and into reality.

I have presented my argument to you numerous times, which you have yet to address. That new roads in highly dense areas have a negative impact on the quality of life of the area.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 12:26 AM   #1868
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I am looking right now at the New York traffic reports, but it doesn't seem so bad, the I-278 and I-495 are pretty much jammed, and the Holland & Lincoln Tunnels, and the GW Bridge, but the other roads seems fairly okay. Well, evening rushhours are usally lighter than morning rushhours anyway.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 01:06 AM   #1869
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Hmm, how come there's I-495 in NYC, when it's already the Washington DC beltway?
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Old March 11th, 2008, 01:35 AM   #1870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Inhabitants of the suburbs tend to have a car anyway, even if it's not for commuting. Long distance rail commuting can take up a lot of time, maybe it's feasible to encourage people by taking public transport within New York, by constructing mass park & ride locations? And what about carpooling? California has lots of HOV-lanes, but New York hasn't.
HOV Lanes seem to me to be a half-assed attempt at freeway capacity improvement. To give carpoolers only one lane and no dedicated exits or ramps does nothing. The carpool lanes for I-210 in Los Angeles actually seem to move slower than the mixed flow traffic.

If HOV lanes are really going to work, they need to be for at least 3 people (so that parents don't get the advantage when driving their kids) and they need more of their own exits and ramps. What do you think?
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Old March 11th, 2008, 02:00 AM   #1871
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Hmm, how come there's I-495 in NYC, when it's already the Washington DC beltway?
Three-digit numbers can be reused as long as the number doesn't appear twice in the same state. There are I- 495's in Washington DC (Virginia and Maryland), Wilmington (Delaware), New York (and New Jersey), Boston (Massachusetts), and there used to be one in Maine.

Edit: The one in New Jersey was remarked as NJ 495 a while back-- I almost forgot. It's the same route, though.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 02:05 AM   #1872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Hmm, how come there's I-495 in NYC, when it's already the Washington DC beltway?
As you probably know, the three digit Interstates connect with their "parent" route- so 495 will at some point hookup with I-95. What a lot of people 'don't' know is that each state can have a three-digit that may have appeared in another state.
So there's a 495 in Virginia, Maryland, Mass, Maine (hidden) and probably other places I'm forgetting.
But once you have one three digit number in a state it can not repeat in that state.
I hope I explained this ok


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Last edited by Billpa; March 11th, 2008 at 02:07 AM. Reason: cause I'm five minutes too slow!
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Old March 11th, 2008, 02:05 AM   #1873
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Thanks, very interesting, didn't know that. So only 3-digit numbers can be reused? Also US highways, loops etc. (not just Interstates)?
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Old March 11th, 2008, 02:41 AM   #1874
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Thanks, very interesting, didn't know that. So only 3-digit numbers can be reused? Also US highways, loops etc. (not just Interstates)?
No, actually there are also two I-84's and two I-88's as well. I don't think there's a rule explaining that-- we just ran out of numbers.

US highway numbers aren't reused, though there can be any number of loops and bypasses in a given state, much less nationwide. Three-digit US highways are pretty long, not just spurs or loops. State routes tend to follow the same pattern. Some states try not to have state numbers that are the same as any Interstate or US highway numbers in the state, but others don't bother. Same with having the same route numbers for state highways on each side of a state border. The numbers in my own state of Georgia match the ones in North and South Carolina, but not the ones in Tennessee, Alabama or Florida.

There are seven !-295's, and I-585 in Spartanburg, SC doesn't touch its parent route, I-85, though it used to. There's an I-238 in Oakland, California, because I-80 is the only main Interstate that serves that city, and all of the x80's were taken.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 04:39 AM   #1875
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Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
Inhabitants of the suburbs tend to have a car anyway, even if it's not for commuting. Long distance rail commuting can take up a lot of time, maybe it's feasible to encourage people by taking public transport within New York, by constructing mass park & ride locations? And what about carpooling? California has lots of HOV-lanes, but New York hasn't.
Yeah, plenty do, to do other things besides commuting. Most of the suburbs circling NY don't have good transport, so there isn't much of a choice. So, commuting by transport to work, while keeping a car for everything else is the most logical choice for most commuters (over 75% of commuters into Manhattan take Mass Transit).

Rail or Bus (NY also has a less well-known extensive express bus network) is pretty much the most feasible way to commute to New York. Park and Ride facilities are common in the suburban rail stops, actually...they pretty much are the rule, not the exception.

I'm sure that carpooling is common as well, but it's less needed in a city like New York, with it's large rail network, unlike in other cities. NYC has no HOV lanes that I know of (although Long Island does).
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Old March 11th, 2008, 04:42 AM   #1876
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Originally Posted by Galls View Post
I ride my foldable bike to my LIRR station (sometimes walk), it is considered a package and then hope on the train.

If someone decides they want a mcmansion in upstate NY away from any transit system, well that was their choice.
But, not everyone just rides a bike like you...most people still need cars for everything else (Long Island is a very auto-centric place, hell...it's where the American suburb was invented).

I'm with you, there is nothing wrong with more Mass Transit, and these days with our gas prices, it's the only true alternative, but let's be realistic here...there are millions of people in the NYC area that rely on cars, and they aren't going anywhere soon.

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No, actually there are also two I-84's and two I-88's as well. I don't think there's a rule explaining that-- we just ran out of numbers.
The eastern I-84 goes through my city...to me, I just consider the Western one to be it's lost twin.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 12:32 PM   #1877
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There's an I-238 in Oakland, California, because I-80 is the only main Interstate that serves that city, and all of the x80's were taken.
I think I-238 was the former State Route number California 238.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 02:50 PM   #1878
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No, actually there are also two I-84's and two I-88's as well. I don't think there's a rule explaining that-- we just ran out of numbers.

US highway numbers aren't reused, though there can be any number of loops and bypasses in a given state, much less nationwide. Three-digit US highways are pretty long, not just spurs or loops. State routes tend to follow the same pattern. Some states try not to have state numbers that are the same as any Interstate or US highway numbers in the state, but others don't bother. Same with having the same route numbers for state highways on each side of a state border. The numbers in my own state of Georgia match the ones in North and South Carolina, but not the ones in Tennessee, Alabama or Florida.

There are seven !-295's, and I-585 in Spartanburg, SC doesn't touch its parent route, I-85, though it used to. There's an I-238 in Oakland, California, because I-80 is the only main Interstate that serves that city, and all of the x80's were taken.
Thanks for your extensive answer! I don't know how I hadn't noticed double designations before.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 08:43 PM   #1879
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Also, IIRC, I-295 in New York is less than 50 km from I-295 in New Jersey/Delaware.

Mike
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Old March 11th, 2008, 10:17 PM   #1880
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It's an utopia to think this all (or even partial) transportation demand can be met by mass transit.
No, it's not an utopia. Mass transit is the cheapest way to provide enough capacity for the transportation demands in a densely populated city like New York. Cities in Europe and even more so in east Asia are prime examples that it works.

Mass transit is the only way out to handle further growth in passenger transportation demands. It is affordable, reliable and energy-efficient (in densely populated areas). Contrary to road traffic which is rather problematic within urban areas.

That said roads have still their role to play. Goods won't get to the shops by tramways. Neither does the dust-cart get into the neighbourhoods without roads. Massive investments in wider roads, however, are out of the question.
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