daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 18th, 2008, 08:04 AM   #1941
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
They look nice but USA, especially CA and East coast, needs an efficient railway development for passenger transport badly. I mean building more road cannot be an efficient and environmental solution. And here, biggest problem seems to be habits of people who cannot leave their car a moment.
I think it's been said before but the way a lot of U.S. cities are laid out, you need your car at some point to get somewhere without taking all day to get there. I would gladly take a train somewhere but if they put in a few lines, there will be so many destinations that are way too far to walk after you leave the station. Plus taking the car is a lot faster than taking the bus.

You don't have to wait for your car to arrive. You pretty much go at your own pace. Your car doesn't leave you 3 blocks away from the store you want to go to.

With that said, I'd love to see a nice rail system in Austin but it will take many rail lines to get people out of their cars and into the train.
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 18th, 2008, 08:06 AM   #1942
phattonez
Bleed Dodger Blue
 
phattonez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The City of Angels
Posts: 1,773
Likes (Received): 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
They look nice but USA, especially CA and East coast, needs an efficient railway development for passenger transport badly. I mean building more road cannot be an efficient and environmental solution. And here, biggest problem seems to be habits of people who cannot leave their car a moment.
Notice I haven't argued for any road widening in LA. In certain cities cars are the best options. In others you need rail. Right now, LA needs rail desperately. I've only argued for road improvement, not widening. LA needs to spend money on rail right now because we are too dense to not have other options.
__________________
“Violence is not necessary to destroy a civilization. Each civilization dies from
indifference toward the unique values which created it.” - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

"A wicked man puts up a bold front, but an upright man gives thought to his ways." - Proverbs 21: 29
phattonez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 11:38 AM   #1943
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

The Problem with LA is that they build hundreds of thousands of homes, without expanding freeways or railroads. Especially in the Inland Empire. Also, the number of jobs in the Inland Empire is not as high as the number of inhabitants, forcing people to commute long distances to the O.C. or LA County. Besides that, affordable housing is major problem in California, forcing people to live far away from work. However, commuting time is still shorter in LA (by 30%!) than in denser New York with many subways and railways.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 11:44 AM   #1944
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
I think it's been said before but the way a lot of U.S. cities are laid out, you need your car at some point to get somewhere without taking all day to get there. I would gladly take a train somewhere but if they put in a few lines, there will be so many destinations that are way too far to walk after you leave the station. Plus taking the car is a lot faster than taking the bus.

You don't have to wait for your car to arrive. You pretty much go at your own pace. Your car doesn't leave you 3 blocks away from the store you want to go to.

.
The problem with public transportation is that you have to enter the system somewhere you don't want to, and brings you somewhere you don't want to exactly. That's why private transport is in 95% of the times more efficient. I know that in the Netherlands, even with all traffic jams, the car is often faster than taking the bus or train.

Another problem with public transportation (railways), is that it's very expensive to add major amount of capacity. Even if you double PT ridership, that's only a few percent fewer cars on the road, which doesn't solve traffic jams, but costs you the number one price. It's just that a bigger scale difference in pretty much every city in the United States (perhaps except New York).

In metropolitan Los Angeles, the problem is also, that it's too big for a subway. No one would want to travel 60 miles with a subway. Then you have to go for lightrail, which is feasible, but expensive, because Los Angeles and metro is practically 100% build-up. Either solution would cost a major amount of money. (removing houses or go underground).
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 06:00 PM   #1945
hoosier
Registered User
 
hoosier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,446
Likes (Received): 58

God forbid anyone have to WALK anywhere. The car may be more efficient for the individual, barring traffic jams, which cripple most large cities, but it certainly is not efficient for the environment or in terms of its natural resource consumption. Roads take up far more space and can transport far less people than rail lines.

Public transport use in LA is incredibly large and all of its subway lines have very strong ridership. LA is densifying and people are using public tranit to get around more considering that the freeways are always clogged.
hoosier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 06:14 PM   #1946
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

Quote:
Roads take up far more space and can transport far less people than rail lines.
That is absolutely not true in most cities. If you say New York or Tokyo, i'd say, okay, but check this out:

Dutch statistics:

area:
railways: 99km2
main highways: 79km2

Transportation prestation:
Railways: 15.5 billion travelkilometers
Main highways: 68.1 billion travelkilometers

So the railways consume 25% more space, while it accumulates in 75% Less kilometers travelled.

In other words, the main highways handle 4.4 times more traffic on 1.2 times less space than railways

You do the math about which modality is more space-efficient. Things might be different in the United States, but are never more space-efficient than freeways.

You also have to remember, the Dutch railways are among the busiest in the world.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 06:16 PM   #1947
phattonez
Bleed Dodger Blue
 
phattonez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The City of Angels
Posts: 1,773
Likes (Received): 38

Chriszwolle, the car will always exist in LA, and that will never go away, but even you have to see that building new freeways just can't happen. It is way too dense for that.

Of course something like a subway all the way from Anaheim to LA wouldn't really work, how about one to Long Beach/San Pedro, or Santa Monica, or Century City. There are places where a subway would work and the question of building a freeway there just doesn't even come up anymore. Things are starting to change in LA. We no longer have the vast open space that allows freeways. The problem of distance that you brought up could be answered by commuter rail. There are 3 commuter rail lines that go to the Inland Empire from LA, and one from Orange County. It is a mode of transportation that is underutilized and deserves more focus. However, that will only work when the smaller localities decide to get streetcars, taxicabs, and their own metro systems.
__________________
“Violence is not necessary to destroy a civilization. Each civilization dies from
indifference toward the unique values which created it.” - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

"A wicked man puts up a bold front, but an upright man gives thought to his ways." - Proverbs 21: 29
phattonez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 06:31 PM   #1948
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

Quote:
Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
Chriszwolle, the car will always exist in LA, and that will never go away, but even you have to see that building new freeways just can't happen. It is way too dense for that.

Of course something like a subway all the way from Anaheim to LA wouldn't really work, how about one to Long Beach/San Pedro, or Santa Monica, or Century City. There are places where a subway would work and the question of building a freeway there just doesn't even come up anymore. Things are starting to change in LA. We no longer have the vast open space that allows freeways. The problem of distance that you brought up could be answered by commuter rail. There are 3 commuter rail lines that go to the Inland Empire from LA, and one from Orange County. It is a mode of transportation that is underutilized and deserves more focus. However, that will only work when the smaller localities decide to get streetcars, taxicabs, and their own metro systems.
That's exactly what i mean. But if you develop entire new area's, roadways also need to get attention. But a general misunderstandig is that if they build railways, nothing have to be done on freeways.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 06:49 PM   #1949
phattonez
Bleed Dodger Blue
 
phattonez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The City of Angels
Posts: 1,773
Likes (Received): 38

Well then it seems like I completely agree with you. The IE really needs roadwork done. All of the freeways out there were meant as rural freeway and now are way past intended capacity. They are extending Metrolink out to Perris, so that should be a good thing if anybody from all the way out there works in LA (I'd like to think not but you never know).

They are building carpool lanes on the 91 and they just completed two flyover ramps on the 60/91/215 interchange which I am planning on driving on sometime next week.

So anyway, where it's too dense for rail, the ROWs absolutely must be build on for commuter/light rail, no question about it. Of course a few subways are needed, but those can't go to far flung areas like Riverside. They should improve those areas with new suburbs, but something has to be done about all of this sprawl. It keeps going out and who knows, it might even go to Imperial County one day. But something needs to be corrected because we can't have people living 100 miles away from their jobs.
__________________
“Violence is not necessary to destroy a civilization. Each civilization dies from
indifference toward the unique values which created it.” - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

"A wicked man puts up a bold front, but an upright man gives thought to his ways." - Proverbs 21: 29
phattonez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 06:52 PM   #1950
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

What about the new urbanization north of the San Gabriel Mountains? (the Palmdale - Hesperia area).
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 06:59 PM   #1951
phattonez
Bleed Dodger Blue
 
phattonez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The City of Angels
Posts: 1,773
Likes (Received): 38

Well those can be cities in their own right, but you know that they're growing because of high housing prices in LA. People are basically forced to live out there because LA can't handle any more density and that's because the freeways are way past capacity. Every single road is at capacity. West LA is just blocks upon blocks upon blocks of cars just basically idling during rush hour. I'm hoping that the transportation problem can be solved to allow for more density so people don't have to live all the way out in BFE.
__________________
“Violence is not necessary to destroy a civilization. Each civilization dies from
indifference toward the unique values which created it.” - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

"A wicked man puts up a bold front, but an upright man gives thought to his ways." - Proverbs 21: 29
phattonez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 07:04 PM   #1952
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

LA needs some more apartment buildings apparantly. However, i do think the job centers are better distributed in LA and OC County than in other major US Cities. It's not all about downtown.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 07:11 PM   #1953
phattonez
Bleed Dodger Blue
 
phattonez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The City of Angels
Posts: 1,773
Likes (Received): 38

Yes, that's very true, and the easiest way to fix that would be with more freeways, but that's not possible. The problem with apartment buildings is that they're not zoned except for downtown really. The only exception is transit oriented developments. If a developer builds near a Metro station, then they can add more density. And this seems like a good idea.

The thing that needs to be done is somehow connecting all of these major job centers. Downtown, the Miracle Mile, Century City, Westwood, Brentwood (those 5 can be covered by one subway), Long Beach (already has the Blue Line), El Segundo, etc. The problem with OC is that they won't allow any rail lines in their county. They are obsessed with freeways to allow any such development. Except for commuter rail that is. But you have to love the work that they've done with the San Diego and Santa Ana Freeways. That is what interstates should look like.
__________________
“Violence is not necessary to destroy a civilization. Each civilization dies from
indifference toward the unique values which created it.” - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

"A wicked man puts up a bold front, but an upright man gives thought to his ways." - Proverbs 21: 29
phattonez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 10:46 PM   #1954
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,102
Likes (Received): 3706

Quote:
Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
Yes, that's very true, and the easiest way to fix that would be with more freeways, but that's not possible. The problem with apartment buildings is that they're not zoned except for downtown really. The only exception is transit oriented developments. If a developer builds near a Metro station, then they can add more density. And this seems like a good idea.

The thing that needs to be done is somehow connecting all of these major job centers. Downtown, the Miracle Mile, Century City, Westwood, Brentwood (those 5 can be covered by one subway), Long Beach (already has the Blue Line), El Segundo, etc. The problem with OC is that they won't allow any rail lines in their county. They are obsessed with freeways to allow any such development. Except for commuter rail that is. But you have to love the work that they've done with the San Diego and Santa Ana Freeways. That is what interstates should look like.
Is LA county going to change zoning lawing anytime soon cause if they want to want a build a world class mass transit system, they first need to change zoning for higher densities so more people can use it. Personally, I think its too late to build a mass transit system like those of Tokyo and London because most of LA metro is car centric sprawl and its too expensive to cover the whole area.

Last edited by LtBk; March 18th, 2008 at 10:53 PM.
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 18th, 2008, 11:53 PM   #1955
phattonez
Bleed Dodger Blue
 
phattonez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The City of Angels
Posts: 1,773
Likes (Received): 38

It is still possible, but it will have to be something like a park and ride system for outside of the main system.

The zoning laws will be changed when the infrastructure is in place. Right now the city just can't handle any more density.
__________________
“Violence is not necessary to destroy a civilization. Each civilization dies from
indifference toward the unique values which created it.” - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

"A wicked man puts up a bold front, but an upright man gives thought to his ways." - Proverbs 21: 29
phattonez no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2008, 12:46 AM   #1956
hoosier
Registered User
 
hoosier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,446
Likes (Received): 58

Over on SSP, there is a great thread that has a comprehensive rail transit system design for the LA metro area.

A great way to reduce car use in the exurbs of LA would be to have commuter rail parallel or service the same cities as the major freeways.

Unfortunately, the pattern of development in Orange And Riverside Counties is so auto-centric that rail won't ever be as efficient as the car, but that was done on purpose. Rail doesn't have to be less efficient than the car if we develop our cities correctly.

Last edited by hoosier; March 19th, 2008 at 12:54 AM.
hoosier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2008, 04:38 AM   #1957
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,102
Likes (Received): 3706

Once again LA shoots themselves in the foot again.
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2008, 04:40 AM   #1958
mgk920
Nonhyphenated-American
 
mgk920's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Appleton, WI USA
Posts: 2,583
Likes (Received): 68

Quote:
Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
It is still possible, but it will have to be something like a park and ride system for outside of the main system.

The zoning laws will be changed when the infrastructure is in place. Right now the city just can't handle any more density.
And yet, people keep moving in - and because the housing units for all of those move-ins are not allowed in the zoning code, a very active black market has developed for places to live. I have seen in articles in planning publications where there are some parts of Los Angeles where houses built for one family are being illegally shared by as many as *five*.

This housing black market is also being seen in other metros, most notably in Miami (where zoning has completely collapsed in some parts of the city) and in Suffolk County (eastern Long Island), New York.

*HOWEVER*, this discussion is staring to drift far away from the subject of one of the World's greatest highway systems and the joys of driving it, and I'd like to see some more discussion of that.

Mike
mgk920 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2008, 04:51 AM   #1959
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
The problem with public transportation is that you have to enter the system somewhere you don't want to, and brings you somewhere you don't want to exactly. That's why private transport is in 95% of the times more efficient. I know that in the Netherlands, even with all traffic jams, the car is often faster than taking the bus or train.

Another problem with public transportation (railways), is that it's very expensive to add major amount of capacity. Even if you double PT ridership, that's only a few percent fewer cars on the road, which doesn't solve traffic jams, but costs you the number one price. It's just that a bigger scale difference in pretty much every city in the United States (perhaps except New York).

In metropolitan Los Angeles, the problem is also, that it's too big for a subway. No one would want to travel 60 miles with a subway. Then you have to go for lightrail, which is feasible, but expensive, because Los Angeles and metro is practically 100% build-up. Either solution would cost a major amount of money. (removing houses or go underground).
Yeah, everything you stated sure is a problem. I wonder what the solution for urban transportation will be in the future. There has to be a way to eliminate traffic but we don't know what the formula is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
God forbid anyone have to WALK anywhere. The car may be more efficient for the individual, barring traffic jams, which cripple most large cities, but it certainly is not efficient for the environment or in terms of its natural resource consumption. Roads take up far more space and can transport far less people than rail lines.

Public transport use in LA is incredibly large and all of its subway lines have very strong ridership. LA is densifying and people are using public tranit to get around more considering that the freeways are always clogged.

Walking is the slowest and least efficient form of long distance transportation for humans. That's why people used horses in the past and now cars, trains and airplanes. When I go shopping I don't want to have to carry all my belongings 2 miles from the train station when I get off and hope that no one steals my merchandise. It's much better to put that in your car, lock the doors and get back to your house in 10 minutes instead of 2 hours.

What's good for the environment is generally bad and very uncomfortable for humans. The environment might like it better if I walked from Miami to Tampa along Interstate 75 but the same environment might kill me. Mosquitoes, alligators, high heat, potential lightning strikes...etc will all attack you during the possible 6 day journey. Contrast putting a human in a car. Very comfortable, nice seats, a/c, relative safety from the weather and maybe a 2 hour trip is much better than walking.
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 19th, 2008, 04:56 AM   #1960
phattonez
Bleed Dodger Blue
 
phattonez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The City of Angels
Posts: 1,773
Likes (Received): 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post

*HOWEVER*, this discussion is staring to drift far away from the subject of one of the World's greatest highway systems and the joys of driving it, and I'd like to see some more discussion of that.

Mike
Well we are at least talking about the effects of the freeway system in LA, so it hasn't drifted too far.

It would be interesting to see what has been more effective. Orange County has continued to pursue widening and carpool lanes and ramps on their freeways while LA has kind of had to push freeways aside to build rail (the only projects I can think of are the San Diego Freeway's Carpool Lanes and the Pomona Freeway's Carpool Lanes; everything else has been relatively minor).
__________________
“Violence is not necessary to destroy a civilization. Each civilization dies from
indifference toward the unique values which created it.” - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

"A wicked man puts up a bold front, but an upright man gives thought to his ways." - Proverbs 21: 29
phattonez no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
america, california, highway, highways, interstate, los angeles, united states, urban

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium