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Old November 22nd, 2005, 03:37 AM   #1
gych
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5 Most Dangerous Cities

The new list just came out and it was on CNN. can't find a link or remember it exactly, but it spelled more of the same old bad news for two major Midwest cities. Here is the list as I recall it:

1 Camden, NJ
2 Detroit
3 Saint Louis, MO
4 ?
5 Richmond, VA

More bad news for STL and Detroit, they cant seem to shake the slump. Anyone have the link to this year's list?
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 03:43 AM   #2
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What a bullshit, misleading, inconsistent, flawed list. Crime stats are totally subjective and do not use the same criteria from city to city based on physical boundaries. This list is crap. Not that STL is among the safest cities, but this list makes it sound like a danger zone, when in fact it is as safe as any major city-- some neighborhoods are great, some are terrible. Most of the violent crimes in the city are concentrated in a few select zip codes and this lame list doesn't account for that. It just makes blanket claims.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 03:45 AM   #3
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/21/cam....ap/index.html

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...63#post6299863

Isn't number 4 or higher Gary?
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 03:50 AM   #4
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I can guarantee that New Orleans will not be on that list after this year!! Almost all of our murderers were shipped to Texas after they almost drowned and they don't have the money to come back. I don't wish it on anyone, for sure, but, I'm glad they aren't coming back. We have had two murders in New Orleans since Hurricane Katrina and the population of the Southshore of Lake Pontchartrain has already swelled back to over 750,000 since the storm. We walk without fear at night for the first times of our lives. Metro New Orleans is arguable the safest metropolitan area in the US right now...hope it stays that way.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 03:57 AM   #5
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lol lol. How did I know the STL forumers would jump on this first. Stats are stats dude. I agree, STL is not one dangerous hole, but its pretty rough man--the murders and violent crime rates dont lie. The full list:

Listed as the most dangerous cities are: Camden, New Jersey; Detroit, Michigan; St. Louis, Missouri; Flint, Michigan; Richmond, Virginia; Baltimore, Maryland; Atlanta, Georgia; New Orleans, Louisiana; Gary, Indiana; Birmingham, Alabama.

So Flint was number 4--poor Michigan! And look how Gary is improving, lol.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 04:18 AM   #6
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^You don't get it. Yes, "stats are stats" but how did they arrive at these stats? By taking the number of crimes per capita in each city limit. Some city limits encompass 200 square miles or more, which include some suburban neighbohorhoods, and some cities encompass only 60 square miles or less (as is the case with STL), which are 100% urban. Of course the cities with the smaller limits will have higher crime because they are more urban demographically. Cities larger in area have diluted crime stats because they have a lot of neighborhoods that may as well be suburban. But there are plenty of neighborhoods within these more compact cities that are as safe as any great neighborhood in any city.

The thing cities like St. Louis have working against them is that the crimes are confined to very small city limits. But if you take these "statistics" at absolute value you are the fool. There are way, way too many variables from city to city for this to make any credible sense.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 04:34 AM   #7
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I don't want to make it sound like I'm completely debunking these figures, I just want to make clear that there is a lot more to consider than the numbers tell. What these numbers actually mean is that the cities at the top of the list have some very terrible, terrible neighborhoods, but they don't speak for the city at large. Some neighborhoods can be bad enough to offset the numbers for the whole city.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 04:45 AM   #8
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Hey man I'm not gonna lie.. St. Louis crime is pretty bad. I'm a student here and everyday I get an email about a crime that has happened in the St. Louis University area (Midtown STL). Not all are violent crimes, but I'm not surprised when I get an email saying someone has been raped, beaten, or held up with a gun. And these are just for the small area around our campus.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 04:49 AM   #9
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I totally diasagree with you Jive. The list is saying what it is. Saint Louis the CITY is 60 square miles of largely dangerous areas. There are certain areas of the actual city that are nice and we all know what they are.

I agree that its not fair to compare merged Louisville or merged Indy or Nashville or Jacksonville or what have you to STL, where the numbers get diluted by suburbs. But I do think STL's inner city neighborhoods are much more real and dangerous than these other cities. Take 60 square miles out of any major city and few would be as dangerous as those same 60 in STL. Detroit doesnt deny it, STL county residents dont deny it, why do STL forumers?

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Old November 22nd, 2005, 05:20 AM   #10
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^Bullshit. I don't think St. Louis is dangerous in general, I think it has some very bad neighborhoods which sink the numbers for the whole city. In general, it feels as safe as any place. People who live here know where not to go. It's just like anyplace else. You wouldn't wander into the bad neighborhoods of Chicago, Philadelphia or Washington, DC either. STL isn't any different. gych, please don't claim to know everything about every other city. Crime stats are not a consistent measure. They do not tell the whole story. How can you possibly deny that?
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 05:21 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raqoff25
Hey man I'm not gonna lie.. St. Louis crime is pretty bad. I'm a student here and everyday I get an email about a crime that has happened in the St. Louis University area (Midtown STL). Not all are violent crimes, but I'm not surprised when I get an email saying someone has been raped, beaten, or held up with a gun. And these are just for the small area around our campus.
Same could be said for any urban campus. St. Louis is not an exception when it comes to crime. Do you think the University of Chicago is in a wonderful part of town? What about Temple University in Philly? Marquette in Milwaukee? Think again. Same shit, different city.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 05:33 AM   #12
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Every city has their bad spots.
Louisville has the Shawnee, Chicasaw, WESTSIDE of downtown, Algonquin Park, Boxelda and Shag Bark, New Burg, Hell even some parts of J-Town. But those are not the areas people think about when they think of this city.
Same goes for St. louis now the simple fact that STL is over twice the size of Louisville is already going to tell you it has bad areas, same as Chicago, Atlanta, Birmingham, New Orleans, Indianapolis Ect. all big cities.
But unlike merged cities STL stats are determined by the city smaller city limits, which is where all the ghettos are, which consequently make it seem like the area of 300K (city limits) is the same around the entire area of 2 million plus.
Jive I really understand where you're coming from, when I lived in ATL in 2003 and those poverty stats got released they went by the Old city limits which ranked Louisville as the 2nd poorest city in the Country. Needless to say most people thought the entire area was a slum.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 05:35 AM   #13
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How can YOU possibly deny that. And quit comparing STL to much bigger cities. Sure Washington and Chicago have bad hoods, but they are much bigger cities with much more extensive nice areas and greater population who are upscale, live in the city, and thus bring down the crime average. You know DAMN WELL STL is nothing like Chicago or DC, etc. STL is a smallish city--330k population and declining. Even its metro is tiny compared to DC or Chicago. Yes, the majority of the hoods in STL are extremely dangerous with the only exceptions being PARTS of the far west (CWE) and parts of the south side.

Dont get mad at me dude. Im only the messenger. Look at the freaking stats, I dont know everything but the stats do! You like to use stats to pump STL but when the stats rain on STL you disown them and try to call ppl out!
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 05:36 AM   #14
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Why do you even bother defending our shitty crime ridden city on here, Jive? Don't waste your time with these people.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 05:40 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louisville playa
Every city has their bad spots.
Louisville has the Shawnee, Chicasaw, WESTSIDE of downtown, Algonquin Park, Boxelda and Shag Bark, New Burg, Hell even some parts of J-Town. But those are not the areas people think about when they think of this city.
Same goes for St. louis now the simple fact that STL is over twice the size of Louisville is already going to tell you it has bad areas, same as Chicago, Atlanta, Birmingham, New Orleans, Indianapolis Ect. all big cities.
But unlike merged cities STL stats are determined by the city smaller city limits, which is where all the ghettos are, which consequently make it seem like the area of 300K (city limits) is the same around the entire area of 2 million plus.
Jive I really understand where you're coming from, when I lived in ATL in 2003 and those poverty stats got released they went by the Old city limits which ranked Louisville as the 2nd poorest city in the Country. Needless to say most people thought the entire area was a slum.

the other fact is the old city of Louisville was about the same sq mileage as STL and only 70k difference in population. And you never see Louisville on the most dangerous city lists, despite serious inner city poverty. STL is nowhere near twice the size of Louisville, its just it has twice the suburbs, thus twice the metro. The two cities are actually very similar and I see what Jive is saying, but STL just seems to have less areas in the city limits to bring down the crime averages. either that or the STL poor population is more violent than other cities, but whatever the case, STL has more violent crimes PER CAPITA than many other similar sized cities. Remember STL only has around 330k ppl according to Census 2004!!!
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 05:53 AM   #16
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But Gych if you're saying that STL isn't twice as large as Louisville than you're basically demeaning the obvious size difference of Louisville (post merger) and Lexington.
The point is STL was a huge city in the past 900K in the actual city, whereas before Louisville merged it's largest population never even excelled passed 300K. STl is obviously larger than Louisville and along with the huge popultion is gonna be followed by crime, Point Blank. I don't think anyone should try to take the only stats that would belittle a city when there are so many more stats that would boost that city above their own.
Gych I don't know what the obsession is with trying to argue and compare Louisville to cities that are twice as large if not signifigantly larger like Saint Louis or Indianapolis, But it really is annoying me when you do because in return those forumers reply back with numerous insults about Louisville, that you can't even respond back to.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 06:08 AM   #17
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LouisvillePlaya, u are fucking ignorant man. Stay out of this. For one, Louisville reached peak populations of around 500k. For most of its history, it was top 20-30 in population. I am not comparing Louisville METRO, but I am comparing the old city of Louisville to the city of STL, they are alike in many many ways. The city of Louisville is 250k in 60 something square miles and the city of STL is 330k in 60 square miles. Demographically, the two cities are damn near identical, yet STL has much more crime. I am not comparing the metros. I am aware STL has a larger metro (with a much larger land area too). But we are comparing CITY to CITY by the old definition. I dont see how you can say a city that is 80k smaller isnt similar, yet it has less crime. This is a fair comparison.

But anyways, I am not trying to get in the comparison game. As stated, I have relatives in STL (county) and I like the city, but stats are stats. Much of the city is dangerous or the violent crime rate wouldnt be as high.

Last edited by gych; November 22nd, 2005 at 06:38 AM.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 06:55 AM   #18
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Everytime I go home and hang out in STL...I feel pretty safe. Not any different than I did walking around in NOLA (pre-Katrina). If you aren't into drug dealing and stay out of certain neighborhoods you are actually pretty safe in both cities from what I've seen. Most of the murders in both cities usually revolve the drug trade and gang turfs.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 12:56 PM   #19
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^Thank you.

Gych, you have absolutely no concept of scale. Nowhere did you hear me say that St. Louis is anywhere near the same size as Chicago or DC. It has nothing to do with population...it is SCALE. DC is nowhere near the size of Chicago either, but I use it as a relative measure. I am not denying in any way that St. Louis has very a very serious crime problem. I just don't think it's much worse than any other city of the same stock as these numbers would lead one to believe.

Gych, you are dense, so there's really no point in even trying to reason with you. It just makes me wonder why you're so interested in the Midwest forum when you live in the South. Strange.
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Old November 22nd, 2005, 01:09 PM   #20
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Expanding the Top 5 most dangerous city to top 25 according to the same source: Morgan Quitno--

1 Camden, NJ
2 Detroit, MI
3 St. Louis, MO
4 Flint, MI
5 Richmond, VA
6 Baltimore, MD
7 Atlanta, GA
8 New Orleans, LA
9 Gary, IN
10 Birmingham, AL
11 Richmond, CA
12 Cleveland, OH
13 Washington, DC
14 West Palm Beach, FL
15 Compton, CA
16 Memphis, TN
17 Dayton, OH
18 San Bernardino, CA
19 Springfield, MA
20 Cincinnati, OH
21 Oakland, CA
22 Dallas, TX
23 Newark, NJ
24 Hartford, CT
25 Little Rock, AR
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