daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 11th, 2007, 11:07 PM   #1981
elfabyanos
Dracuna Macoides
 
elfabyanos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brighton
Posts: 1,814
Likes (Received): 5

Thanks guys.
elfabyanos no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 12th, 2007, 12:11 AM   #1982
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
The Met should keep the express tracks between Wembley Park and Harrow-on-the-Hill though, they can go exclusively to Watford. It's no myth that the most simple of lines operate the best, look no further than Paris and Moscow!

What would happen to the Chesham branch though? I can't quite see Chiltern bothering with it.
Chesham's a fair sized town: I see no reason why it can't remain as a shuttle off-peak with through trains to Marylebone during the peaks.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 12:15 AM   #1983
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I agree totally... The Met and NR should be segregated and the Met terminate at Watford and Uxbridge only. It will make it easier for the S Stock seating layout to suit all of the SSR routes too.
except that the biggest fuss over seats has come from Northwood, which is on the Watford branch (which makes sense - Amersham-Rickmansworth can go Chiltern and is far enough up the line to get seats on the S stock anyway. Watford, Croxely and Moor Park can use the forward/backward facing seats - which, as considered better, will go first - and most of the sideways ones, leaving Northwood passengers on the worse sideways facing seats, or standing (neither of which they want to do), so bang goes that idea! seeing as there's going to be 7 and 8 car S stock, with the Met being the sole user of 8-car, 8-car might as well be different - IIRC, it will be anyway, as 7-car moves from the bad compramise to a more metro style seating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
What would happen to the Chesham branch though? I can't quite see Chiltern bothering with it.
there's an urban myth that it only is kept due to some LU bigwigs living out there. If it wasn't electrified, you could run the current few peak time trains to Marylebone, and then an hourly shuttle (Amersham service can be dropped off peak too) through the day. A fairly recent study tried to make it shuttle only, and failed.

Giving north of Moor Park to Chiltern will solve the problem of reduced peak time frequency up there - kind of funny, giving that we're talking commuter belt - lots of commuters, quiet inter-peaks. Amersham has a halving (just about) of the numbering of trains - 1 Chiltern (several non-stop, which don't stop at Amersham, as Chiltern don't get any fare off of Amersham passengers, and they will be swamped by them) and a Met every 34 minutes (rather than every 10/20 alternating).
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 12:33 AM   #1984
lasdun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 364
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I can't find it, can you post the text or a link.

The S Stock might have lower floors than current Subsurface stocks to avoid the step-up, but the notion that they're going to have Tube-height floors is ridiculous. What is the logic of engineering a step-down?
here is a link. http://districtdave.proboards39.com/...450#1160684670
lasdun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 12:42 AM   #1985
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

There is absolutely no logic in having the S Stock as having tube height floors, it's impossible anyway, as the wheels portrude into the passenger cabin, meaning the S Stock's doors would have to be a similar layout to the tube stock, they aren't. He probably means it "low floor" compared to the Electrostars that it's based on?
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 01:08 AM   #1986
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
except that the biggest fuss over seats has come from Northwood, which is on the Watford branch (which makes sense - Amersham-Rickmansworth can go Chiltern and is far enough up the line to get seats on the S stock anyway. Watford, Croxely and Moor Park can use the forward/backward facing seats - which, as considered better, will go first - and most of the sideways ones, leaving Northwood passengers on the worse sideways facing seats, or standing (neither of which they want to do), so bang goes that idea! seeing as there's going to be 7 and 8 car S stock, with the Met being the sole user of 8-car, 8-car might as well be different - IIRC, it will be anyway, as 7-car moves from the bad compramise to a more metro style seating.
Well the good folk of Northwood will just have to lump it... In the peak the majority of Tube customers wouldn't expect a seat so I don't see what makes these guys so special. Trains leave Wimbledon in the peak usually with no seats left but you don't hear residents of Wimbledon Park or Southfields moaning about it, and they have a 40 minute journey into The City to look forward to.

I think my idea of different seating arrangements in the 4-car and 3-car S Stock units is the most straightforward: 4-car units with more seats, 3 car with less. Therefore the routes currently worked by C Stock get 3+3 so a whole train of high capacity / low seating. The Met Line gets 4+4 so a whole train of lower capacity, high seating. The District can have a 3-car unit West end and 4-car East end, as the West end unit stands at the entrances to the platforms at the three main termini (Wimbledon, Richmond and Ealing) and so would become heaviest loaded in the morning peaks.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 01:11 AM   #1987
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasdun View Post
"As the 'S' is a low floor train, the cab seems huge. I would estimate that the cab is slightly bigger than a 'D' but without my tape measure I cannot be certain. There is a full size spatial mock up of the cab in Derby, I will see if I can get permission to post some photos. Don't hold your breath though!"

Low floor compared to what? I'm not convinced, not least as this sounds like a pretty anecdotal account written by someone who has see the mock up of the cab.

Yes the floors may well be a couple of inches lower than the current Subsurface stocks, which generally seem to be higher than all of the platforms they serve, but they surely won't be Tube stock height.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 01:33 AM   #1988
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Well the good folk of Northwood will just have to lump it... In the peak the majority of Tube customers wouldn't expect a seat so I don't see what makes these guys so special. Trains leave Wimbledon in the peak usually with no seats left but you don't hear residents of Wimbledon Park or Southfields moaning about it, and they have a 40 minute journey into The City to look forward to.

I think my idea of different seating arrangements in the 4-car and 3-car S Stock units is the most straightforward: 4-car units with more seats, 3 car with less. Therefore the routes currently worked by C Stock get 3+3 so a whole train of high capacity / low seating. The Met Line gets 4+4 so a whole train of lower capacity, high seating. The District can have a 3-car unit West end and 4-car East end, as the West end unit stands at the entrances to the platforms at the three main termini (Wimbledon, Richmond and Ealing) and so would become heaviest loaded in the morning peaks.
Bit of a problem there: the Circle/H&C will be 7 cars too...

I think the current plans are for lots of seating on the Met sub-fleet and C Stock style seating on the rest!
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 01:35 AM   #1989
micro
Registered User
 
micro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamburg, .de Home: everywhere
Posts: 1,260
Likes (Received): 107

Tubeman, London Overground looks like a circle with branches on this map: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...Overground.pdf

Do you know how it will be operated once completed in 2011? As a circle? As multiple lines? How many lines?
micro no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 01:57 AM   #1990
Minato ku
Moderator
 
Minato ku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Paris, Montrouge
Posts: 16,759

What will be the frequencies of London Overground ?
__________________
すみません !
J’aime Paris et je veux des tours !
Minato ku no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 02:33 AM   #1991
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

eventual (on current plans) frequencies are to be something like 4tph on (nb:unsure which northern termini will be what with the ELL):
Dalston - Whitechapel - West Croydon
Dalston - Whitechapel - Crystal Palace
Highbury & Islington - Whitechapel - New Cross
Highbury & Islington - Whitechapel - Clapham Junction
Stratford - Richmond
Stratford - Queens Park (probably Willesden Junction, unless Queens Park gets totally remodelled) via reopened station at Chalk Farm
Barking - Gospel Oak - Willesden Junction - Clapham Junction

these overlap to give 8tph Stratford-Camden Road, Willesden Junction-Gospel Oak, Highbury & Islington-Dalston and Surrey Quays-Sydenham. 16tph will run from Dalston to Surrey Quays.

Current services are
ELL (which is still London Underground, though will close for some time in December):
5tph New Cross-Whitechapel, 5tph New Cross Gate-Whitechapel
NLL: 4tph Richmond-Stratford
GOBLin: 2tph Gospel Oak-Barking
WLL: 2tph Clapham Junction-Willesden Junction

I'll let tubeman do the Bakerloo/DC lines, as he's far more informed than me on this.

Oh, and as for what makes Northwood people so special - they have it now and your are only just beginning to deny them the luxury that is A stock seating (compared to standing, or crappy longitudinal seating). If they didn't have it now, they wouldn't be complaining, but they do have the luxury of some of the most spacious trains in the UK, and by far the most comfortable seating on the underground network - high back, forward/backwards facing seats and they don't want to swap that for standing or crappy low back longitudinal seats. Seeing as the 7car and 8car S stock look likely to be completely different in terms of seating plan, the 8car design might as well just be A stock, but with better engine and more uniform parts, so as to allow easier maintenance. I know that it'll just be forced on the people of Northwood that they have to sit like that.

One also guesses that when the plans come to extend the Bakerloo to Watford, and stop the Euston services, there will be a similar seat quality outcry and a mass exodus to London Midland - the reason that they stopped the Bakerloo to Watford in the first place, was that no one used them, preferring either the slow DC line trains, or a change at Harrow or Wembley to the longer distance trains - they wanted comfort and Euston. When they reinstated services to Harrow, they worked out that it was the furthest place worth taking it as the people north of there wanted Euston far more than Paddington.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 02:49 AM   #1992
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

Quote:
Originally Posted by micro View Post
Tubeman, London Overground looks like a circle with branches on this map: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...Overground.pdf

Do you know how it will be operated once completed in 2011? As a circle? As multiple lines? How many lines?
I'm sorry if i'm nicking your questions Tubeman but...

No it won't be operated as a circle, that's mostly because trains from the east at Clapham Junction will face the same direction as trains from the north. (see here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:L...round_2007.png) Plus, there are operational difficulties with operating circular routes (ask Tubeman) just look at how unreliable the Circle line is...

As for frequency, this is Phase 1 (2010) The numbers indicate tph (trains per hour)



And Phase 2, which can only happen when the Bakerloo line is re-extended to Watford Junction



For more info see here: http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/43 It is slightly out of date, mind.

Last edited by iampuking; November 12th, 2007 at 05:07 AM.
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 03:28 AM   #1993
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

Tubeman I have a few questions...

-Why is the Tube so expensive?
-I've noticed there are suicide pits on the JLE, what's the point if it has PEDs?
-Is Gants Hill a cut-and-cover or tunnelled station?
-Why, at St John's Wood did they install a pair of overbright ceiling lights on the escalator shafts when the uplighters provided enough light already, is it a desperate bid to make the stations appear 'airly' (think that awful blue lighting) which I find funny considering grotty stations like Holland Park have sufficient lighting but a dreadful atmosphere!
-What dictates what type of tunnel lining is used? I've noticed at Westminster on the Jubilee line the exposed tunnel lining on the opposite side to the platform is metal, whereas at Waterloo and Southwark it is concrete. I've also read stuff about the Victoria line having different tunnel linings as well.

Thank you!

Last edited by iampuking; November 12th, 2007 at 04:22 AM.
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 09:23 AM   #1994
Songoten2554
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Miami Florida
Posts: 1,063
Likes (Received): 87

Tubeman i have some questions

1. is it true that electrifition of Railways have been stopped since privatalision or will they continue to electrify British railways?? alot??

2. is Network Rail in charge of the electrifition of British Railways and maintaining the infrustruce of the british rail

3. about Fenchurch Street railway station is it a great station or is not that good i hear only the C2C Railway goes there i think its a small station is liverpool street better then Fenchurch Street?
Songoten2554 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 11:46 AM   #1995
Gag Halfrunt
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 719
Likes (Received): 27

I was on the District line yesterday (Richmond to Hammersmith and back) and noticed that changes were already afoot on the North London Line. Both the NLL trains I saw had had their Silverlink logos covered, and at Kew Gardens and Gunnersbury new signs had been put up (over the old ones) with the station name in blue New Johnson type with the Underground logo on the left. At Kew Gardens, the Underground logo on each sign was itself covered by a square of black bin liner held on with parcel tape.

I suppose that TfL now regards Kew Gardens and Gunnersbury as Underground stations, since more District Line than NLL trains run through them.
Gag Halfrunt no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 12:10 PM   #1996
cle
Registered User
 
cle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,096
Likes (Received): 524

Went through Gunnersbury this morning, District driver made an announcement along the lines of "Finally you can use pre pay on the old Silverlink".

A couple of roundels had been roughly painted over Silverlink logos, and some PR people giving out free Cafe Nero vouchers and Overground leaflets, not much else changed so far!
cle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 07:21 PM   #1997
bigbossman
Registered User
 
bigbossman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South East London
Posts: 3,408
Likes (Received): 4

tubeman, i haven't asked anything for abit but here goes!!

-what do you reckon is more important, tube to areas of london without it, aka the tube to south london and hackney, or an over inflated east-west line, to serve the city and doclands fat cats?

-london overground is here now, do you reckon ken should get control of the south london metro lines when the franchise expires in 2009, i reckon they should integrate the rest of southern with first capital connect, and on the south coast areas with SWT, then the metro services can be combined with london overground. what do you think, they could then simplfy south london rail so much and'd be on the map!!

-why can't they pull their finger out and open the northern heights all the way to moorgate as another overground line.then possibly extend it through to cannon street or something, linking with the south london metro lines, creating in essence a new north south line which could relieve the northern maybe??

-why does it take so long for us to plan and build transport infrastructure, it's pointless, if this was a foregn country we'd have the northern heights, the victoria would be inc roydon the bakerloo in ahyes, the northern wouldve been split and would probably be in extended from kennington to, chelney wouldve been built, crossrail wouldve been buil etc etc!!

-with dlr extension to charing cross why don't they open a station under tower hill which i heard was possible, close tower gateway, and run the dlr alongthe old fleet line alignment to charing cross, keeping the bank spur as a separate branh, leaving two well connected central london lines.

-and finally totally unrelated, do you think we'll win the league this season?

cheers
bigbossman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 07:24 PM   #1998
bigbossman
Registered User
 
bigbossman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South East London
Posts: 3,408
Likes (Received): 4

- oh yeah a couple more, i dont think TfL have carefully considered how busy the london overground will get, i think the proposed frequencies are pitful, i think the stratford- highbury and islington section will need more than 8 trains per hour 4 coach trains, i know they may be extended to 6, but when are they gonna realise people want more frequent trains not longer trains. they need to get it up to at least 12 trains an hour imho, what do you think??
bigbossman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 07:34 PM   #1999
sweek
Registered User
 
sweek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London NW1
Posts: 1,636
Likes (Received): 1

Made a little trip on the Overground today. Harringay Green Lanes to Gospel Oak, and then to Richmond. Not much has changed so far, although I did see staff in nice new jackets on my trains. I've barely ever seen staff on these trains before. And there were people at Richmond station working on putting up the signs.

Maps are slowly being updated across the network it seems. It's good to see all of this happening, anyway! I hope we'll see those 4 tph from Barking to Clapham Junction some time soon.
sweek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2007, 08:39 PM   #2000
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Bit of a problem there: the Circle/H&C will be 7 cars too...

I think the current plans are for lots of seating on the Met sub-fleet and C Stock style seating on the rest!
At one point it was considered to have all S Stocks 7 car, which would have caused massively expensive platform extensions at some Circle Line stations and under-used capacity on the Met. I'm pretty certain S Stocks will be 3 and 4 car units with 4+4 on the Met, 4+3 on the District and 3+3 on the Circle / H&C. If they do anything else, it's idiotic IMO.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
london, railways, tube

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium