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Old November 17th, 2007, 01:10 PM   #2061
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme View Post
Why is everyone so hard on Songoten2554?
Mostly because he has a history of ignoring (in other threads) any suggestion of fact which denies some of his wilder flights of fancy.

Further, I have tried to engage him in a dialogue but he has never yet answered one of my questions. With Songoten everything is a one way street.
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Old November 17th, 2007, 02:37 PM   #2062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
Mostly because he has a history of ignoring (in other threads) any suggestion of fact which denies some of his wilder flights of fancy.

Further, I have tried to engage him in a dialogue but he has never yet answered one of my questions. With Songoten everything is a one way street.
Alright well keep this crap out of my thread please
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Old November 17th, 2007, 07:46 PM   #2063
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please people don't fight here jeeze lets keep it to the topic

i guess your right i am not the most mature person in here but i do know somethings and well i am sorry trainman davie for dissapointting you or anybody here the fact here is that i am pretty young here i am just 21 and well i am like a kid at times

Tubeman:lets be on topic so umm you say FCC is bad??? hmm never thought about it but i understand since you do work in a major postion your the professional here though i heard that now they are starting to do the Thameslink Programme and the Luton Airport Parkway is going to be extended

well hopefully the FCC will get better with the Thameslink Programme gets completed
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Old November 17th, 2007, 09:31 PM   #2064
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also what about Southeastern trains are they good you know i don't know if they have good service and also Southern trains as well
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Old November 18th, 2007, 01:15 AM   #2065
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i use Southeastern for my daily commute and at rush hour it feels like the network is full ... i dont see how they can increase the number of trains because currently at my station which is a standard station ie only two platforms ... there are around 8-10 trains an hour at peak times to either victoria, charing cross or cannon street ... and almost every train is full by the time they reach lewisham ( in-bound) ...
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Old November 18th, 2007, 01:43 AM   #2066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Songoten2554 View Post
i heard that now they are starting to do the Thameslink Programme and the Luton Airport Parkway is going to be extended
well hopefully the FCC will get better with the Thameslink Programme gets completed
Yeah Thameslink 2000, the initiative so old that both parts of its name are now out of date!
FCC is moving from 'Kings Cross Thameslink' to 'St Pancras International' on 9 December 2007.
While this will be great for interchange with Eurostar and the Circle/H+C/Met lines it'll make it worse for interchange with the Victoria and Piccadilly lines.

I'm not really clear exactly where the new FCC platforms are. Does anyone know where there is a diagram? I know they connect to the new Kings Cross Western ticket hall. I presume they are to the north of it and deeper than the Circle line platforms?
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Old November 18th, 2007, 04:41 AM   #2067
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Yeah Thameslink 2000, the initiative so old that both parts of its name are now out of date!
FCC is moving from 'Kings Cross Thameslink' to 'St Pancras International' on 9 December 2007.
While this will be great for interchange with Eurostar and the Circle/H+C/Met lines it'll make it worse for interchange with the Victoria and Piccadilly lines.

I'm not really clear exactly where the new FCC platforms are. Does anyone know where there is a diagram? I know they connect to the new Kings Cross Western ticket hall. I presume they are to the north of it and deeper than the Circle line platforms?
The new FCC station is directly below the western edge of St Pancras, set back a few hundred metres from the road. The line curves around from the main road quite sharply from west to north, as soon as it becomes straight the platforms start, they continue the entire length of St Pancras station give or take.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 12:02 PM   #2068
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I'm really impressed that I managed to type that error-free at 02:41 this morning considering I was absolutely hammered.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 05:03 PM   #2069
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Did you draw that diagram? I'm impressed!
thanks very much!
It's not that hard, it's just paint, line tool, a perfectionist attitude and quite a bit of spare time (I think it took me two hours in total from coming up with the idea to finishing the layout). I was annoyed, as I couldn't find my Quail atlas, so I had to use Google Earth to double check the current track layout.

However the diagram is only a way of conveying my idea - that's the important thing.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 09:35 PM   #2070
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thanks very much!
It's not that hard, it's just paint, line tool, a perfectionist attitude and quite a bit of spare time (I think it took me two hours in total from coming up with the idea to finishing the layout). I was annoyed, as I couldn't find my Quail atlas, so I had to use Google Earth to double check the current track layout.

However the diagram is only a way of conveying my idea - that's the important thing.
I'm currently re-drawing my atlas to show exact track diagrams... Very time-consuming: I'm managing about a page a week, it's looking really good though. I'm hoping this second edition will be out in about 6 months tops.

I'm cross-referencing everything on Google earth and am using old OS maps on old-maps.co.uk to get the layouts of former goods yards and sidings right.
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Old November 18th, 2007, 11:03 PM   #2071
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I bought the last one, and I'll be buying this updated one. Thanks for keeping it going.

Any chance of extending it to Hemel Hempstead? I use this length a lot and would love to see the changes made over time. Especially the old disused line that went through the town center and then to St. Albans (?)
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Old November 18th, 2007, 11:15 PM   #2072
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I really like the atlas too! I wonder if it would be an option to have a streetmap (in very light colours so it doesn't distract from actual railways) underneath the lines. Do you think that'll ever be possible, would it be too much?
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Old November 19th, 2007, 12:01 AM   #2073
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I really like the atlas too! I wonder if it would be an option to have a streetmap (in very light colours so it doesn't distract from actual railways) underneath the lines. Do you think that'll ever be possible, would it be too much?
It's in the "I'd like to eventually but too much grief at present" box... Also unless it's done just right it'd just make the atlas cluttered and potentially detract from it rather than add to it.

The maps are copied by eye from the A to Z (each page = 4 A to Z pages) and so aren't 100% accurate in terms of precise routes. Maybe one option would be to scan the A to Z pages and reduce them to very faint greyscale and then draw the railways on top, but obviously for copyright reasons I can't do this.

In an ideal world I'd use Google Earth as a guide so spatially the atlas would be spot on, but to be accurate the lines representing the tracks would need to be very light (as in narrow) to prevent large yards and depots becoming distorted. With my current re-drawing of the atlas some of the larger yards are becoming a bit distorted in terms of area, but I'm happy to put up with this in order to produce a definitive, accurate track map of London which is pleasing to look at through geographical accuracy rather than sheer functionality of the Quail diagrams.
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Old November 19th, 2007, 11:36 PM   #2074
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Sounds like a labour of love. I've recently started mapping all the various high-speed lines in Europe as paths on Google Earth, mainly because I'm extremely frustrated that there aren't any decent up-to-date diagrams in the public domain, and it's becoming quite good fun...
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Old November 23rd, 2007, 12:37 AM   #2075
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yo tubeman, a few more for ya.

- now that crossrail has been transferred to Tfl whats it's future, london underground line, with modified overhead wire s-stock maybe?? do you reckon they'll be any changes like dropping shenfield for a more concentrated service to docklands.

-on the crossrail, couldnt they divert the paddington reversers down the hammersmith and city, or would the platform extensions be too expensive, then you take those trains off of the subsurface adding capactiy

-is a circle line really necessary? would it be beneficial to take away the circle line and mayb even grade separate the whole subsurface network, by doing what i said above, extending maybe the edgeware road trains to terminate at baker street, getting rid of the cirle and running more trains down to wimbledon, richmond and ealing, then mahbe extending the metropolitan trains from baker street and aldgate under the river somewhere, then you will only have the conflict at earls court, could that be manageable, workable??

-will chelney ever be bult, i here it had better cost/benefits than crossrail, surely it would relieve the network better than crossrail??

-oh yeah and how possible is it to quadruple the inner circle?? like from baker street-faringdon?
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Old November 23rd, 2007, 02:37 AM   #2076
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Tubeman, what is the point of that beeping noise on the lifts? Is it just to make you nervous so you hurry up?

And i'm a bit concerned about this whole "air-conditioning on the SSLs" thing... I know there are gaps in the tunnels designed to vent steam, but for example between Embankment and Aldgate East there are practically none, the same goes for Farringdon to Edgware Road... Won't these stations get boiling in the summer... Think NY.
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Old November 23rd, 2007, 03:28 PM   #2077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
yo tubeman, a few more for ya.

- now that crossrail has been transferred to Tfl whats it's future, london underground line, with modified overhead wire s-stock maybe?? do you reckon they'll be any changes like dropping shenfield for a more concentrated service to docklands.
If anything it'll be a part of the 'Overground' network in branding and organisation: Crossrail will never operationally be able to integrate with the LU network because of the vast difference in train lengths (12 versus 6-8 cars) so I suspect it will be kept very much separate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-on the crossrail, couldnt they divert the paddington reversers down the hammersmith and city, or would the platform extensions be too expensive, then you take those trains off of the subsurface adding capactiy
Nice idea, but some of the stations on the H&C Line are probably a Crossrail train's length apart (especially with the new station at Wood Lane)... so to serve all of the stations you'd probably end up with a continuous platform from Wood Lane to Goldhawk Road!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-is a circle line really necessary? would it be beneficial to take away the circle line and mayb even grade separate the whole subsurface network, by doing what i said above, extending maybe the edgeware road trains to terminate at baker street, getting rid of the cirle and running more trains down to wimbledon, richmond and ealing, then mahbe extending the metropolitan trains from baker street and aldgate under the river somewhere, then you will only have the conflict at earls court, could that be manageable, workable??
In a word, no ("is a circle line really necessary?"). The only disbenefit of not having the Circle Line is that some journeys would be broken into two trips with a change. If this disbenefit is outweighed with greater capacity and reliability then I think it's justified. One option I like is to have the Metropolitan Line dive into a tube tunnel at Baker Street and stop at Oxford Circus, Tottenham Court Road and Holborn before surfacing at Farringdon to take over the soon to be abandoned southern pair of tracks between there and Moorgate. This would have the line completely separate and provide West End stations as well as a City terminus.

There are so many ways to skin a cat with regard to re-organising the SSR routes into something better operationally, but they pretty much all involve expensive new tunnels and grade-separated junctions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-will chelney ever be bult, i here it had better cost/benefits than crossrail, surely it would relieve the network better than crossrail??
Probably not in my lifetime, and yes I think it would be a good relief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-oh yeah and how possible is it to quadruple the inner circle?? like from baker street-faringdon?
It is possible, but the new tracks would have to be deep-level tube tunnel below the existing route. I suppose it would make sense to have 'fast' below and the existing lines 'slow', but then transfer between the two would be difficult. Alternatively, eastbound above and westbound below or vice versa but as almost all of the stations have a pair of tracks flanked by platforms (as opposed to island platfoms) whichever direction takes the existing tunnel wouldn't have cross-platform interchange between fast and slow.
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Old November 23rd, 2007, 03:31 PM   #2078
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Tubeman, what is the point of that beeping noise on the lifts? Is it just to make you nervous so you hurry up?
Same as door chimes on trains I suppose: to kitigate against complaints of being unexpectedly caught in the doors and for the benefit of the blind / VIPs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
And i'm a bit concerned about this whole "air-conditioning on the SSLs" thing... I know there are gaps in the tunnels designed to vent steam, but for example between Embankment and Aldgate East there are practically none, the same goes for Farringdon to Edgware Road... Won't these stations get boiling in the summer... Think NY.
Yes that is a bit of a danger I suppose, a lot of the steam-venting gaps have been covered over and the mostly once-open stations have often been built over (e.g. Gloucester Road, Mansion House, Blackfriars etc).
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Old November 23rd, 2007, 03:31 PM   #2079
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Anyone hear me interviewed on BBC London radio 94.9 this morning?
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Old November 23rd, 2007, 05:26 PM   #2080
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In a word, no ("is a circle line really necessary?"). The only disbenefit of not having the Circle Line is that some journeys would be broken into two trips with a change. If this disbenefit is outweighed with greater capacity and reliability then I think it's justified. One option I like is to have the Metropolitan Line dive into a tube tunnel at Baker Street and stop at Oxford Circus, Tottenham Court Road and Holborn before surfacing at Farringdon to take over the soon to be abandoned southern pair of tracks between there and Moorgate. This would have the line completely separate and provide West End stations as well as a City terminus.
wouldn't it be better to not follow Crossrail? Also the Northern circle will be rather depleted in terms of services, as the Met makes up half of them. You can't have 2 services on the South Circle, as the district gets in the way. I guess you could have the T-cup extended back round to Aldgate (so it does the handle and one and a half circles), the Hammersmith and City as is, and the Wimbleware trains extended round to Aldgate, but that's rather ugly and involves some nasty journeys. An other idea would be to triple Hamersmith-Paddington service (or make High Street Ken 1.5 times the frequency, though I don't think Earl's Court could cope with a near doubling of Olympia trains) and have Hammersmith/Olympia - Aldgate, T-Cup just to Edgware Road and Wimblewares all the way round the top, with H&C back to normal.

Alternately, build some tracks along the GWML and across the railway lands to Willesden Junction, and take over the DC lines north of there (cross-platform with the Bakerloo) and have half service up there, with the other half going to Hammersmith. The Watford route could replace the Met, so end at Aldgate and the Hammersmiths can go to Barking/Edgware Road via South Ken - it doesn't need tunneling, though it does require some new surface line, and a remodel of Willesden Junction.
Quote:
There are so many ways to skin a cat with regard to re-organising the SSR routes into something better operationally, but they pretty much all involve expensive new tunnels and grade-separated junctions.
my favourite has to be building a large grade seperated junction between Liverpool Street/Tower Hill and Whitechapel. Basically Aldgate becomes a stabling yard. Aldgate East becomes a reverse direction cross platform interchange (so you end up going the way you came - the cross platforms will be very one way, as no one would want to go back to Whitechapel, however you could do Liverpool Street-Tower Hill and vice versa with a cross platform) and Whitechapel becomes a terminus (with reversing tracks beyond) for the H&C), with a right way cross platform interchange (thus allowing District line people to make one change and be able to get to Liverpool Street.

Service pattern would be as follows:
District: Wimbledon-Upminster
Richmond-Upminster
Ealing Broadway-Barking (extension from Tower Hill)
Edgware Road - Barking via South Ken (rerouting of south side of T-cup)
other: Wimbledon - Whitechapel via Baker Street
Hammersmith - Whitechapel
Uxbridge - Moorgate (short turn to stop Whitechapel being overloaded)
Watford - Moorgate (ditto)

Moorgate would be made better by using the Thameslink tracks - have the outside two from just East of Farringdon as the through ones and the inner two as terminating tracks. This would involve a connection from the southern most track at Moorgate to the inner circle and a rejig of the area just east of Farringdon. The latter will be far harder than the former.

The cost would be huge, of course!
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