daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 14th, 2005, 01:26 AM   #201
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

My thread is dying

Ask me more!
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 14th, 2005, 01:27 AM   #202
DonQui
BANNED
 
DonQui's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Free City-State of New York
Posts: 6,035
Likes (Received): 10

Do you think crossrail will be as complementary and integrated with the Underground as the RER is with the Parisian metro?
DonQui no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2005, 01:40 AM   #203
pricemazda
Titter ye not.
 
pricemazda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: EU
Posts: 17,642
Likes (Received): 1384

I think if and it is still a big IF crossrail gets built they will integrate it with Thameslink.
__________________
In Brussels no one hears you scream
pricemazda no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2005, 03:25 PM   #204
CharlieP
Tax avoider
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 23,762
Likes (Received): 1980

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rational Plan
So if the did want to extend the DLR to the West End and the trains could fit those tunnels then the only tunnel they would have to build is from Bank to Aldwych and they would only have to build two stations as the Charing Cross platforms could be reopened.
The only problem is that the DLR lines turn to face north before running into the Bank/Monument complex, so aren't pointing in the right direction to get to the Jubilee line spur - they'd have to either loop all the way back round or re-site the DLR Bank platforms...
__________________
This signature is socialist and un-American.
CharlieP no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2005, 03:56 PM   #205
empersouf
Registered User
 
empersouf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,202
Likes (Received): 22

Are there any new lines opened in the future, please post a map or something please, im very interested.
empersouf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2005, 07:56 PM   #206
Rational Plan
Registered User
 
Rational Plan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Slough
Posts: 3,672
Likes (Received): 678

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP
The only problem is that the DLR lines turn to face north before running into the Bank/Monument complex, so aren't pointing in the right direction to get to the Jubilee line spur - they'd have to either loop all the way back round or re-site the DLR Bank platforms...
It all depends, I suppose, on whether they face directly north like the Northern line or North Westerly. I thought the DLR was directly under King William Street? Well, we will only find out how ambitious the proposed western scheme is when they finally publish the study.
Rational Plan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2005, 09:12 PM   #207
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQui
Do you think crossrail will be as complementary and integrated with the Underground as the RER is with the Parisian metro?
It will be better integrated insofar as the interchanges with the Tube will be better... Paris seems to have sprawling labrynthine stations where 3 different Metro stations interlink with an RER station... all a bit confusing.

Crossrail will be explicitly tailored to compliment the Tube and act as a relief line for the West-East Tube lines (esp. Central).
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2005, 09:14 PM   #208
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rational Plan
It all depends, I suppose, on whether they face directly north like the Northern line or North Westerly. I thought the DLR was directly under King William Street? Well, we will only find out how ambitious the proposed western scheme is when they finally publish the study.
Correct; the DLR platforms are aligned with King William Street and so point WNW, no great obstacle to a westwards extension towards Fleet Street.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2005, 09:20 PM   #209
pricemazda
Titter ye not.
 
pricemazda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: EU
Posts: 17,642
Likes (Received): 1384

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
It will be better integrated insofar as the interchanges with the Tube will be better... Paris seems to have sprawling labrynthine stations where 3 different Metro stations interlink with an RER station... all a bit confusing.

Crossrail will be explicitly tailored to compliment the Tube and act as a relief line for the West-East Tube lines (esp. Central).
I find the central line to be fine and not the worst when it comes to overcrowding, the Bakerloo at peak times is unbearable and the jubilee line is a mess as well.
__________________
In Brussels no one hears you scream
pricemazda no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2005, 10:46 PM   #210
sarflonlad
Registered User
 
sarflonlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,086
Likes (Received): 68

Thanks Tubeman for all the effort and answers you've given here - brilliant!

Earlier this week (I forget which day) a train (SWT) I boarded got diverted just after Wimbledon and ended up following the district line through to one of the putney stops (many quizical faces on the district line platforms as a proper overground train passed by) then via wandsworth town (i think - it didnt stop) to clapham junction and on to Waterloo as scheduled.

This happens usually when they are doing engineering between Wimbledon and Vauxhall - it allows services to be run (with district line being reduced) as "normal" offering a quicker way to central london than the tube (and I swear more trains depart an hour from wimbledon to waterloo than north bound tubes).

Anyway... how is this organised? Who is responsible for the signalling? On the day I mentioned above, the district line continued to run alongside the overground trains... how? Also doesn't the tube use 2 current rails - is the system compatible with both types of train then? Does this technically mean overground trains could run all the way to upminister via central london (a crossrail if you will)? Why don't they create a new tube route following this 'divert' line to say Clapham Junction or Vauxhall - or even to the spare capacity to be created at Waterloo when Eurostar leaves - connecting South London beyond Zone 3 better in to the system e.g. The Hampton Line - running from Hampton Court via New Malden, Raynes Park, Wimbledon, Wimbledon Park, Southfields, East Putney, Wandsworth Town, Clapham J, Waterloo (as I understand the District Line would have gone all the way to Kingston following presumably the SWT route from Wimbledon to Kingston, alas dosh ran out).

If you can answer any of that Id be most interested to hear! Sorry if that waffle was a bore.

Last edited by sarflonlad; December 14th, 2005 at 10:59 PM.
sarflonlad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2005, 12:56 AM   #211
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarflonlad
Thanks Tubeman for all the effort and answers you've given here - brilliant!

Earlier this week (I forget which day) a train (SWT) I boarded got diverted just after Wimbledon and ended up following the district line through to one of the putney stops (many quizical faces on the district line platforms as a proper overground train passed by) then via wandsworth town (i think - it didnt stop) to clapham junction and on to Waterloo as scheduled.

This happens usually when they are doing engineering between Wimbledon and Vauxhall - it allows services to be run (with district line being reduced) as "normal" offering a quicker way to central london than the tube (and I swear more trains depart an hour from wimbledon to waterloo than north bound tubes).

Anyway... how is this organised? Who is responsible for the signalling? On the day I mentioned above, the district line continued to run alongside the overground trains... how? Also doesn't the tube use 2 current rails - is the system compatible with both types of train then? Does this technically mean overground trains could run all the way to upminister via central london (a crossrail if you will)? Why don't they create a new tube route following this 'divert' line to say Clapham Junction or Vauxhall - or even to the spare capacity to be created at Waterloo when Eurostar leaves - connecting South London beyond Zone 3 better in to the system e.g. The Hampton Line - running from Hampton Court via New Malden, Raynes Park, Wimbledon, Wimbledon Park, Southfields, East Putney, Wandsworth Town, Clapham J, Waterloo (as I understand the District Line would have gone all the way to Kingston following presumably the SWT route from Wimbledon to Kingston, alas dosh ran out).

If you can answer any of that Id be most interested to hear! Sorry if that waffle was a bore.
Not at all, I'm pretty good authority on the matter working on the District Line

The Wimbledon Branch has an interesting history of which the current working arrangements are a hangover...

The District Railway got as far as Putney Bridge on the north bank of the Thames 'under its own steam' so to speak. It long had aspirations to cross the river and reach the affluent suburbs of Putney, Wimbledon and Kingston, but never had enough money. The London & South-Western Railway (LSWR), who built all of the routes out of Waterloo, did however have the money and so built the loop from Wandsworth Town (Point Pleasant Junction) via East Putney, Southfields and Wimbledon Park to their existing Wimbledon station. They also built the viaduct from East Putney down to and across the river to connect with the District Railway's Putney Bridge station, all of these new works opening in 1889. The District railway immediately had running powers to Wimbledon, all that LSWR asked in return was the right to run their trains off the main line and over the District railway to South Kensington, powers they never bothered to exercise.

So, since 1889 the District Railway had been serving Wimbledon via LSWR infrastructure. LSWR (later Southern Railway) also provided their own regular passenger services via East Putney / Southfields / Wimbledon Park until 1941, when regular services were withdrawn, but occasional services called until 1969. Despite the withdrawal of regular passenger trains, British Railways (as it then was) were keen to retain the route as it was a very useful diversionary route as well as providing easier access to their depot at Wimbledon Park. The boundary between LUL and British Rail was always halfway across the bridge at Putney, the significance of which I will return to regarding your question about power supply. Signalling beyond Putney Bridge remained under British Rail control.

This arrangement worked fine until 1994 when the 'Thames Bubbler', a huge barge which plies the river pumping in oxygen in the Summer for the wildlife's benefit, rammed the bridge. British rail owned half of it, and as they had never (nor any of their predescessors) run any trains over it, refused to repair it. District Line trains were suspended for some months to one of their most lucrative catchment areas (Southfields station is the highest-grossing station for season tickets on the network). A solution was hatched whereby the entire route from Putney Bridge to Wimbldeon would be sold to London Underground for the princley sum of £1 (I kid you not!) on the proviso British rail could retain control of the signalling and have unlimited access to the branch for diversions and stock movements.

This occurred, the bridge was repaired, and we now have today's bizarre situation whereby London Underground owns the route but has no control over the signals and whenever South West Trains feel like it they can route as many of their trains as they wish over our property and we can't do a thing about it. Also, as soon as District Line trains get halfway across the river they have to obey Network Rail rules & regulations (which vary wildly from ours) so all of our Drivers and Managers need to be au fait with Network Rail's procedures.

Your observation about power supply is correct; LUL uses 4th rail and NR 3rd rail. Main Line trains pick up (approx) 750V DC from their 3rd rail and feed it back through the running rails (i.e. what the wheels run on). LUL trains use a bizarre system whereby 420V DC is collected from the 'Positive' Rail (the one on the outside) and 210V DC from the 'Negative' Rail (the one in the middle), giving a total of 630V DC. The LUL trains that run onto Network Rail infrastructure (i.e. District and Bakerloo) are able to also pick up the 750V DC through the Positive shoes and return the current via the Negative shoes, so whereas the middle current rail on LUL is live, on Network Rail routes used by LUL its just a return. Beacuse of the incompatability, there is a gap in the current rails halfway across Putney Rail Bridge at the former boundary of property to prevent a train from bridging the gap.

An LUL train must have the Middle rail otherwise it would stall, and Main Line trains cannot run onto our infrastructure because the only current rail they'd contact, the Positive, gives a feeble 420V compared to the 750V they need. I'm pretty sure also that if they did they'd try to return current via our running rails, which would blow up all of the signalling circuits.

I hope I have explained adequately without baffling you with science? Please don't make me draw diagrams!
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2005, 01:38 PM   #212
empersouf
Registered User
 
empersouf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,202
Likes (Received): 22

Are there any new lines opened in the future, please post a map or something please, im very interested.
empersouf no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2005, 02:11 PM   #213
nick_taylor
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth (term time); Bishop's Stortford (out of term time)
Posts: 1,818
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarflonlad
Thanks Tubeman for all the effort and answers you've given here - brilliant!

Earlier this week (I forget which day) a train (SWT) I boarded got diverted just after Wimbledon and ended up following the district line through to one of the putney stops (many quizical faces on the district line platforms as a proper overground train passed by) then via wandsworth town (i think - it didnt stop) to clapham junction and on to Waterloo as scheduled.

This happens usually when they are doing engineering between Wimbledon and Vauxhall - it allows services to be run (with district line being reduced) as "normal" offering a quicker way to central london than the tube (and I swear more trains depart an hour from wimbledon to waterloo than north bound tubes).

Anyway... how is this organised? Who is responsible for the signalling? On the day I mentioned above, the district line continued to run alongside the overground trains... how? Also doesn't the tube use 2 current rails - is the system compatible with both types of train then? Does this technically mean overground trains could run all the way to upminister via central london (a crossrail if you will)? Why don't they create a new tube route following this 'divert' line to say Clapham Junction or Vauxhall - or even to the spare capacity to be created at Waterloo when Eurostar leaves - connecting South London beyond Zone 3 better in to the system e.g. The Hampton Line - running from Hampton Court via New Malden, Raynes Park, Wimbledon, Wimbledon Park, Southfields, East Putney, Wandsworth Town, Clapham J, Waterloo (as I understand the District Line would have gone all the way to Kingston following presumably the SWT route from Wimbledon to Kingston, alas dosh ran out).

If you can answer any of that Id be most interested to hear! Sorry if that waffle was a bore.
Thats absolutely amazing and crazy! I use SWT a lot between Portsmouth and London, but I never knew that they could end up going off and then taking an alternative route!
nick_taylor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2005, 09:24 PM   #214
sarflonlad
Registered User
 
sarflonlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,086
Likes (Received): 68

Tubeman = legend. Thanks very much! I had no idea the wimbledon area was so complicated or the politics of who owns what. The incident with putney bridge - it's like equivalent of a landlord not repairing damage to their property because they don't live in it then selling it to you for a £1 but still wanting to come in and use it on demand!

Quote:
Thats absolutely amazing and crazy! I use SWT a lot between Portsmouth and London, but I never knew that they could end up going off and then taking an alternative route!
Tell me about it! It makes a nice change of scenery when it does happen. When diverted, often the long distance trains out of waterloo (to portsmouth etc.) will operate as 'commuter' until wimbledon where it returns back on to the high speed lines (crossing over several platforms). It may happen to you yet - just book your tickets when they have engineering planned towards Clapham!
sarflonlad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2005, 09:37 PM   #215
CharlieP
Tax avoider
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 23,762
Likes (Received): 1980

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
Correct; the DLR platforms are aligned with King William Street and so point WNW, no great obstacle to a westwards extension towards Fleet Street.
OK, I was misinformed

Are there any accurate maps of the Underground online which show the exact positions of the tracks and tunnels? I know they sell atlases like that at the LT Museum in Covent Garden, but it's not exactly local to me...
__________________
This signature is socialist and un-American.
CharlieP no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2005, 09:40 PM   #216
DonQui
BANNED
 
DonQui's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Free City-State of New York
Posts: 6,035
Likes (Received): 10

The Tubemeister rocks.

DonQui no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2005, 10:08 PM   #217
nick_taylor
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth (term time); Bishop's Stortford (out of term time)
Posts: 1,818
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP
OK, I was misinformed

Are there any accurate maps of the Underground online which show the exact positions of the tracks and tunnels? I know they sell atlases like that at the LT Museum in Covent Garden, but it's not exactly local to me...
Other than the main geographical map, the London Bus maps are quite good:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/buses/pdfdocs/centlond.pdf

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/buses/pdfdocs/n_west.pdf

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/buses/pdfdocs/n_east.pdf

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/buses/pdfdocs/s_west.pdf

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/buses/pdfdocs/s_east.pdf
nick_taylor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2005, 10:19 PM   #218
DarJoLe
Registered User
 
DarJoLe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London
Posts: 19,918
Likes (Received): 6544

So I've had another shitty journey on the Tube, so here's some bitchy questions.

What is exactly a 'signal failure' and why do they seem to happen so much?

Trains are often held in stations 'to regulate the service'. Surely this just increases the gap in front of the held train, causing more passengers to overcrowd this train. Is this regulating the service just an excuse to 'smooth' over late trains?

London Underground has a worldwide reputation as probably being the worst subway in the world for delays. Do you think there's a worse one?

Do you think we'll ever see a reduction in fare prices instead of the constant increases we're given?
DarJoLe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2005, 10:24 PM   #219
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP
OK, I was misinformed

Are there any accurate maps of the Underground online which show the exact positions of the tracks and tunnels? I know they sell atlases like that at the LT Museum in Covent Garden, but it's not exactly local to me...
You can buy my atlas from Ian Allan Publishing in 2 months!
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2005, 10:52 PM   #220
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarJoLe
So I've had another shitty journey on the Tube, so here's some bitchy questions.

What is exactly a 'signal failure' and why do they seem to happen so much?

Trains are often held in stations 'to regulate the service'. Surely this just increases the gap in front of the held train, causing more passengers to overcrowd this train. Is this regulating the service just an excuse to 'smooth' over late trains?

London Underground has a worldwide reputation as probably being the worst subway in the world for delays. Do you think there's a worse one?

Do you think we'll ever see a reduction in fare prices instead of the constant increases we're given?
Ok, I'll have to (again) get a little deep to explain this one...

Very simply, London Underground lines are split into 'Track Circuits' which are electrical circuits running through the running rails (i.e. what the wheels run on). When the circuit is uninterrupted it is complete and displays a green signal to the rear of it. When a train enters a section its wheels short-circuit the track circuit and causes the signal to the rear to go red. Track circuits are separated from each other by short (half inch) sections of plastic in the running rails which give the distinct 'clackety clack' sound as the train wheels pass across them.

A Signal Failure is when anything other than a train causes a short circuit to the track circuit and turns the signal to the rear red. The causes can be manifold, but the commenest are metal objects bridging one of the plastic insulating sections, something contacting a running rail and a current rail (causing a huge voltage to cross to the track circuit and blow the fuses), flooding, a broken rail (usually just a hairline crack) etc etc.

This causes a delay because thanks to our safety systems (Tripcock - Trainstop) a train will come to a halt after passing a red signal, and will then be restricted to 5mph until it has passed the next 2 signals. This means each train encountering a signal failure has to stop, recive authority to pass the red signal, proceed, be stopped, then proceed at 5mph (walking pace) for several hundred metres. As you can appreciate, this is for safety reasons in case a train accidentally passes a red signal with a train ahead of it, but in thecase of a signal failure causes a huge delay. Even worse, if there are points immediately ahead of the failing signal, they need to be manually secured in position with a big lump of wood and G Clamp (Scotch & Clip), so a further delay is incurred whilst a memeber of staff walks down to the points and secures them.

I hope this explains why signal failures are so disruptive, it is essenitally because of our safety systems and the fact that everything fails safe.

Regulating....

Trains have a nasty habit of bunching up on busy lines... you only need a slight gap in front of a train and it becomes amplified at each station as it is calling at ever busier platforms, and therefore stops longer and longer. The longer the gap in front, the busier the platforms and therefore it becomes a vicious circle. Trains behind get closer and closer as the train in front loses more and more time, and so in the end, without intervention, you'll get a very busy train followed by 2 or 3 empty ones immediately behind (as you'd no doubt have noticed). Regulation is an intervention used to restore the regular gaps between trains and therefore even out the passenger loading.

Regarding your last two questions, I don't know any other system intimately enough to know if there's any worse (I suspect there are), and no I don't think we'll ever drop our fares!
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
london, railways, tube

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium