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Old December 19th, 2007, 07:30 PM   #2181
bigbossman
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cheers tubeman, got a couple more

-do you reckon the isle of dogs will ever be placed in zone 1, as an island. It seems that TFL must be losing shed loads of mentary potential by keeping it in zone 2?

-i think it's stupid that every station now has to be built with straight platforms, not on a slope etc. firstly there shouldn't be one rule for one station and one for another, if a curved platform isn't safe then bank station shouldnt be used, am i wrong?? also if it's impractical or prohibitively expensive to provide disable access, but there are positive benefits of providing the station (eg park royal interchange, where i here it wont be a proper interchange because of safety specs, it will be a 200m walk, which is stupid when the tracks cross), surely then it should be waved, am i wrong??

-following on from your comments on the 24 hour tube, i think weekend 24/7 tube would be beneficial, also i know it's nothing to do with the tube, but i hae no idea why tfl hasn't introudced constant running on some bus routes at the weekend eg friday-sunday, it's clear there would be benefits, as this is the time most likely that people would take a night bus??

thanks tubeman
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Old December 19th, 2007, 08:39 PM   #2182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
i hae no idea why tfl hasn't introudced constant running on some bus routes at the weekend eg friday-sunday, it's clear there would be benefits, as this is the time most likely that people would take a night bus??
In additon to the nght bus network several bus routes are 24 hours, for example http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/6559.aspx
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Old December 19th, 2007, 09:14 PM   #2183
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Well yes, it's the only day with no trains!
Was thinking in terms of staff contracts, but <slaps forehead>.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 09:38 PM   #2184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
cheers tubeman, got a couple more

-do you reckon the isle of dogs will ever be placed in zone 1, as an island. It seems that TFL must be losing shed loads of mentary potential by keeping it in zone 2?
I sort of see where you're coming from, but it would be a PR disaster 'Tube bosses move Zone boundaries to make money etc etc', as the boundaries are (I think) set by quite strict elliptical shapes centred on Charing Cross, so it's determined by distance. Also, it could be argued to be more lucrative having Canary Wharf outside Zone 1, as all passengers coming into central London termini have to cross a zone boundary to get to CW (therefore more expensive to get to than if it were in Zone 1).

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-i think it's stupid that every station now has to be built with straight platforms, not on a slope etc. firstly there shouldn't be one rule for one station and one for another, if a curved platform isn't safe then bank station shouldnt be used, am i wrong?? also if it's impractical or prohibitively expensive to provide disable access, but there are positive benefits of providing the station (eg park royal interchange, where i here it wont be a proper interchange because of safety specs, it will be a 200m walk, which is stupid when the tracks cross), surely then it should be waved, am i wrong??
If a new line were proposed today with platforms like Bank (Central) or Waterloo (Bakerloo) we'd be laughed out of town by the H&S lobby, but it's a funny beast in that it's perfectly acceptable to keep using Bank but out of the question to build a new platform even half as curved. It's all about risk: platforms like Bank and Waterloo will have a certain number of PTI (Platform-train incidents) per year, including periodical deaths and disablements, all largely attributable to the sharp curve / gap. This risk is acceptable as being 'ALARP' (as low as reasonably practicable) as the money involved in removing the risk has been weighed up against the risk to life. It sounds callous, but this is how risk assessment works. If we're talking about a brand new platform the H&S lobby can stipulate that it must be 'ALARP' by today's standards, which means straight platforms. There were no such standards 100 years ago when open-gated wooden trains with all equipment at 630V trundled along deep level tunnels and around sharply curved platforms: The Tube really was a death-trap by today's standards!

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-following on from your comments on the 24 hour tube, i think weekend 24/7 tube would be beneficial, also i know it's nothing to do with the tube, but i hae no idea why tfl hasn't introudced constant running on some bus routes at the weekend eg friday-sunday, it's clear there would be benefits, as this is the time most likely that people would take a night bus??

thanks tubeman
Quite a few bus routes are already 24 hour / 7 days a week: I think the only reason why more aren't is that often the current nightbus routes do not equate to any day bus routes, they amalgamate several day bus routes so couldn't run '24 hour' as such. e.g. the 38 terminates at Clapton but the N38 goes all the way to Chingford.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 09:49 PM   #2185
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A bakerloo/Victoria line question. again covered elsewhere more than likely

The bakerloo was originally meant to be extended in the 1930's. But as well all know for various reason this didn't go ahead as planned - and has hung around like Marleys Ghost and keeps haunting many a newbies head. Did any construction actually go ahead, if so how far did the get? And i don' suppose any of it is visible.

I know the Victoria Line was constructed much more recently, but I was wondering if during the planning stage was it meant to go further than it does? Or do you ever see it being extended other than a passenger station in Northumberland Park near its depot?

And one final thought Tubeman since you seem to be the authoratative source on all things underground. Do you see any new tubelines being allowed other than Crossrail 1 and 2? If so,Where?
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Old December 19th, 2007, 10:01 PM   #2186
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i think you have misunderstood my point. the 75 was withdrawn, because it wasnt busy on weeknights, only on weekend nights, therefore wouldn't it make sense to run all night friday and saturday. this would also make sense on a lot routes in the sburbs which wouldnt have a case during the week, but on weekends would get good patronage!

i hate the h & s, nimby etc people they make everything so difficult
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Old December 19th, 2007, 10:06 PM   #2187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemcbuller View Post
In additon to the nght bus network several bus routes are 24 hours, for example http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...ntre/6559.aspx
that wasn't my point, see my post, i was talking about night buses that operate on the weekends only, that connect areas unserved, they could be introduced in the ay hoppas were, lots of hoppa routes in my area started off infrequent and crap before some of the built into busy trunk routes
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Old December 19th, 2007, 11:20 PM   #2188
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Quote:
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If a new line were proposed today with platforms like Bank (Central) or Waterloo (Bakerloo) we'd be laughed out of town by the H&S lobby, but it's a funny beast in that it's perfectly acceptable to keep using Bank but out of the question to build a new platform even half as curved. It's all about risk: platforms like Bank and Waterloo will have a certain number of PTI (Platform-train incidents) per year, including periodical deaths and disablements, all largely attributable to the sharp curve / gap. This risk is acceptable as being 'ALARP' (as low as reasonably practicable) as the money involved in removing the risk has been weighed up against the risk to life. It sounds callous, but this is how risk assessment works. If we're talking about a brand new platform the H&S lobby can stipulate that it must be 'ALARP' by today's standards, which means straight platforms. There were no such standards 100 years ago when open-gated wooden trains with all equipment at 630V trundled along deep level tunnels and around sharply curved platforms: The Tube really was a death-trap by today's standards!
Do you think they will ever rebuild Bank on the Central line?
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Old December 19th, 2007, 11:21 PM   #2189
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Originally Posted by zfreeman View Post
A bakerloo/Victoria line question. again covered elsewhere more than likely

The bakerloo was originally meant to be extended in the 1930's. But as well all know for various reason this didn't go ahead as planned - and has hung around like Marleys Ghost and keeps haunting many a newbies head. Did any construction actually go ahead, if so how far did the get? And i don' suppose any of it is visible.
Yes, the current over-run tunnels beyond Elephant & Castle (used as a pair of sidings) are the extent of the Postwar extension to Camberwell. I got my hands on some interesting drawings the other day which plot the precise course of the Bakerloo Line below Elephant & Castle roundabout: the current over-run tunnels turn south and point toward Camberwell under the Walworth Road whereas the original 1906 over-run tunnels point east and run under the New Kent Road, so two pairs of tunnels diverge beyond Elephant & Castle platforms representing two different abortive extensions. When the newer Camberwell tunnels were constructed in the 1950's they obliterated the original New Kent Road tunnels, but I can only assume beyond the divergence there are a pair of intact 101 year old tunnels under the New Kent Road (they certainly appear on the diagram).

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I know the Victoria Line was constructed much more recently, but I was wondering if during the planning stage was it meant to go further than it does? Or do you ever see it being extended other than a passenger station in Northumberland Park near its depot?
Yes, while I think it was never intended to go any further north / east than Walthamstow, the Victoria Line was definitely intened to keep extending southwards in stages until it reached Croydon. I think it would have essentially followed the A23 so would have had stations at Streatham Hill, Streatham, Norbury and perhaps one near Thornton Heath Pond before serving West / East Croydon. It never happened, and as it is now just having the Brixton terminus is congested enough at the southern end.

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And one final thought Tubeman since you seem to be the authoratative source on all things underground. Do you see any new tubelines being allowed other than Crossrail 1 and 2? If so,Where?
In all honestly I doubt London will ever witness a new 'Tube' line again, at best a couple of short extensions e.g. Bakerloo beyond Elephant, Northern Line Charing Cross Branch beyond Kennington and perhaps a short Victoria Line extension (perhaps just a loop to Herne Hill or short stub to Streatham).

There are perhaps a couple of Crossrail alignments which could be investigated beyond 1 and 2 (e.g. Euston to Victoria for argument's sake), but I doubt any Tube lines will ever be built from scratch again.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 11:28 PM   #2190
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i think you have misunderstood my point. the 75 was withdrawn, because it wasnt busy on weeknights, only on weekend nights, therefore wouldn't it make sense to run all night friday and saturday. this would also make sense on a lot routes in the sburbs which wouldnt have a case during the week, but on weekends would get good patronage!

i hate the h & s, nimby etc people they make everything so difficult
Ah I see what you mean, yes I think you have a point that many bus routes wouldn't justify 24 hour running permanently but could justify it weekends. Almost all Nightbus routes radiate out from Central London, but a lot of inter-suburban routes could probably easily justify 24 hour running weekends too. It's such an arse getting across London by nightbus, as all journies involve a trip into Central London to change and then come back out again. I've always though London should have two orbital nightbus routes to augment all the radial ones: one around the edge of the CC zone and one around the North / South circulars, an inner and outer circle if you will.

The H&S regulations I have no objection to: you can never comfortably put a price on a life, and that's what the 'ALARP' / Risk assessment approach does in weighing up cost versus potenial loss of life / injury.
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Old December 19th, 2007, 11:39 PM   #2191
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Do you think they will ever rebuild Bank on the Central line?

To iron out that infamous curve the line would need to be diverted for a significant distance at astronomic cost: as I say this is ruled out in favour of x amount of customer injuries per year and x amount of fatalities per century. There is a cost on life, but this is not earth-shattering really... This sort of reasoning happens everywhere.

Lots of things in life are potentially hazardous and have their threat mitigated, e.g. health warnings on cigarette packets and controls on firework sales. We could easily eliminate smoking and firework-related deaths tomorrow by banning them both but this is not deemed 'practicable' and so the risks are made 'As low as reasonably practicable' (ALARP) by various controls / health warnings / education / restrictions etc.

We do the same for sharply curved platforms like Bank by having 'Mind the gap' announcements, lighting below the platform edge, a platform with hatched lines painted below the lip of the main platform, a yellow strip inside the train doors, CCTV monitoring equipment for the driver... all these things have been introduced over time to make the risk 'ALARP'.
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Old December 20th, 2007, 12:22 AM   #2192
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Tubeman merry christmas and a couple of questions

are they going to expand the electrification to shefflied on the Midland Mainline Railway?????? and when do you think??

do you like the London Overground do you think its a good thing?
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Old December 20th, 2007, 12:39 AM   #2193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-i think it's stupid that every station now has to be built with straight platforms, not on a slope etc. firstly there shouldn't be one rule for one station and one for another, if a curved platform isn't safe then bank station shouldnt be used, am i wrong?? also if it's impractical or prohibitively expensive to provide disable access, but there are positive benefits of providing the station (eg park royal interchange, where i here it wont be a proper interchange because of safety specs, it will be a 200m walk, which is stupid when the tracks cross), surely then it should be waved, am i wrong??
It's a good point but I can also see their logic. Essentially, they have found the disadvantages of having curved stations and have simply made a decision to keep them straight in the future. It's not that curved stations are too dangerous to use, but now that we know straight ones are safer, we may as well build them that way to begin with.
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Old December 20th, 2007, 12:42 AM   #2194
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@Tubeman. I have a question, you do seem to have an encyclopedia knowledge on the tube and many other rail facilities in London. Does all this reside in your head, or when you get one of these many varied questions, you sit on a plush sofa in front of the fire with a pipe and scour old blueprints or dusty leather bound books ;O)

Anyway, thanks for your answers, and have a Merry Xmas.
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Old December 20th, 2007, 01:06 AM   #2195
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@Tubeman. I have a question, you do seem to have an encyclopedia knowledge on the tube and many other rail facilities in London. Does all this reside in your head, or when you get one of these many varied questions, you sit on a plush sofa in front of the fire with a pipe and scour old blueprints or dusty leather bound books ;O)

Anyway, thanks for your answers, and have a Merry Xmas.
Scarily enough it's in my head. I should get out more
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Old December 20th, 2007, 01:26 AM   #2196
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In all honestly I doubt London will ever witness a new 'Tube' line again, at best a couple of short extensions e.g. Bakerloo beyond Elephant, Northern Line Charing Cross Branch beyond Kennington and perhaps a short Victoria Line extension (perhaps just a loop to Herne Hill or short stub to Streatham).
What alignment would a 'tube' line take anyway? After Chelney it seems there will be nowhere to put a completely new line through central London.

We might still see an LU line still, definately not 'tube' sized but with tunnels wide enough to accomodate S Stock for example, Line 14 of the Paris Metro was built despite having the RER so it's still possible me thinks.
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Old December 20th, 2007, 02:49 AM   #2197
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Thanks for that tubeman.

My questions just keep coming sorry!

Now some about the Waterloo and City Line.

I know its known as the drain for obvious reasons but is more at risk of flooding than say Wapping, Rotherhithe or for that matter I heard recently Canada Water is constantly pumped out.

When travelling in the direction of Bank we pass an area as we are passing out of the platform into an underground area before going into tunnel do you know what this area is?

Also, when they were refurbishing the line earlier in the year. I know they removed the trains by way of one of the national rail platforms how did they do this is theresome sort of ramp between the lower levels of the W&C line and the NR Lines above, if so, in theory could trains from say Southampton run into Bank if the line had more than a single platform at each end??

I know this line was in the hands of BR until fairly recently.

Oh one final question (for today anyway) what happens with stock that is no longer useful??
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Old December 20th, 2007, 03:11 AM   #2198
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Also, when they were refurbishing the line earlier in the year. I know they removed the trains by way of one of the national rail platforms
They were craned in and out from the underground depot: http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/2288
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Old December 20th, 2007, 03:26 AM   #2199
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What is the current and proposed dvelopments for the Tube?
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Old December 20th, 2007, 02:04 PM   #2200
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-Each line is getting 'modernised' with new rolling stock, new track, new signalling etc.
The Central and W&C lines are mostly complete, the Victoria line is getting new trains at the start of 2009, and will be 'complete' by 2012... the Jubilee line is getting new signalling in 2009 and the Northern in 2011 the Piccadilly is to get new trains in 2014 (?) I believe and the Sub-Surface lines are getting a new single type of rolling stock, with differing train legnths for the Metropolitan (8 cars instead of 7) the first is being delivered to the Metropolitan in 2010!

-The East London line is being extended northwards to Dalston on the North London line, it will then no longer be part of the Underground but instead a mostly overground orbital network called the London Overground, the North London line is going to get new trains and the stations are going to be refurbished, all this will be done by TfL (Transport for London, a public company)

-The Piccadilly line is being extended one station to serve Heathrow T5

-The Hammersmith & City line is getting a new station between Shepherd's Bush and Latimer Road called Wood Lane

-A new ticket hall with new escalators to the Northern, Piccadilly and Victoria lines is being constructed at King's Cross, to be completed in 2009

-A new ticket hall at Victoria will be constructed for completion in 2013

-Stratford station will be extensively reconstructed for the Olympics

New Victoria line trains

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


More pics here.

New Sub-Surface trains

image hosted on flickr


More pics here.

New London Overground trains





Thats all thats happenning on the Tube off the top of my head... Crossrail and the DLR are a different story altogether!

Sorry for stealing your question Tubeman... But this one was too easy to resist...
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