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Old December 21st, 2007, 12:19 AM   #2201
Kentigern
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Tubeman,

Could you give me a list of all tube stations which have upgrades planned to make them wheelchair accessible?

And is there any overall timetable or even hopeful date when every single tube station will be wheelchair accessible?

Thanks!
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Old December 22nd, 2007, 08:11 PM   #2202
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just so I don't seem rude, I'm actually in Cornwall writing this on an iPhone so I haven't got time for full answers... Normal service resumed in a couple of days
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Old December 23rd, 2007, 05:16 PM   #2203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zfreeman View Post
Thanks for that tubeman.

My questions just keep coming sorry!

Now some about the Waterloo and City Line.

I know its known as the drain for obvious reasons but is more at risk of flooding than say Wapping, Rotherhithe or for that matter I heard recently Canada Water is constantly pumped out.

When travelling in the direction of Bank we pass an area as we are passing out of the platform into an underground area before going into tunnel do you know what this area is?

Also, when they were refurbishing the line earlier in the year. I know they removed the trains by way of one of the national rail platforms how did they do this is theresome sort of ramp between the lower levels of the W&C line and the NR Lines above, if so, in theory could trains from say Southampton run into Bank if the line had more than a single platform at each end??

I know this line was in the hands of BR until fairly recently.

Oh one final question (for today anyway) what happens with stock that is no longer useful??
In Tubeman's well deserved absence, I should be able to answer some of this one. I was a British Rail engineer involved with the refurbishment of the Waterloo and City in the early 90s, when the new rolling stock was introduced.

I think the W&C has always been the poor relation of the tube network in that it was built by a main line rail company (the London and South Western) and did not (initially at least) have any lifts or escalators to access the platforms. (It was only in the 1960s that the travelators were installed at Bank - prior to that passengers had a long walk up a stepped ramp to ground level). Also, the connections to the other tube lines are pretty poor and involve a lot of climbing and walking.

I'm not sure that the nickname, 'The Drain' is that obvious. There are three possible explanations for it. One is the initials of the line (WC), another the fact that the line appeared on old tube maps rather like a drain at the bottom of the system. However, the most likely reason is the smell of the underground, particularly at Waterloo. This emanates from the water that leaks into the tunnels at the Waterloo end.

When I was working there, we called out railway scientific services to analyse the water leaking into the tunnels. They came to the conclusion that there was nothing particularly harmful in the water but that it just had a 'dirty water smell'.

Despite the line running under the Thames, it is at the Waterloo end, which is constructed in marshland, that has the main water ingress problem. The main tunnels are lined with cast iron segments and water leakage is minimal (although over the years, some thin stalactites have developed from the tunnel ceiling).

At the Waterloo end, the tunnels are lined with brick. That is because the original lining was destroyed by bombing in the Second World War and was rapidly reconstructed. There is also a short stub branch tunnel that used to lead to a lift alongside Waterloo main line station used for lifting rail vehicles in and out of the tunnels.

This lift (known as the Armstrong lift) was removed to allow the Waterloo International Station to be constructed in the early 90s. To replace it, a 'hole in the roof' was constructed at the south end of Waterloo station which allows trains to be craned in and out of the system. As most maintenance is carried out in the Waterloo Depot, the 'hole in the roof' is only used when major refurbishment of the trains is required, accident damage needs to be repaired or new trains are to be introduced and old ones removed.

The underground area at the south end of Bank station is a scissor crossover,which allows trains arriving on the east side platform to cross over to the west side for the journey under the Thames. At the Waterloo end, the same operation is carried out in the open air between the station and the depot.

When we were working on the W&C, the rolling stock in use was the pre-war Bulleid Southern Railway stock and some of the oldest in use anywhere on the British Rail network. I remember it mainly for its extremely poor ride quality. The vehicles use to rock from side to side to an alarming extent and I was often amazed they didn't hit the tunnel walls.

Having said that, the new tube type stock that was introduced didn't seem to be much better in terms of ride quality and I think a lot of it must have been down to the track, which over much of its length was laid on longitudinal timbers, rather than transverse sleepers set in ballast. That arrangement is very difficult to maintain. Sections of it were replaced with transverse sleepers as part of our work and recent refurbishment may have replaced the lot.
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Old December 26th, 2007, 12:47 AM   #2204
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tubeman a few questions to ponder on your return

-do you think that the fact the jubilee line went over budget stopped other tube lines and extensions happening in london??
-do you think they'll ever try and rationalise services on the national rail network, coz especially in south london its a stupid confusing maze.
-do you think we'll ever get double decker trains, in britain??
-The victoria line is at capacity and cannot be extended. however do you not think the reason that brixton is so busy is because people from surrounding areas like streatham, therefore if it was extended beyond brixton it would have the same passengers and you would see brixton station being less busy, what do yo thnk??
-private enterprise built the tube we have today, whats stopping private enterprise from doing so again, surely a private company could suggest a line or extension or something, it could be paid for like ppp, in the future, or in installments, surely that would solve fundage issues??

cheers tubeman and merry christmas
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Old December 26th, 2007, 05:26 AM   #2205
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I would like to add a question to Bigbossman's comment about the national rail network being a confusing maze. If you look at old tube maps (before the time of the Beck map), the lines seem to be just a pile of spaghetti. We have Beck to thank for giving us the impression that the tube is a logical network.

My question is - has an up to date map been produced showing the tube network in a geographically accurate form?
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Old December 26th, 2007, 04:47 PM   #2206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
tubeman a few questions to ponder on your return

-do you think that the fact the jubilee line went over budget stopped other tube lines and extensions happening in london??
It certainly didn't help, but the JLE was a peculiar beast in that it was being built to a strict deadline (31.12.99) which gave carte blanche to the workers to take the piss and stall for better money. The industrial relations were terrible throughout with various sets of workers on strike at various times. This pushed the project badly over budget... fortunately with any future project there would less likely be the same issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-do you think they'll ever try and rationalise services on the national rail network, coz especially in south london its a stupid confusing maze.
I don't know really... It surprises me that the hugely complex pattern of overlapping services has existed for so long (they hark back to the original 'Railway mania' competition between companies like the LSWR, SER, LCDR, LBSCR in South London), it probably would benefit from some degree of rationalisation but that would result in some stations losing direct services to certain termini and other suburbs, which wouldn't go down well.

It's amazing really how little has gone in terms of South London railway infrastructure: the only significant closures were the LCDR branches to Greenwich and Crystal Palace and the southern half of the Tooting-Wimbledon loop through Merton Abbey. The other closures were to facilitate the Croydon Tramlink (Wimbledon - Croydon and Elmers End - Addiscombe), with the abandoned Woodside to Selsdon line being significantly 'recycled' by Tramlink. Aside from a few Central London stations like Borough Road, Walworth Road and Camberwell it's basically all intact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-do you think we'll ever get double decker trains, in britain??
We already have had them!:

[IMG]http://i12.************/6ob7ioo.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i10.************/7xj55so.gif[/IMG]

...The 4-DD Southern EMU prototype which lasted from 1949 to 1971. It was restricted to certain routes, was unpopular with the passengers, and took longer to load and unload so never caught on.

The trouble with double decker trains is they don't really suit suburban services with frequent stops and heavy loading because they generally only have one set of doors at each end of the cars so their dwell times are longer than single deck trains with numerous doors.

I assume 'High speed 1' between St pancras and the Eurotunnel has been engineered to accommodate continental loading gauges (and therefore TGV Duplex trains), so perhaps any future expansion of the HSR network would too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-The victoria line is at capacity and cannot be extended. however do you not think the reason that brixton is so busy is because people from surrounding areas like streatham, therefore if it was extended beyond brixton it would have the same passengers and you would see brixton station being less busy, what do yo thnk??
That is a possibility, certainly if the Victoria Line were extended south of Brixton a lot of the passengers using the new stations already use the Victoria Line anyway (e.g. bus to Brixton from Streatham).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-private enterprise built the tube we have today, whats stopping private enterprise from doing so again, surely a private company could suggest a line or extension or something, it could be paid for like ppp, in the future, or in installments, surely that would solve fundage issues??

cheers tubeman and merry christmas
The main issue is labour I think: it was cheap 100 years ago but today it certainly isn't. All major transport improvements around the world seem to be financed with more than a little help from central government, I doubt with tight profit margins any private enterprise would be able to build a Tube line from scratch profitably.
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Old December 26th, 2007, 05:34 PM   #2207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
I would like to add a question to Bigbossman's comment about the national rail network being a confusing maze. If you look at old tube maps (before the time of the Beck map), the lines seem to be just a pile of spaghetti. We have Beck to thank for giving us the impression that the tube is a logical network.

My question is - has an up to date map been produced showing the tube network in a geographically accurate form?
I presume you mean for passenger consumption?

In a word, no. There are plenty of maps out there mapping the Tube geographically correctly (including mine!), but there has been no geographically correct official Beck companion map available to my knowledge.
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Old December 26th, 2007, 06:26 PM   #2208
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Tubeman, do you think that Mill Hill East and Chesham are basically being readied for closure? Both are being run mainly via shuttle services, and they are strange little stubs on the map - it seems that they may be being run down deliberately.
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Old December 26th, 2007, 06:51 PM   #2209
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No they won't be shut as would be politically untenable for LUL/TfL to shut them.
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Old December 26th, 2007, 07:08 PM   #2210
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No they won't be shut as would be politically untenable for LUL/TfL to shut them.
surely chesham can be shut, seen as it's not in greater london if they shut it the buckinghamshire people have no one to hold accountable
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Old December 26th, 2007, 07:39 PM   #2211
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Tubeman, do you think that Mill Hill East and Chesham are basically being readied for closure? Both are being run mainly via shuttle services, and they are strange little stubs on the map - it seems that they may be being run down deliberately.
The move to a shuttle for Mill Hill East was actually to make the service more attractive to customers, as with the Northern Line's unreliability the service was very hit and miss most of the time. At least having a single train rattling up and down the route means that service at least can run like clockwork (even if the rest of the Northern Line doesn't!).

Chesham has always had the service pattern of a couple of through trains to / from London each peak and a shuttle off-peak. Chesham is a pretty sizeable town and I suspect the station is amongst the better-used suburban stations on LU.

Both these branches are examples of Single-line working (the only two of any significance on LU), which essentially means only one train can be on the branch at any one time. This firstly reduces the maximum frequency (4tph tops) and moreover secondly 'through' trains off the main line have to be evenly spaced to avoid delays. For example, if Mill Hill East was served by through trains all day (as it used to be) and a train is (for example) delayed for 10 minutes en route from Morden but the following Mill Hill train is on time (perfectly possible due to the separate Charing Cross / Bank branches) then you have 2 Mill Hill east trains only 5 minutes apart. The second train will then have to wait at Finchley Central for the train in front to reach Mill Hill east, change ends, and return: possibly up to 10 minutes.

With all of the Northern line's operating problems this situation was common, as was long headways in the Mill Hill east service. Instead of having frequent delays at Finchley Central waiting to join the branch (because of a train already being on the branch) combined with wildly varying headways between trains, now with the shuttle customers have a much more reliable service off-set against the inconvenience of having to change at Finchley Central.
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Old December 27th, 2007, 12:49 AM   #2212
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can you remind us of the name of your book? it's a new version right? I had intended to buy the first, but never got round to doing so.
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Old December 29th, 2007, 10:02 PM   #2213
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I'm still baffled as to why LU can't have higher frequencies, it would help if there wasn't this silly law about having to tip out every single carriage at reversing-in-sidings stations, such as Queen's Park. Look how quickly the trains in Moscow and Paris reverse (they both have frequencies above 30tph)

This was taken from the Paris Metro thread



And Moscow



Both of these examples are not with driverless trains
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Old December 29th, 2007, 10:35 PM   #2214
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I'm still baffled as to why LU can't have higher frequencies, it would help if there wasn't this silly law about having to tip out every single carriage at reversing-in-sidings stations, such as Queen's Park. Look how quickly the trains in Moscow and Paris reverse (they both have frequencies above 30tph)

This was taken from the Paris Metro thread

Both of these examples are not with driverless trains
That's an interesting example of 'stepping back'... we do similar at Elephant & Castle. Basically every driver 'steps back' onto the train behind with the interval between trains giving them time to change ends and be in position in the reversing sidings.

In short, you bring a train into the sidings and get off, and start walking toward the other end. As soon as you're clear of the back cab the driver who brought in the previous train gets on the front and drives off the train you just brought in, allowing really quick turnaround times. The alternative is each train dwells in the sidings while a driver fannies about, walks the length of the train, has a pee, makes a cup of tea etc. On the Bakerloo Line at least you generally step back onto two trains behind the one you brought in to ensure a reasonable interval.

It's only really an issue at locations with a pair of reversing sidings or just a pair of terminal platforms: it's preferable to have three or four and timetable a longer dwell time to allow timetable recovery... Stepping back is very effieicnt when it works, but once late running is introduced it becomes a confusing mess to manage.
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Old December 29th, 2007, 11:22 PM   #2215
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Interesting, thank you. Is the horn on the Moscow video to signify that the cab at the opposite end has been 'switched off'?

Is the limiting factor on increasing the Bakerloo line's frequency (apart from the fact that it's not busy enough to warrant it!) the tipping out rules at Queen's Park. Why do we have these rules...? Or is it that LU are too scared of shoving trains down there because of the amount that would get stuck in the tunnels if the service were to be messed up?
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Old December 30th, 2007, 02:52 AM   #2216
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Interesting, thank you. Is the horn on the Moscow video to signify that the cab at the opposite end has been 'switched off'?

Is the limiting factor on increasing the Bakerloo line's frequency (apart from the fact that it's not busy enough to warrant it!) the tipping out rules at Queen's Park. Why do we have these rules...? Or is it that LU are too scared of shoving trains down there because of the amount that would get stuck in the tunnels if the service were to be messed up?
It's all because of a fatality at Liverpool Street about 8 years ago: Until then we'd just make 3 x "This train terminates here, all change" announcements, shut the doors, and go into reversing sidings without physically checking each car to ensure it was empty (i.e. about as long as standard dwell time in a platform).

In this incident a chap was overcarried into Liverpool Street sidings to reverse (Central Line) and paniced, as he was walking between cars in said panic he somehow managed to fall out between the cars and die. It is purely because of this incident that we now have to physically check each car to ensure its empty before a train reverses via sidings (obviously it always was a necessity if a train was being withdrawn)... It's all to do with the Risk Assessment principles I was waffling about a few pages back.

It was deemed that the delays / disruption of having to fully detrain each reversing train at locations like Queen's Park, Liverpool Street, Parson's Green etc was worth enduring to prevent x risk of future deaths following overcarry. Insane overreaction if you ask me, but this is how the whole H&S regulations operate.

The incident was, in my opinion, nothing to do with an overcarry: it was because a numpty decided to walk between the cars in contravention of the stickers stuck on every communicating door (do not use while moving / only use in emergency). He could have just as easily died doing the same in passenger service on any section of line anywhere... We can't seal up the doors because they are an emergency escape route through trains... but surely they were the bigger risk than the fact the guy was overcarried?

Overcarries still happen all the time when drivers don't check the cars thoroughly enough when detraining: if somone's slumped asleep across seats they could be easily missed when the driver sticks their head in the car before pushing the 'Porter Button' (the button on the end of each car which closes just that car's doors)... I guess it's a real problem with A Stocks as the seat backs are so high (almost like old-fashioned compartments).

Re: the horn in the Moscow vid, yes it may well be some form of 'Rear Cab Clear' indication: at Elephant & Castle there's a plunger by the rear cab (i.e. at the south end) which a driver hits as soon as they get off the train. This illuminates a 'Rear cab clear' sign at the other (i.e. front / north) to tell the driver stepping back onto the train that they're not about to drive off with the previous driver still in the rear cab (which would be a mini-disaster operationally).
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Old December 30th, 2007, 07:20 AM   #2217
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Interesting... Seems very reactionary to me. Why can't there just be a warning saying something along the lines of "this train will re-enter service, stay where you are!" They seem to think warnings will protect us from everything else, please stand behind the yellow lines, please don't throw yourself into a train, for your safety... grrr...

Why do they use that phrase "This is for your safety" it sounds so condescending it's unbelievable, it's how one would speak to a child for god sakes.

I'm going off on a completely irrelevant rant, sorry.
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Old December 30th, 2007, 10:08 PM   #2218
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That's a good point iampuking. Surely that would be enough of a safety warning to avoid this walking through the train.

Another solution is future trains to allow passengers to walk between carriages. All trains everywhere else allow this, why are London Underground trains the exception here?
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Old December 30th, 2007, 10:37 PM   #2219
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The S Stock to replace all sub-surface line trains will be completely walk-through... See Page 52, I just banged on about it!
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Old December 31st, 2007, 12:34 AM   #2220
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tubeman a few more questions for ya

-with them renaming the two shepherd's bushes and edgware roads, will they ever rename hammersmith (n the h&c line), hammersmith grove or something coz they are clearly not the same station and hardly that close

-following on from that, what is the exact purpose of designating interchange stations, because there are stations not close which are, and stations closer which aren't. if i am going to change from hackney central to hackney downs i will do so i dont need a circle on a map to tell me it can be done, is it for ticketing purpose if so, shouldnt there be some sort of guidline as to what the distance between stations has to be for it to be an interchange??

-do you think that national rail should adopt a standrad livery which all tocs should adopt and stations should have one type of branding, so that when trains change operators there isnt millions spent on rebranding a fleet of trains and stations, which could be better invested elsewhere, i dont see any reason why private companies need a coporate identy imblazened all over there trains, i think the national rail logo and the name of the region, like national rail south east, national rail west coast, national rail east, would be better with different colour liveries for each franchise

- following on from my last point, i know its not your area, but why hasnt ken livingstone pushed for a london bus livery, with private companies having no branding of thereown whats so ever, just a red bus with the TfL roundel, it would help to create the illusion of a more unified transport system, and private companies can be advertised with a small sticker similar to the current london buses sticker on buses now?? what do you think??

-tubeman can you tell me why all british train except LU have to have yellow fronts, nowehre else in the world has to, whats the purpose and why? surely if it isn't neccessary elsewhere or on the underground it isnt actually necessary and ruins the astetics of the train

-finally do you think dlr should fit barriers at all the major stations aka lewisham, greenwich, woolwich arsenal (when it opens), london city airport, and all between poplar and south quay, as they are clearly busy enough to warrant it, and discourage fair dodging as they are the likely destinations of most people? i have got on the dlr at lewisham to deptford bridge and never been checked it is so easy to fair dodge for small hop journeys!!

cheers tubeman
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