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Old December 31st, 2007, 01:40 AM   #2221
iampuking
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
tubeman a few more questions for ya

-with them renaming the two shepherd's bushes and edgware roads, will they ever rename hammersmith (n the h&c line), hammersmith grove or something coz they are clearly not the same station and hardly that close
For the latest maps, interchanges such as West Hampstead (Jubilee line to London Overground) and Canary Wharf (Jubilee line to DLR) are shown with a grey line to signify that they are interchanges outside the ticket barriers, strangely, they've ignored Edgware Road, Speherd's Bush, Euston Square-Warren Street-Euston, Great Portland Street-Regent's Park etc.

And by the way, Shepherd's Bush is actually being renamed to 'Shepherd's Bush Green' on the H&C line after Wood Lane opens in 2008 (?)
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Old December 31st, 2007, 02:06 AM   #2222
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
For the latest maps, interchanges such as West Hampstead (Jubilee line to London Overground) and Canary Wharf (Jubilee line to DLR) are shown with a grey line to signify that they are interchanges outside the ticket barriers, strangely, they've ignored Edgware Road, Speherd's Bush, Euston Square-Warren Street-Euston, Great Portland Street-Regent's Park etc.

And by the way, Shepherd's Bush is actually being renamed to 'Shepherd's Bush Green' on the H&C line after Wood Lane opens in 2008 (?)

shepherd's bush market not green iampuking!!
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Old December 31st, 2007, 02:30 AM   #2223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
tubeman a few more questions for ya

-with them renaming the two shepherd's bushes and edgware roads, will they ever rename hammersmith (n the h&c line), hammersmith grove or something coz they are clearly not the same station and hardly that close
Hammersmith H&C is a valid interchange (i.e. there are no alternatives) so should stay 'Hammersmith' while the Edgware Roads and Shepherd's Bushes are not so could benefit from renaming to prevent confusion (Shepherd's Bush H&C already is, as you know). Maybe the SSR Edgware Road could be renamed Chapel Street, which is the road the main entrance is on... The station isn't even on Edgware Road!

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-following on from that, what is the exact purpose of designating interchange stations, because there are stations not close which are, and stations closer which aren't. if i am going to change from hackney central to hackney downs i will do so i dont need a circle on a map to tell me it can be done, is it for ticketing purpose if so, shouldnt there be some sort of guidline as to what the distance between stations has to be for it to be an interchange??
Practicality... No-one would need to change at Edgware Road between the Bakerloo and SSR lines because they can do so more conveniently at Baker Street or Paddington. If Edgware Road was the only point where these lines crossed however no doubt it would appear as an interchange on maps.

British Rail was never that fussed about denoting interchanges or adjacent stations, so Hackney Downs / Central and other close stations like catford / Catford Bridge never used to be shown as interchanges despite being next to each other. I think this is rectified on more recent London Connections maps.

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-do you think that national rail should adopt a standrad livery which all tocs should adopt and stations should have one type of branding, so that when trains change operators there isnt millions spent on rebranding a fleet of trains and stations, which could be better invested elsewhere, i dont see any reason why private companies need a coporate identy imblazened all over there trains, i think the national rail logo and the name of the region, like national rail south east, national rail west coast, national rail east, would be better with different colour liveries for each franchise
I don't really care so long as the trains run... The BR 70's and 80's standard livery of blue then later blue & grey were boring and austere, the Network Southeast branding was ok (still clinging on on a few Networkers) but I quite like the variety of different liveries now... some are very pleasant (e.g. the old GNER livery, Southern) and others not so, but it adds a bit of colour.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
- following on from my last point, i know its not your area, but why hasnt ken livingstone pushed for a london bus livery, with private companies having no branding of thereown whats so ever, just a red bus with the TfL roundel, it would help to create the illusion of a more unified transport system, and private companies can be advertised with a small sticker similar to the current london buses sticker on buses now?? what do you think??
There must be some sort of stipulation about buses being X% red and logos no larger than a certain size, as all buses are mostly red with fairly small logos. I remember maybe 10 years ago there were a few bus companies operating in London who ran non-red buses with silly big logos (e.g. Kentish Bus and Stagecoach).




I remember these ugly ****ers on quite a few routes (yes I know its a toy!)

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-tubeman can you tell me why all british train except LU have to have yellow fronts, nowehre else in the world has to, whats the purpose and why? surely if it isn't neccessary elsewhere or on the underground it isnt actually necessary and ruins the astetics of the train
To make trains more visible to trackside workers (and I guess other trains). Pretty silly reason if you ask me... I doubt it's ever saved any lives!

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
- finally do you think dlr should fit barriers at all the major stations aka lewisham, greenwich, woolwich arsenal (when it opens), london city airport, and all between poplar and south quay, as they are clearly busy enough to warrant it, and discourage fair dodging as they are the likely destinations of most people? i have got on the dlr at lewisham to deptford bridge and never been checked it is so easy to fair dodge for small hop journeys!!

cheers tubeman
In a word, yes. They haven't done so because the stations are unstaffed and the expectation is the Train captain checks everyone's tickets en route (but in reality this doesn't always happen).
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Old December 31st, 2007, 02:51 AM   #2224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-tubeman can you tell me why all british train except LU have to have yellow fronts, nowehre else in the world has to, whats the purpose and why? surely if it isn't neccessary elsewhere or on the underground it isnt actually necessary and ruins the astetics of the train
The yellow front end originated in the 60s as a rectangular panel and, as Tubeman states, is there to warn track workers of an approaching train - deemed necessary in the days following the withdrawal of steam trains when the steam would signal an approaching train.

As someone who has worked on the track, I can tell you that the headlight on the front of a train is a far better warning but the thinking is that a train whose headlight has failed is unsafe and so cannot be run in service. Better therefore to paint the front end than to cancel trains through the failure of one light.

Painting the whole of the train front yellow followed on in the late sixties and looked really bad on the locomotives of that period. (Fortunately, steam locomotives have never needed this treatment for the reason given). More recent designs, starting with the diesel HST, have managed to incorporate the yellow into the general livery and generally look OK.

I suspect that the requirement has never been passed onto underground trains as they operate in conditions where workers are unlikely to be on the track and, in any case, the yellow ends would not be effective in dark tunnels.

Why do British railways have to do this and no other in the world? Probably because the rest of the world does not have our Railway Inspectorate who are very keen on maintaining high safety standards.

To be fair, the number of track workers killed on railways was a major concern but never got the publicity of train crashes. Fortunately, due to more stringent control of work on track and other measures such as the wearing of high visibility clothing and the construction of safe lineside walking routes, this figure has been drastically reduced. How much the painting of train ends has contributed to this is impossible to evaluate but it has probably played a small part. So, if lives are saved as a result, having to have yellow ended trains is a small price to pay.
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Old December 31st, 2007, 03:47 AM   #2225
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
shepherd's bush market not green iampuking!!
Silly me!

I think Edgware Road and Paddington should have the grey lines connecting them, even if Edgware Road isn't a useful interchange... It'll reduce clutter on the map, something desperately needed.
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Old December 31st, 2007, 02:19 PM   #2226
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Silly me!

I think Edgware Road and Paddington should have the grey lines connecting them, even if Edgware Road isn't a useful interchange... It'll reduce clutter on the map, something desperately needed.
You want to reduce 'clutter' by adding more stuff to the map? Beck would be turning in his grave!

It's pointless, we want to discourage people from trying to change between the H&C and Circle / District at Paddington (in favour of Edgware Road) or between the Bakerloo and SSR lines at Edgware Road (in favour of Baker Street or Paddington) because they're crap interchanges. Showing them as any form of interchange would dupe inexperienced users into long treks through Paddington mainline or along Edgware Road unnecessarily.
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Old December 31st, 2007, 02:26 PM   #2227
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Originally Posted by Martin S View Post
The yellow front end originated in the 60s as a rectangular panel and, as Tubeman states, is there to warn track workers of an approaching train - deemed necessary in the days following the withdrawal of steam trains when the steam would signal an approaching train.

As someone who has worked on the track, I can tell you that the headlight on the front of a train is a far better warning but the thinking is that a train whose headlight has failed is unsafe and so cannot be run in service. Better therefore to paint the front end than to cancel trains through the failure of one light.

Painting the whole of the train front yellow followed on in the late sixties and looked really bad on the locomotives of that period. (Fortunately, steam locomotives have never needed this treatment for the reason given). More recent designs, starting with the diesel HST, have managed to incorporate the yellow into the general livery and generally look OK.

I suspect that the requirement has never been passed onto underground trains as they operate in conditions where workers are unlikely to be on the track and, in any case, the yellow ends would not be effective in dark tunnels.

Why do British railways have to do this and no other in the world? Probably because the rest of the world does not have our Railway Inspectorate who are very keen on maintaining high safety standards.

To be fair, the number of track workers killed on railways was a major concern but never got the publicity of train crashes. Fortunately, due to more stringent control of work on track and other measures such as the wearing of high visibility clothing and the construction of safe lineside walking routes, this figure has been drastically reduced. How much the painting of train ends has contributed to this is impossible to evaluate but it has probably played a small part. So, if lives are saved as a result, having to have yellow ended trains is a small price to pay.
All Underground trains have a certain proportion of red on the cab ends for the same reason (some cab ends are entirely red), although I'm not clear whether this is a requirement or just a 'nice to have' from the corporate livery. Certainly as late as 2000 1959 Stocks were running on the Northern Line with no red on the cab ends, and most stocks prior to 1990's refurbishment had no red on the cab ends (e.g. C, A, 72) while the District D and Piccadilly 73 stocks always had a red lower cab end even when the rest of the train was unpainted aluminium.

I'm guessing it began with the 73 and D Stocks because the 4-track stretch between Baron's Court and Acton Town was notorious for track staff deaths due to the lack of refuges / places of safety and the high speed of the Piccadilly Line trains, so both these stocks were made more 'visible'.

It certainly does work: on a cold grey winter's day an unpainted aluminium train can easily fade into the background, the red cab end does make it far more visible.
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Old December 31st, 2007, 03:25 PM   #2228
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On the yellow train front front, the commuter trains in Kuala Lumpur have them on all 3 types of trains used. Whether this is related to the corporate livery of yellow and blue I have no idea, but in this case, the yellow train front is not restricted to Britain.



^ The class 81 EMU



^ The class 82 EMU



^ The class 83 EMU
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Old December 31st, 2007, 03:50 PM   #2229
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If you are interested in the LU map and how/why it deals with interchanges etc I thoroughly recommend this book.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Underground-.../dp/1854142860
I got it for Christmas and have read it cover to cover already,
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Old December 31st, 2007, 08:00 PM   #2230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
All Underground trains have a certain proportion of red on the cab ends for the same reason (some cab ends are entirely red), although I'm not clear whether this is a requirement or just a 'nice to have' from the corporate livery. Certainly as late as 2000 1959 Stocks were running on the Northern Line with no red on the cab ends, and most stocks prior to 1990's refurbishment had no red on the cab ends (e.g. C, A, 72) while the District D and Piccadilly 73 stocks always had a red lower cab end even when the rest of the train was unpainted aluminium.

I'm guessing it began with the 73 and D Stocks because the 4-track stretch between Baron's Court and Acton Town was notorious for track staff deaths due to the lack of refuges / places of safety and the high speed of the Piccadilly Line trains, so both these stocks were made more 'visible'.

It certainly does work: on a cold grey winter's day an unpainted aluminium train can easily fade into the background, the red cab end does make it far more visible.
Its interesting that on main line railways, the use of red or green is prohibited as it can be confused with signal colours. Track workers are instructed not to wear red or green clothing.

That requirement is probably not applied so stringently nowadays as many different train liveries feature red or green whereas in British Rail days, blue and grey predominated. All the same, a red front end on a train would probably be prohibited by the Railway Inspectorate.
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Old December 31st, 2007, 08:47 PM   #2231
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Its interesting that on main line railways, the use of red or green is prohibited as it can be confused with signal colours. Track workers are instructed not to wear red or green clothing.

That requirement is probably not applied so stringently nowadays as many different train liveries feature red or green whereas in British Rail days, blue and grey predominated. All the same, a red front end on a train would probably be prohibited by the Railway Inspectorate.
...And yet HMRI oversee all railways in the UK (including LUL) and LU trains run over NR infrastructure, so I'd have though if it really was a problem then LU would have been prevented from using red on cab ends. No harm in giving a false red signal though really, the worst is an oncoming train will stop when it shouldn't. A false green is far more dangerous.

There are quite a few red and / or green liveries out there so it's evidently not an issue nowadays... And forest green was standard for BR before blue.

Track workers shouldn't wear red or green though, you're right, as a flapping green bit of clothing could be mistaken for a green flag and prompt a driver to speed up approaching a worksite. I presume that is why the NR flag for approaching a worksite is now blue and white check (like an F1 flag but not black & white) so it can't be confused with any clothing.
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Old January 3rd, 2008, 03:34 PM   #2232
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I've got another question, Tubeman - which arose from some discussion on the Liverpool forum.

How do trains manage to stop accurately enough at the platform edge doors on the Jubilee Line to allow the doors to line up? Are the trains fitted with some special equipment?
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Old January 3rd, 2008, 04:19 PM   #2233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-tubeman can you tell me why all british train except LU have to have yellow fronts, nowehre else in the world has to, whats the purpose and why? surely if it isn't neccessary elsewhere or on the underground it isnt actually necessary and ruins the astetics of the train
It's not only in the UK, here in the Netherlands trains also need to have yellow fronts, even historic museum trains. Some exceptions are made for German and Belgian trains who are crossing the border for a few miles and for the Thalys.

I always thought Holland was the only country in the world with yellow fronts. I even lived five months in the UK and I didn't see it
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Old January 3rd, 2008, 10:24 PM   #2234
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I've got another question, Tubeman - which arose from some discussion on the Liverpool forum.

How do trains manage to stop accurately enough at the platform edge doors on the Jubilee Line to allow the doors to line up? Are the trains fitted with some special equipment?
I'm not tubeman so I don't have the definitive answer...

however, at present I believe it is all done entirely by the driver. There is a leeway of a couple of inches for lining up with the doors. You'll notice at the top end of the platform, on the tunnel wall opposite the backside of the doors, that there is a green marker the front of the train should line up with (pref in the middle).

Often trains do not line up with the doors and the driver has to nudge the train along a little because the doors won't open up unless they line up within the leeway. One presumes with the installation of ATO it will all be lined up near perfectly by computers and machines and things.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 10:44 AM   #2235
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I'm not tubeman so I don't have the definitive answer...

however, at present I believe it is all done entirely by the driver. There is a leeway of a couple of inches for lining up with the doors. You'll notice at the top end of the platform, on the tunnel wall opposite the backside of the doors, that there is a green marker the front of the train should line up with (pref in the middle).

Often trains do not line up with the doors and the driver has to nudge the train along a little because the doors won't open up unless they line up within the leeway. One presumes with the installation of ATO it will all be lined up near perfectly by computers and machines and things.

What he said

The Jubilee Line remains manual, so accuracy stopping is wholly down to the driver. There is a tolerance of a couple of feet either side, as indicated by the green board with black arrows out of the side cab window.

Drivers generally aim to be able to stop a bit short of the stopping mark then roll up gently to it, although it is amazing how with experience / confidence a driver can hit the platform at a fast rate of knots and stop dead on the mark without any 'defensive driving'. The problem is when they mis-judge and go too far: then the train either has to be 'set back' (i.e. worked backwards) or authorised to carry on to the next station without opening the doors.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 02:00 PM   #2236
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Slight non-Tube, but concerns the Overground:

Do you not think it rather short-sighted of Network Rail/Westfield to not have built longer platforms at Shepherd's Bush to accomodate Southern trains - given that the new shopping centre will be a huge draw from all over the region? Not to mention a major interchange for North/West London - e.g. Ealing Broadway to Gatwick...
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Old January 4th, 2008, 03:00 PM   #2237
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Thanks for your replies Tubeman, Sarflonlad.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 03:43 PM   #2238
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Slight non-Tube, but concerns the Overground:

Do you not think it rather short-sighted of Network Rail/Westfield to not have built longer platforms at Shepherd's Bush to accomodate Southern trains - given that the new shopping centre will be a huge draw from all over the region? Not to mention a major interchange for North/West London - e.g. Ealing Broadway to Gatwick...
Yes, it's daft. I believe there is also an issue that the northbound platform is unfit for use because the hulking mass of the shopping centre above has encroached too close to the platform edge, making it illegally narrow in places. Not exactly easy to rectify, and for the same reason I believe the platform would be nigh-on impossible to extend.
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Old January 4th, 2008, 10:26 PM   #2239
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Read about the infamous platform (and other London transport related topics) on this blog
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Old January 5th, 2008, 11:36 AM   #2240
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Thanks matey I couldn't remember where I'd seen it
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