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Old January 5th, 2008, 08:26 PM   #2241
iampuking
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No problem! Do you have any idea why Victoria station on the Victoria line is closed?
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Old January 6th, 2008, 02:23 AM   #2242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
No problem! Do you have any idea why Victoria station on the Victoria line is closed?
Hmmm I dunno... must be to do with works on the access / egress from the platforms: I can't think why else just the Victoria Line platforms at Victoria would close but not the District Line or the rest of the Victoria Line. Maybe carving out new passageways? ...Or it could just be escalator works.
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Old January 6th, 2008, 03:50 AM   #2243
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Hi Tubeman,

Great thread....maybe you can answer some of the following questions:

- What would you say is the best underground line in London, and what would you say is the worst?

- Are there any plans for driverless trains?

- How much is an all-day travelcard these days (for all transport zones covered by London Underground)?

- To the best of your knowledge, what other subway system is most like London's (I've noticed that some of Moscow's stations have that "tube" look)?

- How old is the oldest rolling stock, still currently in use on the London Underground?

I was born in London myself, but I haven't been back for a long time. For me, part of the fun of the city was riding on the Underground, as weird as that may sound. I love the musty smell, the sound of the trains, hearing 1,000 different languages and the general "chaos" of it all.
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Old January 6th, 2008, 08:46 AM   #2244
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For fares, check this guide: It's a bit confusing though as there are so many different options. The essential thing to remember is that there are Oyster Fares (what everyone uses) and Cash fares (much higher and only people who don't know about Oyster use it). Then of cause there are Peak and off Peak fares.

Not to forget Price capping on the Oyster card which works out generally better than daily passes in many cases. This works as such; you travel x amount of journey's in a day, if it reaches the price of a daily pass for those zones (and time of travel) it will cap - in other words, all journeys for the same day after that are essentially free... and the capping is a bit less than a daily pass.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-08-01-02.pdf

I think...

Oyster 1-6 zone Daily (off peak): ?
Oyster 1-6 zone capped (off peak): £6.50
Cash 1-6 zone travel card (off peak): £7?

Oyster 1-6 zone Daily (Peak): ?
Oyster 1-6 zone capped (Peak): £13.30
Cash 1-6 zone travel card (peak): £13.80

In fact, I don't quite understand everything on the above PDF as there is also cheaper prices for 16+ (16years old to what?) and "New Deal", which is half the above fares.

Essentially, I think the prices for off peak are good value for money, especially if you use your Oyster Card to get around - it will work out the cheapest way in most cases. However, I think London Transport is taking the piss when it comes to Peak travel costs. People don't have a choice when to travel to work, and TFL exploits this like no other place I know.

Shame.
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Old January 6th, 2008, 12:14 PM   #2245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Chair View Post
Hi Tubeman,

Great thread....maybe you can answer some of the following questions:

- What would you say is the best underground line in London, and what would you say is the worst?
The worst is pretty easy in my opinion: The Northern

The best is a little more difficult. The quickest and most efficient / reliable would probably be the Victoria Line (more so when the new trains / ATO come in), but it suffers from being very crowded (victim of own success) and VERY hot in the Summer, so from a passenger's perspective maybe not so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Chair View Post
- Are there any plans for driverless trains?
We will never have unstaffed trains on the existing lines: completely unstaffed trains are only realistic if there are emergency walkways along the tunnels which no line but the Jubilee extension have. Two lines are automatic (Victoria and Central, soon to be joined by the Jubilee and Northern), but a driver needs to be present to manually drive if the ATO fails, and the logical place for them to be is in the front cab (their primary function normally is operating the doors).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Chair View Post
- How much is an all-day travelcard these days (for all transport zones covered by London Underground)?
Justme answers that below... I'm no ticket expert unfortunately!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Chair View Post
- To the best of your knowledge, what other subway system is most like London's (I've noticed that some of Moscow's stations have that "tube" look)?
Much of Paris' network is reminiscent of the SSR sections of the Underground, while I suppose Glasgow is the closest to the Tube sections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Chair View Post
- How old is the oldest rolling stock, still currently in use on the London Underground?
Metropolitan Line = A60 Stock = 48 years
Victoria Line = 1967 Stock = 41 years
Circle / H&C / District = C69 Stock = 39 years
Bakerloo Line = 1972 Stock = 36 years
Piccadilly Line = 1973 Stock = 35 years
District Line = D78 Stock = 30 years
Central / Waterloo & City Lines = 1992 Stock = 16 years
Jubilee Line = 1885 Stock = 13 years
Northern Line = 1996 stock = 12 years

The reality is the trains are generally 4 or so years 'newer' than the above dates, as the dates refer to the prototype (e.g. the last 96 Stock Northern Line trains were introduced in 2000).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Chair View Post
I was born in London myself, but I haven't been back for a long time. For me, part of the fun of the city was riding on the Underground, as weird as that may sound. I love the musty smell, the sound of the trains, hearing 1,000 different languages and the general "chaos" of it all.
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Old January 6th, 2008, 01:07 PM   #2246
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Can you tell us anything about the introduction of ATO on the Jubilee and Northern Lines? For example, their estimated delivery dates, the increases in frequencies, changes to routes (e.g. splitting of northern line) ...
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Old January 6th, 2008, 01:18 PM   #2247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
No problem! Do you have any idea why Victoria station on the Victoria line is closed?
Asbestos removal
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Old January 6th, 2008, 05:52 PM   #2248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angry_Chair View Post
- To the best of your knowledge, what other subway system is most like London's (I've noticed that some of Moscow's stations have that "tube" look)?
I think Moscow too... They have an extensive (and old) deep level network, like London. Though London differs a bit in that it lacks chandeliers and statues of 'comrades'...

Compare these two vintage shots, the Moscow station has been rebuilt but the London one remains similar

Moscow



London



They appeared to have "borrowed" a lot of design elements from Charles Holden stations, the lights on the platforms in the top Moscow pic are eerily reminiscent of the ones at Cockfosters station

image hosted on flickr


Escalator lighting...

Pre-war shot of escalator lamps at Holborn in London



Moscow escalator lamps...

image hosted on flickr


The only difference is that they were torn out in the eighties in London following the King's Cross fire when all wooden escalators were replaced.
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Old January 6th, 2008, 06:10 PM   #2249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
The worst is pretty easy in my opinion: The Northern

The best is a little more difficult. The quickest and most efficient / reliable would probably be the Victoria Line (more so when the new trains / ATO come in), but it suffers from being very crowded (victim of own success) and VERY hot in the Summer, so from a passenger's perspective maybe not so.
Based on my own experiences with the Victorian and Northern Lines, I'd have to agree with you! However, I was also never a big fan of the District Line, partly because there were so many stops, especially going west.

Quote:
We will never have unstaffed trains on the existing lines: completely unstaffed trains are only realistic if there are emergency walkways along the tunnels which no line but the Jubilee extension have. Two lines are automatic (Victoria and Central, soon to be joined by the Jubilee and Northern), but a driver needs to be present to manually drive if the ATO fails, and the logical place for them to be is in the front cab (their primary function normally is operating the doors).
Gotcha. Besides, if anything goes wrong, it's always good to have the "human" element, in the form of a driver in charge.

Quote:
Much of Paris' network is reminiscent of the SSR sections of the Underground, while I suppose Glasgow is the closest to the Tube sections.
Agreed - Glasgow's is very similar, although much smaller. I used the Glasgow Subway once - I liked it.

Quote:
Metropolitan Line = A60 Stock = 48 years
Victoria Line = 1967 Stock = 41 years
Circle / H&C / District = C69 Stock = 39 years
Bakerloo Line = 1972 Stock = 36 years
Piccadilly Line = 1973 Stock = 35 years
District Line = D78 Stock = 30 years
Central / Waterloo & City Lines = 1992 Stock = 16 years
Jubilee Line = 1885 Stock = 13 years
Northern Line = 1996 stock = 12 years

The reality is the trains are generally 4 or so years 'newer' than the above dates, as the dates refer to the prototype (e.g. the last 96 Stock Northern Line trains were introduced in 2000).
Wow - so some trains are almost half a deade old. At the end of the day, if they're working fine and not malfunctioning in any way, why replace them? Personally, I like the older trains -- they have so much character.

Thanks for your reply anyway. If I can think of any other London Underground related questions, I'll post some more.
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Old January 6th, 2008, 06:15 PM   #2250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
I think Moscow too... They have an extensive (and old) deep level network, like London. Though London differs a bit in that it lacks chandeliers and statues of 'comrades'...

Compare these two vintage shots, the Moscow station has been rebuilt but the London one remains similar

Moscow



London

Agreed, especially above.

You replied to my "Moscow Metro" thread too with a link that showed dozens of photos from the Moscow Metro. Many of the stations do bear a striking resemblance many London Underground stations (the "tube" type), although Moscow's have old fashioned lamps, elaborate decorations and completely devoid of advertising (a throwback from the dark days of Communism, I'd imagine), while London's stations are literally covered with advertising.

Now I have the urge to visit Moscow, just to ride on the Metro!
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Old January 6th, 2008, 06:29 PM   #2251
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Tubeman, I have a question...

Why is Chelney/Crossrail 2 planned to take over the Epping branch of the Central line? If the answer is to relieve overcrowding then my response is that the overcrowding of the Central line comes from passengers cramming on from main lines at Liverpool Street and Stratford, something which will be "relieved" with Crossrail 1!
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Old January 6th, 2008, 06:31 PM   #2252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Escalator lighting...

Pre-war shot of escalator lamps at Holborn in London



Moscow escalator lamps...

image hosted on flickr


The only difference is that they were torn out in the eighties in London following the King's Cross fire when all wooden escalators were replaced.
It still exists in London now, really. Try my local station Turnpike Lane for example:
image hosted on flickr

Or St. John's Wood
image hosted on flickr
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Old January 6th, 2008, 07:03 PM   #2253
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True, but before almost every single Central London station had them, now only a handful remain.
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Old January 7th, 2008, 01:00 AM   #2254
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They look pretty good. I guess they wont waste money restoring them though.
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Old January 7th, 2008, 01:20 AM   #2255
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Especially when they're going to slap on a pair of fluroscent lights straight above them, runing any sort of lighting effect.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 01:54 PM   #2256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
No problem! Do you have any idea why Victoria station on the Victoria line is closed?

Asbestos removal and line upgrades like they do when they close it at weekends.
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Old January 8th, 2008, 02:00 PM   #2257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Tubeman, I have a question...

Why is Chelney/Crossrail 2 planned to take over the Epping branch of the Central line? If the answer is to relieve overcrowding then my response is that the overcrowding of the Central line comes from passengers cramming on from main lines at Liverpool Street and Stratford, something which will be "relieved" with Crossrail 1!
I believe the original idea was for it to take over part of the 'loop' through Woodford and Hainault and originally off into the Essex countryside, but this was when it was first put forward decades ago, I don't know the ultimate destination, but they seemed to have decided to go the Epping Route - who knows for those that want to reopen the Epping Onger part might have their wish??

Perhaps tubeman knows more......
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Old January 8th, 2008, 02:39 PM   #2258
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It couldn't go round the Hainault loop as it has a tunnelled section between Leytonstone and Newbury Park that is too narrow for the proposed full-sized trains to use the line...
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Old January 9th, 2008, 03:48 PM   #2259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
It couldn't go round the Hainault loop as it has a tunnelled section between Leytonstone and Newbury Park that is too narrow for the proposed full-sized trains to use the line...
Don't forget that it was tube gauge when it was originally proposed in the early 80s, at safeguarding in 1991 (over the two bigger gauge routes) and at the current re-safeguarding (2007). It was only mainline as a possibility in 1995, and when it was stuck with Crossrail branding for 6 years this decade. Every non-tube gauge incarnation of the scheme, plus all but one of the tube-gauge ones (1994) have done Epping (if taking over a central line branch - Crossrail 2 was rather vague).
Quote:
Originally Posted by zfreeman View Post
I believe the original idea was for it to take over part of the 'loop' through Woodford and Hainault and originally off into the Essex countryside, but this was when it was first put forward decades ago, I don't know the ultimate destination, but they seemed to have decided to go the Epping Route - who knows for those that want to reopen the Epping Onger part might have their wish??
I'm sure it spent the first few years of it's live as either, then was going to be Epping when safeguarding got done, then for some reason got changed to the Hainault route in 94, changed back in 95, then to "we don't know" while in it's in it's 'Crossrail 2' phase and then re-safeguarded back as Epping.

The original idea, AFAIK, was Epping, but this got changed in 1994 to Hainault, which was a short lived idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Why is Chelney/Crossrail 2 planned to take over the Epping branch of the Central line? If the answer is to relieve overcrowding then my response is that the overcrowding of the Central line comes from passengers cramming on from main lines at Liverpool Street and Stratford, something which will be "relieved" with Crossrail 1!
1)it's an older scheme - Crossrail is a more recent scheme that got pushed forward as it could serve Heathrow and central Docklands easily and score political points, with far less congestion relief benefits.
2)the Central line is rather crowded in peaks from Leytonstone down, especially Leyton-Stratford - it's not just Stratford-St Pauls.

The answer is to relieve overcrowding, and it would have done it far better than Crossrail will do it. They just can't think of anywhere else to take it past Homerton at the moment to give it a decent route, now Crossrail has scuppered the justification for all the good ones (central line branch, Shenfield, etc).
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Old January 10th, 2008, 08:22 PM   #2260
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Another non LU question - but in your wisdom, I'm sure you know the answer.

I'm trying to understand what allows for HSR. Is it just the state of signaling and lack of dedicated track from other traffic that prevents the UK at present running trains above 125mph? Or is it the actual state of the rails?
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