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Old January 11th, 2008, 01:34 AM   #2261
iampuking
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Why has there been little attempt to make cross-platform interchanges on Crossrail?
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Old January 11th, 2008, 03:32 AM   #2262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Why has there been little attempt to make cross-platform interchanges on Crossrail?
there's cross-platform interchanges at Stratford (with the Central line) and Abbey Wood (with the North Kent line). One guesses that it's a combination of 1)cost
2)health & safety (I can't remember why - I think it's to do with tunnelling main bores so close to open tunnels or some such nonsense)
3)those long platforms making it difficult to fit
and 4)that it's running at a far lower level, in order to avoid the other lines and buildings and so on.

Sadly the safeguarded route of Chelney looks to just have them at Leytonstone and Parsons Green - Angel, Kings Cross (with the Victoria) and Victoria (with the Victoria again) should have got them, as they would have been easyish to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
I'm trying to understand what allows for HSR. Is it just the state of signaling and lack of dedicated track from other traffic that prevents the UK at present running trains above 125mph? Or is it the actual state of the rails?
IIRC, it's a lack of in-cab signalling (which would have to be on all trains on, say, the WCML). We have the trains, we have the line speeds (on both coasts, in places) but we don't have the signalling.

Sorry Tubeman, I keep answering your questions, so I'll give you another one!
Can I have a full list of all proposed alterations and additions to the Underground network? (extensions of lines, new lines, reroutes, etc).
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Old January 11th, 2008, 11:09 AM   #2263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
there's cross-platform interchanges at Stratford (with the Central line) and Abbey Wood (with the North Kent line). One guesses that it's a combination of 1)cost
2)health & safety (I can't remember why - I think it's to do with tunnelling main bores so close to open tunnels or some such nonsense)
3)those long platforms making it difficult to fit
and 4)that it's running at a far lower level, in order to avoid the other lines and buildings and so on.

Sadly the safeguarded route of Chelney looks to just have them at Leytonstone and Parsons Green - Angel, Kings Cross (with the Victoria) and Victoria (with the Victoria again) should have got them, as they would have been easyish to do.IIRC, it's a lack of in-cab signalling (which would have to be on all trains on, say, the WCML). We have the trains, we have the line speeds (on both coasts, in places) but we don't have the signalling.

Sorry Tubeman, I keep answering your questions, so I'll give you another one!
Can I have a full list of all proposed alterations and additions to the Underground network? (extensions of lines, new lines, reroutes, etc).
So both questions you answered can are to dow ith Health & Safety... It sounds almost as cliche as "PC gone mad!" but "H&S has gone mad!" ...

They didn't seem to have problems with boring tunnels for the Victoria line when there were numerous cross-platform interchanges, why do they have it with Crossrail?
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Old January 11th, 2008, 11:35 AM   #2264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
Another non LU question - but in your wisdom, I'm sure you know the answer.

I'm trying to understand what allows for HSR. Is it just the state of signaling and lack of dedicated track from other traffic that prevents the UK at present running trains above 125mph? Or is it the actual state of the rails?
HSR requires a few things:

A certain weight (i.e. quality) of rail
A lack of sharp curves
ATP signalling (conventional signalling not appropriate due to speed of trains)

Obviously there's nothing stopping HSR trains from running on conventional track, just not as fast.
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Old January 11th, 2008, 11:40 AM   #2265
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The ECML used to go at 140mph and theoretically could, it's just they won't let it because some bright spark thought that they wouldn't be able to see the signals. Wouldn't they be abled to hear the Automatic Warning System anyway?
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Old January 11th, 2008, 11:52 AM   #2266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Why has there been little attempt to make cross-platform interchanges on Crossrail?
In addition to sotonsi's reasons, the fact that some of the Crossrail stations lie between two tube stations and link them is also a factor (e.g. Moorgate / Liverpool Street, Tottenham Court Road / Oxford Circus). This means the Crossrail platforms will not be alongside the existing stations.

I guess Bond Street could have been, at Farringdon Crossrail is too deep and crosses the other lines at right angles, at Whitechapel again Crossrail is too deep and the isle of Dogs station is separate from Canary Wharf LU station.

So really the only underground potential cross-platform interchange I think is Bond Street, and I guess this is made impossible by the fact the Jubilee Line crosses quite close below the Central Line and therefore the Crossrail bores would need to be squeezed in above the Jubilee Line, and are probably too big to fit.
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Old January 11th, 2008, 11:53 AM   #2267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
Another non LU question - but in your wisdom, I'm sure you know the answer.

I'm trying to understand what allows for HSR. Is it just the state of signaling and lack of dedicated track from other traffic that prevents the UK at present running trains above 125mph? Or is it the actual state of the rails?
If I could have a pop at answering - HMRI (now part of the rail regulator?) decress any speeds above 125mph need two drivers, due to the possibility of not seeing a signal at such high speeds. This is why the WCML didn't go above 125mph without in-cab signalling which railtrack said it would do and didn't. The ECML has sections of a flashing green to serve as a 5th aspect to allow 140mph speeds, but again requires two drivers present - this being the only section actually signalled to take advantage the two-driver rule in the UK I believe. It's only really been used for 140 mph on class 91 testing and other special runs though.

Theoretically, with in-cab signalling for the high-speed trains there isn't really a signalling limit on the speed, so that would then be down to the track, other traffic, corners, train performance etc if in-cab is ever to be introduced. Though nothing seems to have been publically released, Virgin's request to review speeds of pendo's in the trent valley to 135 mph seems to rest on the fact that the signals in general have been re-sighted to be more visible, the HMRI have been blended with a department with more of an eye on practicality and just just rigid health and safety, and that pendos have a form of in cab signalling to do the tilting mechanisms and enhanced linespeed signalling stuff. As and when in-cab is deployed all over the country the current effective ceiling of 125mph may be removed. Here's hoping - I'm sure the alignments on much of the great western and ECML could happily hit 150mph.

Tubeman, I'm sure there's a few things I've said that may need correcting!
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Old January 11th, 2008, 12:24 PM   #2268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Sorry Tubeman, I keep answering your questions, so I'll give you another one!
Can I have a full list of all proposed alterations and additions to the Underground network? (extensions of lines, new lines, reroutes, etc).
Under Construction:

2008: Heathrow T123 to Heathrow T5

2009: DLR to Woolwich Arsenal

2010: East London Line Phase 1 (Whitechapel to Dalston and New Cross Gate to West Croydon / Crystal palace).

2010: DLR Canning Town to Stratford International via West Ham

2008: Stations at Shepherd's Bush and Imperial Wharf on the West London Line

2008: Station at Wood Lane on the Hammersmith & City Line (with their Shepherd's Bush station having the suffix 'Market' added).

Approved

2011: East London Line Phase 1 extension (Dalston to North London Line)

2014: Crossrail 1

East London Line extension Phase 2 (Surrey Quays to Queen's Road Peckham and thence to Clapham Junction)

DLR Gallions to Dagenham Dock (start 2010?)

Station at Thames View on the DLR Woolwich Arsenal branch

Proposed and likely:

Metropolitan Line to Watford Junction via Croxley Green branch (200m of new line needed between the existing LU Watford branch and the abandoned BR Croxley Green branch, Watford LU would be abandoned).

Bakerloo Line to Watford Junction (not enough 1972 stock to allow this, either the Bakerloo will need its entire fleet replaced with additional trains, or old staock from an upgraded line can be cascaded / converted).

District Line to Uxbridge, Piccadilly Line to Ealing Broadway (i.e. swap)... probably waiting for S Stock introduction to District Line

Metropolitan Line to Barking (ditto above)

DLR bank to Charing Cross

Proposed and unlikely anytime soon:

Bakerloo Line to Hayes (Kent)

Crossrail 2 / Chelney

Anyone else please feel free to add more... I think that's it
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Old January 11th, 2008, 03:43 PM   #2269
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- Northern Line split (quite likely) and possible extension from Kennington further south (unlikely any time soon)
- Thameslink upgrades (approved, partly ready before the Olympics)

I guess that's all for now! It seems like a 5th terminal and third runway at Heathrow are also very likely, in which case the Piccadilly will probably be altered and extended again to serve it.
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Old January 11th, 2008, 05:15 PM   #2270
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Regarding the Bakerloo Line extension to Watford, I'm now obviously in the priveliged (?!) position of attending strategic planning meetings for the line.

Believe it or not we're last in the pecking order for an upgrade and might not see new stock until 2020!!! That would make the 1972 Stock nearly 50 years old by then. I laboured under the misapprehension that Victoria Line 1967 stocks would be converted to make up the numbers to allow the Watford extension, but apparently this has now been ruled out as too expensive so we might be lumbered.

The only hope is if the Central Line 1992 stock continues its deterioration and needs to be replaced pronto, then at the same time x amount of extra units can be added to the order for the Bakerloo Line (a large part of the expense is development / testing, doing 2 lines at once saves money).
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Old January 11th, 2008, 05:27 PM   #2271
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Thanks for answering my questions Tubeman and sotonsi... I guess I forgot that Crossrail's tunnels are much wider than the Victoria line's, making cross-platform interchange more difficult...

A few more questions...

-What is the maximum theoretical speed that tilting trains can go? Not neccessarilly the current designs, but the technology?
-Do you think it's likely that the Piccadilly will get 1995 Stock, albeit slightly more advanced since both lines are run by TubeLines and commonality would be good...
-Do you think the Bakerloo line will receive cars of the longer type or the shorter type when it is upgraded?
-What angle to most LU escalators go up at?
-Are disposed newspapers recycled?
-What's the worst and best thing about your job?

Edit: Why is it expensive for the 1967 Stock to go onto the Bakerloo once they're replaced?

Last edited by iampuking; January 11th, 2008 at 05:33 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2008, 06:59 PM   #2272
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Hi Mr Tube Ive got one silly (maybe not) question :

If I want to visit one of the disused tube stations (Aldwych British Museum etc) whom should I contact to arrange a visit?
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Old January 12th, 2008, 10:42 AM   #2273
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Quote:
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Hi Mr Tube Ive got one silly (maybe not) question :

If I want to visit one of the disused tube stations (Aldwych British Museum etc) whom should I contact to arrange a visit?
I don't think any public access is allowed in the current security climate sadly... I think there used to be little tours of some of the stations of interest like Down Street but nothing now.

I suppose you could visit Aldwych, but only if you are making a film or something. Might be worth contacting the press office and saying you're a professional photographer who wants to take some pictures and see what they say: you'd need to be chaperoned so I guess there would be a cost involved.
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Old January 12th, 2008, 10:53 AM   #2274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Thanks for answering my questions Tubeman and sotonsi... I guess I forgot that Crossrail's tunnels are much wider than the Victoria line's, making cross-platform interchange more difficult...

A few more questions...

-What is the maximum theoretical speed that tilting trains can go? Not neccessarilly the current designs, but the technology?
I can't think of any reason why tilting train technology can't go as fast as any other HSTs, although I guess for Shinkansen or TGV speeds it is deemed better to ensure the track is straight than the trains can tilt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-Do you think it's likely that the Piccadilly will get 1995 Stock, albeit slightly more advanced since both lines are run by TubeLines and commonality would be good...
I believe they'll be getting 'Movia' stock... it'll look very similar to the 2009 Stock. I'm glad: I think the 95 and 96 TS are ugly. Technology is always changing and I think there are a few glitches with the 95 Stock so a new production of an old stock is very unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-Do you think the Bakerloo line will receive cars of the longer type or the shorter type when it is upgraded?
Shorter, I doubt the longer car bodies would fit in some of the tunnels due to the sharp curves scattered across the Bakerloo Line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-What angle to most LU escalators go up at?
30 degrees

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-Are disposed newspapers recycled?
Yes litter picked up from trains / stations is separated and recycled. Most is recyclable (papers, bottles, cans) so it would be a travesty if we didn't. Offices have paper, toner and battery recycling too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
-What's the worst and best thing about your job?
Worst: Trade unions using their members as pawns for political leverage... Making self-serving decisions not in the interest of staff, customers or management. That being said I'm lucky where I am and have a good relationship with my reps.

Best: The sheer diversity of people employed, a feeling that I'm doing something worthwhile, being a part of a great and historical organisation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Edit: Why is it expensive for the 1967 Stock to go onto the Bakerloo once they're replaced?
The cabs would need to be completely remodelled as the conversion is from an ATO stock to manual.
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Old January 12th, 2008, 04:00 PM   #2275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I don't think any public access is allowed in the current security climate sadly... I think there used to be little tours of some of the stations of interest like Down Street but nothing now.

I suppose you could visit Aldwych, but only if you are making a film or something. Might be worth contacting the press office and saying you're a professional photographer who wants to take some pictures and see what they say: you'd need to be chaperoned so I guess there would be a cost involved.
Oh I see...thanks
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Old January 12th, 2008, 06:47 PM   #2276
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El Greco,

In 2004 I visited the Old Aldwych station in the OpenHouse weekend they normally do in September.

But haven't seen any underground ones in the diary with the exception of the brunel tunnels in east london (the route of the East London Line) since then.

Also, in relation to the Brunel tunnels I believe they used to do regular visits 3 or 4 times a year. But i don't know whether they are going to continue them due to the refurbishment works.
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Old January 14th, 2008, 01:57 AM   #2277
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Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Proposed and likely:

District Line to Uxbridge, Piccadilly Line to Ealing Broadway (i.e. swap)... probably waiting for S Stock introduction to District Line
What's the rationale behind this, Tubey?
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Old January 14th, 2008, 05:30 AM   #2278
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As usual, great replies!

Do you think that in the future there will be more attempts to make NR + LO have better interchanges? There are numerous places where lines cross over without any interchange, despite having stations close together, very frustrating! Perhaps they could build moving walkways in a suspended tube? Or those express ones like in Paris..
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Old January 14th, 2008, 01:08 PM   #2279
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What's the rationale behind this, Tubey?
Basically to provide more stock for a more intensive Heathrow service I believe (as there will soon be 2 different Heathrow services).

As I've said before I'd sooner see the Piccadilly Line diverted to Richmond via the abandoned freight underpass just west of Turnham Green and Ealing and Uxbridge become the two western District destinations. This means that the District and Picc can be segregated and the ridiculous (and dangerous) steps at Ealing Common removed along with other adjustments to reduce the gaps at stations west of Barons Court.
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Old January 14th, 2008, 01:14 PM   #2280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
As usual, great replies!

Do you think that in the future there will be more attempts to make NR + LO have better interchanges? There are numerous places where lines cross over without any interchange, despite having stations close together, very frustrating! Perhaps they could build moving walkways in a suspended tube? Or those express ones like in Paris..
Do you mean LO or LU?

I'm assuming you mean LU; yes there are a few irritating non-interchanges at locations like Camden Town / Camden Road, North Acton, and where the Piccadilly Line and NLL cross between KXSP and Caledonian Road.

The latter could be sorted with the re-opening of two abandoned stations (York Road Picc Line and Maiden Lane NLL), which were pretty close together.

The Camden issue could be solved with a new northern entrance to the Barnet platforms, which would surface not a million miles away from Camden Road.

North Acton too could be a pretty easy interchange to create.

I think these interchanges will become key with the new LOROL services, it doesn't function very well as an orbital service if it misses out key interchanges.
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