daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 14th, 2008, 02:00 PM   #2281
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

Both have annoying interchanges... Manor House and Harringey is another example, and Brixton will be missed out from the London Overground when it is extended along the South London line despite being inches away...

About York Road, do you think there is any chance of it opening? Apparently, the lifts are at grade with the platforms like at Caledonian Road so there is no need to make it step-free, that must reduce the cost a helluva lot.
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 14th, 2008, 09:14 PM   #2282
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3271

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Both have annoying interchanges... Manor House and Harringey is another example, and Brixton will be missed out from the London Overground when it is extended along the South London line despite being inches away...

About York Road, do you think there is any chance of it opening? Apparently, the lifts are at grade with the platforms like at Caledonian Road so there is no need to make it step-free, that must reduce the cost a helluva lot.
It was certainly proposed in conjunction with the development of the King's Cross railway lands, but I think it's been dropped now... Shame.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2008, 12:52 AM   #2283
U Thant
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 232
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Do you mean LO or LU?
The latter could be sorted with the re-opening of two abandoned stations (York Road Picc Line and Maiden Lane NLL), which were pretty close together.
The problem is most journeys can be done almost as easily by changing to the Victoria at Finsbury Park or King's Cross, to get on to the North London Line at Highbury & Islington. Most other proposed interchanges have similar easy alternatives, which makes them poor value for money given the high cost of new stations these days.

btw, Imperial Wharf hasn't got funding properly in place yet and no construction has started. There's still a fair chance it'll happen but it's very iffy at the moment.

Actually there's a whole category of "Approved but lacking funding", which means a project won't get built, at least for a while. ELLX phase 2 and DLR to Dagenham Dock fall under this.
U Thant no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2008, 01:10 AM   #2284
U Thant
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 232
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
They didn't seem to have problems with boring tunnels for the Victoria line when there were numerous cross-platform interchanges, why do they have it with Crossrail?
Crossrail is generally much deeper than the Victoria Line and has much larger tunnels, which makes the engineering much harder.

It's also part of the design. They want to reduce crowding in tube stations, which means making the Crossrail platforms separate, with their own entrances and so on. Cross-platform interchange would mean integrating the two.

Meanwhile, they're also keen on taking people all the way to their destination (it serves an awful lot of London destinations directly), which makes providing interchanges less important. So for example at Bond Street, the platforms are further east to have a second entrance serving the Oxford Circus area.

It's an odd project to be sure, but it makes a lot more sense once you realise what trade-offs are being made.
U Thant no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2008, 01:26 AM   #2285
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

Quote:
Originally Posted by U Thant View Post
Most other proposed interchanges have similar easy alternatives, which makes them poor value for money given the high cost of new stations these days.
NLL at North Acton doesn't have much alternative - Bakerloo to Paddington or Oxford Circus.
Quote:
Actually there's a whole category of "Approved but lacking funding", which means a project won't get built, at least for a while. ELLX phase 2 and DLR to Dagenham Dock fall under this.
and funding won't be forthcoming until after Crossrail - Crystal Palace Tramlink is in the same category or even the category below "we've got a route".
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2008, 02:43 AM   #2286
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

Quote:
Originally Posted by U Thant View Post
Crossrail is generally much deeper than the Victoria Line and has much larger tunnels, which makes the engineering much harder.

It's also part of the design. They want to reduce crowding in tube stations, which means making the Crossrail platforms separate, with their own entrances and so on. Cross-platform interchange would mean integrating the two.

Meanwhile, they're also keen on taking people all the way to their destination (it serves an awful lot of London destinations directly), which makes providing interchanges less important. So for example at Bond Street, the platforms are further east to have a second entrance serving the Oxford Circus area.

It's an odd project to be sure, but it makes a lot more sense once you realise what trade-offs are being made.
Thanks for the explanation. Do you know if Crossrail will be well connected with the Tube, or will you have to make silly interchanges which require coming all the way up to street level and then going back down again, i.e. having to pass through two sets of ticket barriers. Also, do you know if the stations where Crossrail has interchange with LU lines, will there be step-free access from the Tube platforms to the surface included? Or will it be completely cut-off like at Waterloo on the JLE...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
It was certainly proposed in conjunction with the development of the King's Cross railway lands, but I think it's been dropped now... Shame.
That's annoying, do you know why it was dropped? Also, I have a question about the Hayes (or North Bromley) extension of the Bakerloo line... What king of market will it 'tap into' I can't help but think passengers from stations like Lewisham or Brockley will prefer to get a faster overground service and change at Charing Cross for the Bakerloo instead... Would it really be well patronised?
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2008, 04:28 AM   #2287
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
What king of market will it 'tap into' I can't help but think passengers from stations like Lewisham or Brockley will prefer to get a faster overground service and change at Charing Cross for the Bakerloo instead... Would it really be well patronised?
Brockley would get direct trains to anywhere beyond London Bridge (if there is a station built there). The bit to Lewisham would be well used - Nunhead and Peckham Rye don't have that good links to the West End, and this will take them directly into the heart of it, rather than waiting longer and changing at Victoria.

Beyond Lewisham is really an attempt to try and solve some of the SE suburban network's problems - namely that Lewisham is a bottleneck - Hayes is a self-contained branch that is also the most annoying - it crosses lots of junctions and has a high frequency (the two main problems are conflicting movements and lots of services merging together). Upthread there is discussion about the problems of Bakerloo to Hayes, and a diagram by me that would provide a better (though more costly) solution.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2008, 05:03 AM   #2288
U Thant
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 232
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
NLL at North Acton doesn't have much alternative - Bakerloo to Paddington or Oxford Circus.
I think you're still looking at the abstract case of getting between two lines. What people actually want to do is get from place to place, and you'll usually find there's a completely different route that doesn't involve those lines at all.
U Thant no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2008, 05:12 AM   #2289
U Thant
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 232
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Thanks for the explanation. Do you know if Crossrail will be well connected with the Tube, or will you have to make silly interchanges which require coming all the way up to street level and then going back down again, i.e. having to pass through two sets of ticket barriers. Also, do you know if the stations where Crossrail has interchange with LU lines, will there be step-free access from the Tube platforms to the surface included? Or will it be completely cut-off like at Waterloo on the JLE...
I'm fairly sure all official interchanges will be below ground and behind barriers, though each station is different. There'll also be a few near misses (I'm thinking Oxford Circus) where it might make sense to take to the street.

I don't think the Crossrail people are in the business of providing lifts within tube stations they connect to, but they'll certainly have them in their new bits.
U Thant no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2008, 05:59 AM   #2290
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,563

Quote:
Originally Posted by U Thant View Post
I think you're still looking at the abstract case of getting between two lines. What people actually want to do is get from place to place, and you'll usually find there's a completely different route that doesn't involve those lines at all.
Still? when have I in the past? When was I then - I was thinking of a journey from a place on the Bakerloo or NLL north/west of Willesden Junction to central Ealing. Oxford Circus, OK, was to get the rest of the places served by the Central line in.

I can't think of any place-place route (which was what I was working with for which a central/NLL interchange would be useful - say Wembley-Ealing, or Greenford-Richmond (I was never thinking abstractly) that can currently be done by train and not be dire (lots of changes, poor frequencies, long walks) or a long way around. For Wembley (or any of the Bakerloo line corridor, or NLL east of Willesden)- central Ealing, the only sensible train route, other than via a North Acton interchage I can find is the one I have already given of Bakerloo to Paddington (as it was the place-place example I was thinking of when I wrote my original post), which you say you don't need to do.

Can you name one journey which could sensibly use an NLL North Acton interchange if it was there, that can be done by a current route (not involving the Bakerloo and changing, which is what I gave, and you have incorrectly poo-pooed as dodgy thinking) that is also sensible and is solely made up of trains? All your place to place "completely different route" involve buses or private transport, yet you statement of "doesn't involve those lines at all" suggests trains, as you imply using other lines, and only train services are called lines - bus services are routes.

Then again, all this is academic - it'll never be built as the junctions there are a pain and get in the way, raising the cost to a level that negates the benefits - if it was just a case of adding platforms, they would have been done years ago, as they provide a useful interchange (despite what you say), however it's not as simple as that.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2008, 02:27 PM   #2291
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

Quote:
Originally Posted by U Thant View Post
I'm fairly sure all official interchanges will be below ground and behind barriers, though each station is different. There'll also be a few near misses (I'm thinking Oxford Circus) where it might make sense to take to the street.

I don't think the Crossrail people are in the business of providing lifts within tube stations they connect to, but they'll certainly have them in their new bits.
Actually, I think Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road are getting rebuilt anyway as part of TfL's investment programme and Farringdon for Thameslink.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
Brockley would get direct trains to anywhere beyond London Bridge (if there is a station built there). The bit to Lewisham would be well used - Nunhead and Peckham Rye don't have that good links to the West End, and this will take them directly into the heart of it, rather than waiting longer and changing at Victoria.

Beyond Lewisham is really an attempt to try and solve some of the SE suburban network's problems - namely that Lewisham is a bottleneck - Hayes is a self-contained branch that is also the most annoying - it crosses lots of junctions and has a high frequency (the two main problems are conflicting movements and lots of services merging together). Upthread there is discussion about the problems of Bakerloo to Hayes, and a diagram by me that would provide a better (though more costly) solution.
I guess the Northern line south of Kennington is in a similar situation, with stations at Balham providing a faster but less frequent service, yet it is still a very well patronised section of the Tube, one of the busiest, isn't it?

This is my idea for a route: Elephant & Castle - Camberwell - Old Kent Road - Queens Road (Peckham) - New Cross (with exits at both New Cross Gate and New Cross NR stations) - Lewisham (interchange for the DLR) - Hither Green - Grove Park - and then it can surface to Sundridge Park and North Bromley.

I've swapped Brockley with New Cross as it's busier area, and if the station is quite deep (i'm assuming it will be) with escalators at both ends of the platform then it'll probably have enough space for two entrances. From Hither Green the tunnels could be cut-and-cover and built directly beneath the NR tracks (perhaps the Bakerloo line can have northbound on the surface and southbound in tunnel with NR flanking either side to provide cross-platform interchange) the cut-and-cover tunnel saves money, but is disruptive... It can take over the North Bromley branch which is pretty useless these days, and there might be space for a depot around the Hither Green area... Anyway, it's just ideas, nothing much!

Last edited by iampuking; January 15th, 2008 at 02:33 PM.
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2008, 04:27 PM   #2292
ChrisH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 351
Likes (Received): 12

This might have come up before, but I'd be interested to know the capacities of a sub-surface Tube train, a deep-level Tube train, and a DLR train - do they vary from line to line as well?
ChrisH no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 15th, 2008, 11:01 PM   #2293
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3271

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
This might have come up before, but I'd be interested to know the capacities of a sub-surface Tube train, a deep-level Tube train, and a DLR train - do they vary from line to line as well?
I think crush loading equates to roughly 200 people per car, i.e. 1,000-1,500 per train depending on the number of cars / seating layout. I guess the fact the Met Line A Stock have 8 cars is offset by the seating layout, so perhaps a 6 car C stock has more capacity under crush loading. It's very hard to measure, short of counting people on and off a packed train. I don't think there's a huge differenc between Tube and Subsurface.

I could only estimate the DLR: maybe 300 per articulated unit or maybe 600 per 2-unit train.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2008, 07:41 PM   #2294
trainrover
:-x
 
trainrover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,787
Likes (Received): 738

Good afternoon, Tubeman.

Tell us, do you know when suicide pits started appearing on the tube lines there? I ask this coz I came across some photo of a Bakerloo-line station underground over there where no such suicide pit had been dug yet -- the photo made me think that the suicide pits appeared sometime after the stations had been commissioned into service there.

A lot of people jump in front of trains here in Montreal, and I`ve been bugging the transport corp to dig suicide pits (they`d probably be too stingy to go about installing platform-edge doors).

Thanking you in advance.
trainrover no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2008, 09:33 PM   #2295
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3271

Quote:
Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
Good afternoon, Tubeman.

Tell us, do you know when suicide pits started appearing on the tube lines there? I ask this coz I came across some photo of a Bakerloo-line station underground over there where no such suicide pit had been dug yet -- the photo made me think that the suicide pits appeared sometime after the stations had been commissioned into service there.

A lot of people jump in front of trains here in Montreal, and I`ve been bugging the transport corp to dig suicide pits (they`d probably be too stingy to go about installing platform-edge doors).

Thanking you in advance.
They were added in the 1930's when The Depression saw a huge increase in suicides. They don't make it any less likely that a person will be killed really, just easier to deal with the consequences.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2008, 11:37 PM   #2296
sarflonlad
Registered User
 
sarflonlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,086
Likes (Received): 68

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
They were added in the 1930's when The Depression saw a huge increase in suicides. They don't make it any less likely that a person will be killed really, just easier to deal with the consequences.
Wow! I just thought this was nickname for the pits and that their actual purpose was to access the tunnel drains or something.
sarflonlad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 16th, 2008, 11:45 PM   #2297
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

Have those platform announcements made by the staff had an affect on dwell time?
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2008, 12:23 AM   #2298
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3271

Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Have those platform announcements made by the staff had an affect on dwell time?
Yes, on busy stations in the peak there are staff on 'SATS' duties (I forget what it stands for), where they hold up the white bat and make a PA via their wireless microphone to hurry up train dispatch. of course some driver ignore them, but it does have a proven positive impact on dwell time.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2008, 12:44 AM   #2299
zfreeman
Registered User
 
zfreeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cork City, formally SY,UK/LDN,UK and CT,SA
Posts: 739
Likes (Received): 1

Hi tubeman
I was travelling through London Bridge earlier today, whats this I hear about dwell times being changed/experimented with.....there was a poster but being rush hour didn't get chance to stop and read it....do you know anything about it?
zfreeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 17th, 2008, 01:36 AM   #2300
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Yes, on busy stations in the peak there are staff on 'SATS' duties (I forget what it stands for), where they hold up the white bat and make a PA via their wireless microphone to hurry up train dispatch. of course some driver ignore them, but it does have a proven positive impact on dwell time.
Great, so they're staying then. I wish they'd just wave their bat around, but maybe i'm too optimistic to think that passengers can let each other off the train first without someone telling them to do so, repetedly.
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
london, railways, tube

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium