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Old December 15th, 2005, 11:45 PM   #221
DarJoLe
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I know it's I guess the correct term, but wouldn't renaming a signal failure to something, well, less failing (in other words, it sounds like the system is falling apart) be a better PR exercise? I know that when I hear the term signal failure it just sounds like another example of how falling apart the system is.

Controversial one - what do you think of the RMT union?
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Old December 16th, 2005, 12:14 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarJoLe
I know it's I guess the correct term, but wouldn't renaming a signal failure to something, well, less failing (in other words, it sounds like the system is falling apart) be a better PR exercise? I know that when I hear the term signal failure it just sounds like another example of how falling apart the system is.

Controversial one - what do you think of the RMT union?
I suppose we could just use a generic term like 'Operating problems', but the bottom line is that if the service is ****ed then Customers can't get from a to b quickly, and that is a failure on our part.

Regarding the RMT (and ASLEF to a lesser degree)...

The Trade Unions proclaiming their support for railway staff are in fact a bunch of militant dinosaurs clinging on to a gravy train.

My attitude is this: 150 years ago we sent kids down mines and up chimneys and there were no real employee rights to speak of. In 2005 every profession is protected by employment law and so there is a real limit to what an employer can do to its employees, whether individually or en masse. The Trade Unions are an industry like any other; they cream money off their members' wages to finance very healthy salaries and perks for the higher up troglodytes like Bob Crowe (who is paid more than any LUL Manager bar Tim O'Toole). They are motivated by personal political gain and greed; more often than not they'll throw their toys out of the pram at a meeting with LU management and call a strike, which costs them nothing but their members a days money simply to raise their profile or make a point.

They care less about the average employee than management guaranteed, and fight tooth and nail to save the jobs of shameless skivers (who by always being absent make their honest TU sub paying colleagues work harder). They do not protect the average employee (because the average is hard working and reliable) but save the oily hides of people who do not deserve a job (often their own reps).

The whole Trade Union industry is morally corrupt and financially corrupt, and people like Bob Crowe make me want to vomit.
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Old December 16th, 2005, 08:54 AM   #223
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Tubeman, back to signal failures.

This seems to be a serious problem on the Tube, but is not on many other large networks. Why is it so much a problem in London? Is it because the design of the signalling system simply doesn't work?

Should they completely scrap it for a better system, one proven elsewhere? I know this would cost money, but surely once done, it would be save the Tube money and more customers would use the more reliable service.
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Old December 16th, 2005, 11:04 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soufian
Are there any new lines opened in the future, please post a map or something please, im very interested.
Hi there,

heres a realistic yet cynical response...

whilst there are some proposals its probable that they wont come into fruition until your granchildren are old, whith granchildren of their own.


despite the fine words the present politicians are working against better transport.

Indeed, according to present-day investment criteria the Victoria Line (which was built in the 1960's) could not be built nowadays because it would be seen as "uneconomic".

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Old December 16th, 2005, 11:15 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman

Crossrail will be explicitly tailored to compliment the Tube and act as a relief line for the West-East Tube lines (esp. Central).
One of the problems with crossrail is that where it takes over existsng mainline railway tracks it will force all other trains off those tracks - and thereby potentially seriously and negatively impacting upon frieght services, as well as reduce operational flexibility (of all services).

Also, they keep changiong the western routes, and whether they will serve the route to Amersham, Richmond / Kingston, Heathrow, Slough / Reading. etc.

I will only believe that the line will be built when I see it underway. Even then, knowing that it has happened overseas I will be wary of workstopping partway.

Simon

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Old December 17th, 2005, 12:43 AM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme
Tubeman, back to signal failures.

This seems to be a serious problem on the Tube, but is not on many other large networks. Why is it so much a problem in London? Is it because the design of the signalling system simply doesn't work?

Should they completely scrap it for a better system, one proven elsewhere? I know this would cost money, but surely once done, it would be save the Tube money and more customers would use the more reliable service.
Our infrastructure is in many places ancient; our technology is generally pre-war Westinghouse gear... It is well past its sell-by date. Sadly the recent instances where we have bought 'state-of-the-art' signalling (e.g. Central Line), that seems to have been even more prone to failure than 1930's vintage stuff. It baffles me, it really does. There's no acceptable reason for it.

Watch the forthcoming signalling (ATO) upgrades of the Jubilee and Northern Lines closely to see if its done any better under PPP... hopefully it will. If these are ****-ups then there's no hope for us!

If DLR can do it, why can't LUL?
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Old December 17th, 2005, 12:54 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsmiler
One of the problems with crossrail is that where it takes over existsng mainline railway tracks it will force all other trains off those tracks - and thereby potentially seriously and negatively impacting upon frieght services, as well as reduce operational flexibility (of all services).

Also, they keep changiong the western routes, and whether they will serve the route to Amersham, Richmond / Kingston, Heathrow, Slough / Reading. etc.

I will only believe that the line will be built when I see it underway. Even then, knowing that it has happened overseas I will be wary of workstopping partway.

Simon

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I doubt Crossrail will have the negative impact you mention; existing Thames Trains services will simply become Crossrail and continue beyond Paddington under London instead of terminating. I expect a huge growth in traffic from places like Southall, Hanwell and Hayes but these are currently served by weedy 3 car trains but will get 12 car monsters from Crossrail, so capacity can be happily quadrupled without taking up any extra train paths. The GWR main line is 6 roads to Old Oak Common then 4 beyond, so I'm certain there's enough room for any extra trains.

Richmond / Kingston has officially been dropped, it would be a virtual crawl along a lot of the route anyway, so I think its value would be limited.

The logic behind the Amersham route was to close Marylebone; all of the Chiltern trains would be diverted at Neasden via the Dudding Hill Loop and a new curve at Old Oak Common to Crossrail. Chesham would be handed to Crossrail and the Metropolitan Line would cease operations north of the Junction with the Watford Branch, allowing separation of the routes all the way from there to Neasden. The drawback was that all of the Chiltern Lines would therefore need 25kv Overhead electrification as obviously DMUs aren't wanted in the Crossrail Tunnel... I think this, with the new curve at Old Oak and upgrade to the Dudding Hill Loop, made it prohibitively expensive.
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Old December 17th, 2005, 01:11 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman

Your observation about power supply is correct; LUL uses 4th rail and NR 3rd rail. Main Line trains pick up (approx) 750V DC from their 3rd rail and feed it back through the running rails (i.e. what the wheels run on). LUL trains use a bizarre system whereby 420V DC is collected from the 'Positive' Rail (the one on the outside) and 210V DC from the 'Negative' Rail (the one in the middle), giving a total of 630V DC. The LUL trains that run onto Network Rail infrastructure (i.e. District and Bakerloo) are able to also pick up the 750V DC through the Positive shoes and return the current via the Negative shoes, so whereas the middle current rail on LUL is live, on Network Rail routes used by LUL its just a return. Beacuse of the incompatability, there is a gap in the current rails halfway across Putney Rail Bridge at the former boundary of property to prevent a train from bridging the gap.
Hi Tubeman,

to be pendantic shouldn't that be expresed as +420v dc and -210 v dc???

also explains why its not safe to stand on the centre rail (not that any sane person would want to, either way).

also, when the LNWR first electrified its lines it also used the 4th rail system (indeed those which still survived were only converted to 3rd rail in 1970) - but did it also electrify at +420v and -210v or with the full line voltage on the outer rail? (Euston / Broad Street - Watford / Croxley / Ricky, & Richmond, WLL and Kew).

Another question, which admittedly you may not know, as its about Liverpool, - the Mersey railway first used trains which were 3rd rail for part of the route, and 4th rail elsewhere, with the guard switching systems during a station stop. I guess that this line used full line voltage on the 3rd rail - am I correct?

Thanks

Simon
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Old December 17th, 2005, 01:45 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spsmiler
Hi Tubeman,

to be pendantic shouldn't that be expresed as +420v dc and -210 v dc???

also explains why its not safe to stand on the centre rail (not that any sane person would want to, either way).

also, when the LNWR first electrified its lines it also used the 4th rail system (indeed those which still survived were only converted to 3rd rail in 1970) - but did it also electrify at +420v and -210v or with the full line voltage on the outer rail? (Euston / Broad Street - Watford / Croxley / Ricky, & Richmond, WLL and Kew).

Another question, which admittedly you may not know, as its about Liverpool, - the Mersey railway first used trains which were 3rd rail for part of the route, and 4th rail elsewhere, with the guard switching systems during a station stop. I guess that this line used full line voltage on the 3rd rail - am I correct?

Thanks

Simon
My GCSE Physics doesn't serve me too well. Is there such a thing as a negative voltage? Pass...

I suppose as Voltage is 'Potential Difference' and all our gear runs off 630V then it does make sense that its +420V and -210V (i.e. 630V difference), although we were never taught this, all we're told is the Positive Rail = 420V DC and the Negative = 210V DC giving a 'total' of 630V DC. No + or - mentioned.

I seem to recall that the LNWR 4th rail electrification had slightly lower voltages; 600V DC. I'm unsure whether all 600V were in one rail and the other a return, I'd have to do some research.

Re: Merseyrail... Pass!
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Old December 17th, 2005, 03:52 PM   #230
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Hey Tubeman, I know Jubilee is adding a 7th carriage for their trains (and the DLR Bank-Lewisham a third car), how many trains do the other lines run?
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Old December 17th, 2005, 04:29 PM   #231
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Are there any new lines opened in the future????????????????? 3 time
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Old December 17th, 2005, 04:41 PM   #232
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there are lot of tram projects and the east london line extension, and crossrail, and thameslink 2000 improvements.
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Old December 17th, 2005, 04:53 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soufian
Are there any new lines opened in the future????????????????? 3 time
Sorry Soufian, I've been rude

I get carried away answering big questions and forget about the short ones!

One extension is definitely happening; East London Line phase 1. It is expected to open in 2010, but its will very likely ultimately end up a Network Rail (i.e. Main Line) route and I'm unsure whether it will get London Underground branding.

New works involve a link from south of the current Shoreditch terminus, crossing above the Liverpool St Main Line, over the former Bishopsgate Goods Yard, across Shoreditch High St, then onto the abandoned North London Railway Broad Street Line all the way to Dalston. New stations will open at Shoreditch High Street, Hoxton, Haggerston and Dalston. In the south the ELL will be reconnected with the Main Line at New Cross Gate and a new flyover built so that trains can access the 'slow' lines between New Cross Gate and West Croydon, there will also be a branch at Sydenham to Crystal Palace. All these will be existing stations and lines served by ELL trains, but at last a lot of South East London will get 'underground' stations.



On the above map the branches to Clapham Junction and beyond Dalston (Junction) to Highbury & Islington are 'Phase 2' and are not definitely going ahead at present.

Another project is the diversion / extension of the Metropolitan Line to Watford Junction:



The current terminus is poorly sited for central Watford, and there is an abandoned Main Line branch (1995) to Croxley Green which ends a couple of hundred yards from the Metropolitan Line. The proposal is for the abandonment of Watford (Met) and new viaduct to be built across the Grand Union Canal linking to the former Croxley Green Branch. A new station would open at Ascot Road, and Watford West would re-open (Watford Stadium would stay closed). Watford High St and Watford Junction would then be served by LUL trains for the first time since the Bakerloo Line was withdrawn in 1982.

Sorry for the delay!
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Old December 17th, 2005, 04:56 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by samsonyuen
Hey Tubeman, I know Jubilee is adding a 7th carriage for their trains (and the DLR Bank-Lewisham a third car), how many trains do the other lines run?
Metropolitan, Central, Victoria = 8
Jubilee, Bakerloo = 7
District, Circle, Hammersmith & City, Piccadilly, Northern = 6
East London, Waterloo & City = 4
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Old December 17th, 2005, 05:07 PM   #235
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They were talking about the Croxley Link project as though it was going to happen any time when I lived in London... in 1995/6!
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Old December 17th, 2005, 06:09 PM   #236
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They were talking about the Croxley Link project as though it was going to happen any time when I lived in London... in 1995/6!
Yes, its pathetic. Its about 200m of new railway

Its still not 'go', I wish they'd stop talking about building it and just build it!
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Old December 17th, 2005, 06:19 PM   #237
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TFL is up to its eyeballs in debt. After this round of transport improvements we won't see any for decades.

The only saving grace is that any mayoral candidate will have to promise more transport projects and at least London has its own voice now. We will be saving milions from Bob Kiley though.
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Old December 18th, 2005, 12:54 AM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pricemazda
TFL is up to its eyeballs in debt. After this round of transport improvements we won't see any for decades.

The only saving grace is that any mayoral candidate will have to promise more transport projects and at least London has its own voice now. We will be saving milions from Bob Kiley though.
Well, it would be better if they spent their precious money on transport improvements which everyone wants, and which potentially will benefit many people - rather than expandiing the congestion charge zone, which consumes money and is something that virtually no-one wants, and will actually disbenefit people.

But the politicans are more interested in showpiece schemes than things which really benefit the people of London.

Another aspect of the CCZ expansion is that they want to trial RFID chipping of vehicles as part of a nationwide road pricing scheme. The national govt. is happy to let local govt. perform the trials, at least partly because then the local govt can take the flak if things go wrong.

But if things go as they wish it will lead to the creation of a network of RFID readers throughout Britain. Then they will be able to track us 24/7. This will be sold as a way to imnprove safety and reduce congestion - but congestion would be reduced if they reduced transport fares and generally improved the transport, whilst even if the 7/7 bombers had known that they were being tracked I dont see how that would have deterred them - after all, they were on suicide missions.

Simon

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Old December 18th, 2005, 01:19 AM   #239
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I Dont understand why the residents don't want the extension, it makes no sense they would be inside the zone whereas now they are on the edge of the zone. They get a 95% discount being inside the zone whereas currently they would have to pay to go into town.
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Old December 18th, 2005, 01:34 AM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman
Sorry Soufian, I've been rude

I get carried away answering big questions and forget about the short ones!

One extension is definitely happening; East London Line phase 1. It is expected to open in 2010, but its will very likely ultimately end up a Network Rail (i.e. Main Line) route and I'm unsure whether it will get London Underground branding.

New works involve a link from south of the current Shoreditch terminus, crossing above the Liverpool St Main Line, over the former Bishopsgate Goods Yard, across Shoreditch High St, then onto the abandoned North London Railway Broad Street Line all the way to Dalston. New stations will open at Shoreditch High Street, Hoxton, Haggerston and Dalston. In the south the ELL will be reconnected with the Main Line at New Cross Gate and a new flyover built so that trains can access the 'slow' lines between New Cross Gate and West Croydon, there will also be a branch at Sydenham to Crystal Palace. All these will be existing stations and lines served by ELL trains, but at last a lot of South East London will get 'underground' stations.
Hi Tubeman,

Although I dont know the exact dates at least two of the stations on the NLL viaduct (in addition to Dalston Junction) will be reopenings of old stations.

Dalston Junction closed when the route to Broad Street closed, but there were several other stations between there and Broad Street, which closed as a result of wartime bombing. I think it was in 1940.

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