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Old March 5th, 2008, 08:21 PM   #2421
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The GWML isn't a good candidate - it has too many branches that'd you'd have to either do them all or still run lots of diesel trains.

The economic benefits of electrification aren't great, and given modern diesel trains are almost as quiet and fast and energy efficient as electric ones, there just isn't much of a case for doing it. That said, small scale projects on busy lines that make better use of existing electrification (eg Manchester-Preston and Maidenhead-Oxford/Newbury) are still plausible under current government thinking.

The WCML upgrade is still ongoing btw. It supposedly finishes this December when Virgin will introduce a much more frequent timetable and slightly faster journey times.
Yes the entire GWR main line will never happen... the section between Exeter and Plymouth which fringes the sea and often has waves breaking over it certainly couldn't have 25Kv AC OLE, and I don't believe wires will fit in the Severn Tunnel either. At best we could have Paddington to Exeter and Bristol Temple Meads and the entire route between Didcot and Birmingham via Oxford electrified, but I agree that financial benefits are limited and OLE routes are vulnerable to the wires being downed, which obviously isn't an issue with unelectrified routes.
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Old March 5th, 2008, 09:48 PM   #2422
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Quote:
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Yes the entire GWR main line will never happen... the section between Exeter and Plymouth which fringes the sea and often has waves breaking over it certainly couldn't have 25Kv AC OLE, and I don't believe wires will fit in the Severn Tunnel either. At best we could have Paddington to Exeter and Bristol Temple Meads and the entire route between Didcot and Birmingham via Oxford electrified, but I agree that financial benefits are limited and OLE routes are vulnerable to the wires being downed, which obviously isn't an issue with unelectrified routes.
But aren't these feeble excuses? Surely now we have the technology to overcome these problems?

As for the Severn Tunnel - what about DC 3rd rail electrification? Dual voltage systems are up an running all over the place.

Anyway, question tubeman... I'm trying to find out the speeds for the UK's main trunk routes. I have the WCML/ECML as 125mph - but what about West of England and the Midland Mainline? I travelled on these both recently and was taken aback by just how fast the diesels can reach out of Paddington. The MML however felt very slow.

Which routes are classfied as HST (by British standards of course....!) ?
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Old March 6th, 2008, 01:34 AM   #2423
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The lack of further electrification isn't a technical issue - there's no desire to even try because the benefits aren't especially clear compared to the costs.

Line speeds vary continuously along the route. The only 125mph routes are Paddington to Bristol, most of the ECML and most of the WCML (with tilt). The MML is 90-110 mph for most of length, as is the West of England branch.
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Old March 9th, 2008, 10:59 AM   #2424
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The lack of further electrification isn't a technical issue - there's no desire to even try because the benefits aren't especially clear compared to the costs.

Line speeds vary continuously along the route. The only 125mph routes are Paddington to Bristol, most of the ECML and most of the WCML (with tilt). The MML is 90-110 mph for most of length, as is the West of England branch.
Yes the GWR main line was extremely well engineered by Brunel: to have built an entire main line 170 years ago with gradients / curves gentle enough to allow 125mph in an age when that sort of speed was a pipe dream was visionary.
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Old March 9th, 2008, 11:56 PM   #2425
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Not sure if you'll know the answer to this Tubeman as it's a bus question. Why is it that they change drivers halfway through the route. On the No 1 route (from Tottenham Ct Rd to Canada Water) they often change bus drivers in Bermondsey at the end of Grange Road, making the service ultra slow (both because of the actual change and because the driver doesn't want to arrive before his replacement driver). Why not do it at Canada Water ?
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Old March 11th, 2008, 12:03 AM   #2426
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Not sure if you'll know the answer to this Tubeman as it's a bus question. Why is it that they change drivers halfway through the route. On the No 1 route (from Tottenham Ct Rd to Canada Water) they often change bus drivers in Bermondsey at the end of Grange Road, making the service ultra slow (both because of the actual change and because the driver doesn't want to arrive before his replacement driver). Why not do it at Canada Water ?
Same reason why preferably Tube driver changover points are not at the ends of lines: it allows the flexibility of being able to turn late-running services short whilst still allowing crew changes to take place.

It also sometimes simply depends on where the depots / garages are: I'm guessing the Bermonsdesy relief point is associated with the London General garage at Mandela Way?
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Old March 11th, 2008, 12:11 AM   #2427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U Thant View Post
The lack of further electrification isn't a technical issue - there's no desire to even try because the benefits aren't especially clear compared to the costs.

Line speeds vary continuously along the route. The only 125mph routes are Paddington to Bristol, most of the ECML and most of the WCML (with tilt). The MML is 90-110 mph for most of length, as is the West of England branch.
You're not seriously telling me the GWR main line could ever be electrified here though?:



25,000v can jump a fair distance at the best of times: chucking salt water at it would be lethal!

So there are technical issues, and this one between Dawlish and Teignmouth is pretty much insurmountable without hugely diverting the line or enclosing the current line somehow.

Therefore, I can't see how the GWR main line could ever be electrified beyond Exeter.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 03:58 AM   #2428
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Absolutely - they manage it in similar conditions at Saltcoats just fine.

(though reopening the line via Okehampton would also be an option, and may have to happen anyway)
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Old March 11th, 2008, 09:27 PM   #2429
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Absolutely - they manage it in similar conditions at Saltcoats just fine.

(though reopening the line via Okehampton would also be an option, and may have to happen anyway)
Surely someone standing on the above platform runs the risk of being fried by 25,000Kv if it were OLE and a well-placed plume of seawater splashes upwards? Arcs can jump a metre through air, let alone seawater.
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Old March 12th, 2008, 03:52 AM   #2430
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Tubeman
Do you have an opinion on the Mayor's negotiations to become responsible for the inner suburban services in South London?
__________________
The "rest of the story" is buried in the details
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Old March 12th, 2008, 11:02 PM   #2431
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Tubeman
Do you have an opinion on the Mayor's negotiations to become responsible for the inner suburban services in South London?
Yeah I'm all for it... In the future I want to see one unified electric railway network in London with no Under- Over- ground distinction. I think the SSR and suburban NR routes can be completely integrated (the ELLE is the start I hope) and new services implemented.

It should all be under TFL in my opinion.
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Old March 13th, 2008, 02:13 AM   #2432
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Tubeman, do you know what day the strike will be next week? (my girlfriend needs to use the underground and I thought if anyone knows you will ).
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Old March 14th, 2008, 06:16 PM   #2433
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Tubeman, do you know what day the strike will be next week? (my girlfriend needs to use the underground and I thought if anyone knows you will ).

No strike for at least 28 days... We've not had notice yet
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Old March 14th, 2008, 08:33 PM   #2434
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No strike for at least 28 days... We've not had notice yet
Hi Tubeman, thanks for that you are a star.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 01:18 AM   #2435
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wait a minute why is there going to be a strike Tubeman its going to affect your job?

what are you going to do?
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Old March 15th, 2008, 12:34 PM   #2436
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wait a minute why is there going to be a strike Tubeman its going to affect your job?

what are you going to do?
Two of the three main unions might strike... it's all about finding ridiculous non-issues to strike about as a means of turning the heat up on Ken Livingstone prior to the Mayoral election this Summer. It's a bargaining chip to gain concessions out of TFL.

The TSSA (pretty much all office staff) have never striked (struck surely?) in my time with LU and they alone would have negligible impact on operations. The RMT are the biggie with the majority of station staff and about half the Train staff, they can cripple us.

ASLEF who are strictly Train drivers and their managers aren't interested, they represent about half the drivers, varying from depot to depot (mine has a high % of ASLEF).

I had an RMT-only strike on my line in July '07, we ran about 75% of the normal service between Queens Park and Elephant & Castle, and then the heavens opened at lunchtime and dumped about 4 inches of rain on London, and Kensal Green and Harlesden tunnels flooded so we wouldn't have been able to run beyond Queen's Park anyway. So many lines succumbed to flooding that afternoon that we ran a better service than most, and the strike didn't even get a mention in the evening papers.
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Old March 15th, 2008, 06:36 PM   #2437
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I'm watching an episode of Superstructures where they feature the history of LU. Now I know that many people took refuge in the tunnels, and some were used for storage of priceless pieces of art, factories for aircraft components etc during WW2.

Was wondering if there were any contingency plans if some freak event happened? Have certain stations been designated as possible underground places for refuge, storing artwork, govt documents etc???
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Old March 16th, 2008, 01:42 PM   #2438
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I'm watching an episode of Superstructures where they feature the history of LU. Now I know that many people took refuge in the tunnels, and some were used for storage of priceless pieces of art, factories for aircraft components etc during WW2.

Was wondering if there were any contingency plans if some freak event happened? Have certain stations been designated as possible underground places for refuge, storing artwork, govt documents etc???
I'm not aware of anything, but obviously those sorts of plans would be restricted anyway. I guess the perceived threats to London are very different to WW2 insofar back then we could hive away artwork and archives underground to protect from the Luftwaffe, but since WW2 the 'threat' has been nuclear annihilation, where we'd only 4 minutes warning if at all and saving some paintings would be the least of our worries.

Maybe the biggest threats today are terrorists detonating a dirty bomb or biological / chemical attack, and in any of these instances you'd expect things like paintings to be ok (and plus you wouldn't get enough time to move them)... Maybe the biggest hazard is theft / looting after such an attack?
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Old March 18th, 2008, 09:18 PM   #2439
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Over the past couple of weeks i have been reading a book about the development of the Underground and Ideas as they were proposed.

It seems to me as though many of the ideas in the early days have no been taken up by others lines albeit slightly adapted route wise, however these routes were mainly concentrated in the Western half of London.

Does anyone know about any other development in East London that did not go ahead as planned?
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Old March 18th, 2008, 09:48 PM   #2440
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There is the Morgan Tube, which was to be built into Hackney. Some of the Northern Heights lines would go quite far north east. The Fleet line would have run into Docklands or Lewisham (ended up being the jubilee) and the Bakerloo was to further south east to camberwell, as was the Victoria which was heading for Croyden.

I personaly don't feel the east is badly served, certainly not after the East London Railway extensions are finished. The Hackney-Chelsea line is the missing piece of the puzzel.
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