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Old July 28th, 2008, 06:30 PM   #2661
hegneypl
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Correct!

Oops, I am comparing apples to oranges. Wrong! Just wanted to show the condition of these beasts. They run outdoors and have dented roof surfaces, rust and a general feel/look of agedness.

Last edited by hegneypl; July 28th, 2008 at 06:32 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old July 29th, 2008, 01:57 PM   #2662
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New question from me: when the East London Line works are finished to extend it north, where will it terminate? Will trains run from Highbury/Islington round to New Cross?
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Old July 29th, 2008, 03:03 PM   #2663
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Highbury & Islington by 2010.

The entire Overground could look like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:L...und_future.png

Of course, if TfL get their hands on the heavy rail routes currently in the hands of various TOCs including Southern and Southeastern, the Overground brand will spread even further.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 03:31 PM   #2664
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The ELL will run to Dalston Junction some time in early 2010, and a year later to Highbury & Islington. It'll have dedicate tracks all the way, and the track layout will preclude running trains off them further west than H&I. It'll be the Crystal Palace and New Cross services that run this far, with the West Croydons continuing to terminate at Dalston Junction.

Taking over any of Southern's services is definitely off, and the Southeastern franchise doesn't expire until 2014, so it's unlikely there'll be any other expansion of the Overground brand in the foreseeable future.

(The new Southern franchisee will be required to make Overground-style service and quality improvements, so there's a tiny chance they could use the brand in some way)
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Old July 29th, 2008, 08:05 PM   #2665
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Two questions:

1. At the existing stations on the southern part of ELL extension, such as Forest Hill and Crystal Palace, will there be more services provided by London Overground than Southern? If so, will LO take over the stations and branding, or will they be like Streatham which is run and branded by Southern but primarily served by First Capital Connect?

2. Tubeman, is it possible to find out the times of H&C line services that start in the bay platform 3 at Plaistow tube station? I often see H&C line trains pull out empty from Platform 3 because of a lack of information on the indicator boards (announcements are non-existent!) Meanwhile, the rest of us try crushing on to packed District or H&C line services on Platform 1 that have come down from Barking or Upminster.

Many commuters on these services change at West Ham or Mile End, so knowing that you can catch an empty train and grab a seat would be much better than cramming on to a full train.

The information boards at Plaistow never give information for platform 3. The H&C line timetable on the TfL website gives approximate times of departures but there's no indication as to whether the service is a through train from Barking or starts at Plaistow.
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Old July 29th, 2008, 08:50 PM   #2666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaistow View Post
At the existing stations on the southern part of ELL extension, such as Forest Hill and Crystal Palace, will there be more services provided by London Overground than Southern?
Yes. 8 or 4 trains per hour LO vs a token Southern service.
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If so, will LO take over the stations and branding, or will they be like Streatham which is run and branded by Southern but primarily served by First Capital Connect?
According to the new Southern franchise document, London Overground will be taking over New Cross Gate, Brockley, Honor Oak Park, Forest Hill, Sydenham, Penge West, Anerley, Crystal Palace, Norwood Junction and West Croydon. Several of these stations have already had ticket gates installed by LO, and the rest will be getting them. It looks like New Cross will be the only one not managed by them.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 01:58 AM   #2667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U Thant View Post
Yes. 8 or 4 trains per hour LO vs a token Southern service.
surely not? That would be awful. Surely it's something like 4tph Southern north of Sydenham? Penge West and Anerley would get a token service (Anerley gets nothing off peak).

The 2015 peak timetable would involve 4tph Thameslink to Norwood Junction, some extending, and 2tph Southern to Crystal Palace and beyond. The overground would be 4tph to West Croydon and 6tph to Crystal Palace. Off peak, I can't expect it to drop much.

Then again, this was the 2015 timetable idea realising that you can't replace a radial service with an orbital one, only supplement it, and maybe partially replace it.

To only have a token London Bridge service would be like redirecting the whole Wimbledon branch of the District to Edgware Road, save a couple of trains - having the Wimblewares is great and they are popular, however every other train heads to somewhere more major - the southern edges of both the West End and the City and are just as popular, if not more so.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 02:14 AM   #2668
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I have a question, Tubeman. Why does the Northern line run on the right between Borough and Moorgate, instead of the usual left?

Thanks for any replies!
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Old July 30th, 2008, 03:11 AM   #2669
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
surely not? That would be awful. Surely it's something like 4tph Southern north of Sydenham? Penge West and Anerley would get a token service (Anerley gets nothing off peak).
Looking at the franchise spec again, you're right, and all trains will be all stops as the higher frequency means limited stop trains can't fit in the timetable.

I believe the original ELL proposals had far fewer services to London Bridge, as it's easily reachable via the Jubilee. There's precedent for diverting local services away from termini - ECML locals to Moorgate, Upminster locals to the District, etc.
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Old July 30th, 2008, 03:05 PM   #2670
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however Moorgate is a city branch for the GN (one that already existed, via what is now the Thameslink route) and the District line was just a diversion to the 'crossrail' line - it's no different to the Met/Marylebone thing - Baker Street is a bit away from Marylebone, just as Tower Hill is a bit away from Fenchurch Street. However both the Met and District go beyond their nearby-to-terminus stations.

On the other hand the ELR doesn't serve the same area as London Bridge (eg Tower Hill/Fenchurch Street or Baker Street/Marylebone), nor does it serve the City any better (unlike Moorgate vs Kings Cross).

While there's precedent for diverting to a tube line through central London or to a different terminus, there's no precedent for diverting a radial line onto an orbital one that doesn't enter zone 1. The Wimbleware route is a similar, not-quite-central route, so my suggestion that it would be a diversion of all Wimbledon district trains to Edgware Road is similar thing. It will work with the trains to London Bridge and beyond as well as Dalston.
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Old July 31st, 2008, 02:09 AM   #2671
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Tubeman, have your ever visited the States? Spend any time on a system here?
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Old July 31st, 2008, 01:31 PM   #2672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
however Moorgate is a city branch for the GN (one that already existed, via what is now the Thameslink route) and the District line was just a diversion to the 'crossrail' line - it's no different to the Met/Marylebone thing - Baker Street is a bit away from Marylebone, just as Tower Hill is a bit away from Fenchurch Street. However both the Met and District go beyond their nearby-to-terminus stations.

On the other hand the ELR doesn't serve the same area as London Bridge (eg Tower Hill/Fenchurch Street or Baker Street/Marylebone), nor does it serve the City any better (unlike Moorgate vs Kings Cross).

While there's precedent for diverting to a tube line through central London or to a different terminus, there's no precedent for diverting a radial line onto an orbital one that doesn't enter zone 1. The Wimbleware route is a similar, not-quite-central route, so my suggestion that it would be a diversion of all Wimbledon district trains to Edgware Road is similar thing. It will work with the trains to London Bridge and beyond as well as Dalston.
I'm sure I read somewhere that the Wimbleware takes 60% of Wimbledon branch traffic. If extended to Moorgate, it would be much more useful.
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Old August 5th, 2008, 08:58 PM   #2673
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Sorry guys have been in the Yorkshire Dales with no t'internet for 6 days, am back now though
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Old August 5th, 2008, 09:24 PM   #2674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaistow View Post
2. Tubeman, is it possible to find out the times of H&C line services that start in the bay platform 3 at Plaistow tube station? I often see H&C line trains pull out empty from Platform 3 because of a lack of information on the indicator boards (announcements are non-existent!) Meanwhile, the rest of us try crushing on to packed District or H&C line services on Platform 1 that have come down from Barking or Upminster.

Many commuters on these services change at West Ham or Mile End, so knowing that you can catch an empty train and grab a seat would be much better than cramming on to a full train.

The information boards at Plaistow never give information for platform 3. The H&C line timetable on the TfL website gives approximate times of departures but there's no indication as to whether the service is a through train from Barking or starts at Plaistow.

I'd need to dig around on the intranet at work to get timetables (all that are publicly available are first & last trains)... Although I'd caution that probably a lot of H&C trains terminating at Plaistow are timetabled Barking reversers being turned short due to late running, and so are unpredictable and not timetabled. I don't think there are many timetabled Plaistow reversers at all, there'll be a couple per day, but I very much doubt there'd be any intentional Plaistow reversers during the peaks (waste of train paths beyond Plaistow to the very busy Upton Park and East Ham stations, not to mention Barking).
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Old August 6th, 2008, 12:00 AM   #2675
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Thanks, look forward to it. There's always a fair few in the morning peak and a couple at night. I'd suggest that the morning peak is due to low patronage going east, and so it makes sense to reverse them and get them working the westbound via Kings Cross etc.
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Old August 6th, 2008, 02:52 AM   #2676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
I have a question, Tubeman. Why does the Northern line run on the right between Borough and Moorgate, instead of the usual left?

Thanks for any replies!
Honestly don't know... Might just be a funny little anomaly.

The roads under which the Northern Line runs get narrow enough to warrant the bores being stacked one above the other (other examples being Chancery lane and Notting Hill Gate on the Central Line), but why they end up 'the other way around' through London Bridge and Bank I don't know. The only possible explanation I can offer is something to do with when the line was extended off the original C&SLR route at Borough to Bank, closing the original King William St terminus?
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Old August 6th, 2008, 02:59 AM   #2677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hegneypl View Post
Tubeman, have your ever visited the States? Spend any time on a system here?

Have been to NYC twice, San Francisco twice, Miami, South Beach, The Florida Keys inc Key West, and a lot of the national parks in Utah, Arizona and Colorado.

The only metro I have been there on is the NYC subway (have been on the SF streetcars and cable cars but these don't really count I guess). I liked the subway's air of history and grittiness, but find it lacks The Tube's warmth and welcome.
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Old August 7th, 2008, 01:43 AM   #2678
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From all the reading and pictures I've seen I have to agree. I even have a video on the Tube! That system is loaded with so many different facets it makes it desirable just to see it. I have ridden several lines that have been discontinued in NY, especially the 3rd Avenue El. While it was not the first el in NY, it was the longest at one point and the last one in Manhattan to be torn down. Of course it ran right through neighborhood where I was born so I have an emotional attachment to it. My wife rode the tubes many, many times in her years in London and the surrounding areas. She has no real opinon of NYC's system other than it takes us everywhere we want to go. The old time rolling stock is what I miss because at the time they were in use, NY was my home. Now, I go to the museum to see them. I haven't had any opportunity to ride any nostalgia trains yet, but I hope to correct that next year. You have travelled quite a bit, good for you!
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Old August 7th, 2008, 04:26 AM   #2679
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thats why the London underground has one of the best metro systems in the world also since i am a new yorker i have extreme fondness with the NYC Subway including the number 7 line since thats where i was raised at.

but anyways tubeman i heard that the London Underground is going to add an expansion or a new underground route i don't remember what it is but is it still going on and where will it go east of london or south of london?
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Old August 7th, 2008, 07:46 AM   #2680
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I'm not quite sure what those plans might be..... I'd be curious to hear more though. As far as I know, the main London rail projects going on are (or will be):

1) DLR extensions
2) Cross-rail
3) Northern Line unbundling
4) Some new Tube line in the west of London??

I'd be curious to hear about anything additional....
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