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Old August 26th, 2008, 07:48 PM   #2781
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That is great, Tubeman! What program are you using?
Humble Microsoft Office Visio, and then Universal Document Converter to turn it into PDFs.

I have to work on it zoomed in 2915% to get the detail, probably not the best programme, but it does the job and as they say I've started, so I'll finish!
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Old August 27th, 2008, 12:22 AM   #2782
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Question: how often are underground trains being cleaned and refurbished, on average?

It always amazes me that LU trains are so neat and clean compared to the puke-covered, graffiti-laden, window-scratched trains we have here in Rotterdam and Amsterdam. We can't even keep the raw materials in one part let alone have cushioned seats.

Do some lines suffer from more vandalism than others? Or are all services busy enough in the early and late hours so that social control actually works despite the fact there's plenty of disorderly scum? Or god forbid, CCTV might actually work.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 12:30 AM   #2783
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I'd imagine that the price has a lot to do with it. The Underground is rather expensive, and let's be honest here, most chavs are working class.

However, buses are cheaper and i've never really noticed them being anymore dirty than the Tube.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 12:42 AM   #2784
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And don't forget the young folk ride the bus for free, so that should only make them more prone to immature behaviour.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 11:22 AM   #2785
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Question: how often are underground trains being cleaned and refurbished, on average?

It always amazes me that LU trains are so neat and clean compared to the puke-covered, graffiti-laden, window-scratched trains we have here in Rotterdam and Amsterdam. We can't even keep the raw materials in one part let alone have cushioned seats.

Do some lines suffer from more vandalism than others? Or are all services busy enough in the early and late hours so that social control actually works despite the fact there's plenty of disorderly scum? Or god forbid, CCTV might actually work.
Trains are cleaned overnight, deep-cleaned weekly and constantly litter-picked during the day. The free newspapers which now abound are a real scourge and despite our best efforts some trains can end up looking like recycling bins after the peaks. Cleaners are equipped with body fluid kits (a white powder which soaks up vomit etc and allows it to be swept up), but if vomit ends up on the fabric seats the trains are immediately withdrawn and run to depot. I'm proud of the cleanliness of our trains, it's a pity that so many customers seem to think it's perfectly acceptable to drop litter within trains though.

Trains should run through a car wash at least every other day, but on some lines with remote sidings despite the timetable attempting to rotate their stabling to ensure this, they can go for a few days avoiding the car wash if they're 'reformed' (train number changed due to service disruption). I've noticed Piccadilly Line trains can suffer from this (lots of tunnel dust on outside), I guess if a train keeps on stabling at Arnos Grove, South Harrow or Acton Town and avoids the car washes at Oakwood or Northfields.

Graffiti isn't much of a problem anymore, the in-car CCTV seems to be a deterrent and the policy of immediately withdrawing trains for graffiti (i.e. they don't run displaying tags) has been a disincentive to bothering doing it.

Vandalism is a problem along some suburban sections where usership drops off outside of the peaks (e.g. District line between Barking and Upminster), but police operations in the Becontree / Dagenham area, including helicopter patrols, have reduced the problem (and the fact the refurbished D Stock now have CCTV has helped too). The Bakerloo north of Queen's Park used to be bad too, but now the stations are operated by LU rather than Network Rail and so staffing levels have increased and ticket barriers installed... This has made access to the line to people intent on vandalism harder.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 05:43 PM   #2786
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Considering i've probably posted in this thread more than anyone else (with the exception of you) i'm bound to get into more disagreements.
It's not quantity, it's quality or lack thereof... there are ways of disagreeing, you tone is a little too confrontational for this thread.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 07:58 PM   #2787
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In the past, i'd agree. However in this case I was giving an opinion and someone decided to twist it because they made assumptions.
I don't want this thread being ruined any further, but your response combined with your attitude in post #2771 on the previous page suggest to me you're being a little too rude to other forumers on this thread for my liking. This is my thread, not a flame-fest. Now, enough.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 08:01 PM   #2788
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Budgetary constraints

I do not work for the NY subway system. I would imagine I could find out the actual data on this, but I wanted to reply immediately after reading it. I recall reading and hearing that NY doesn't wash their units that often. But riding in them, it seems as if it depends of the line. They are managed in zones (I think) and there is no inuformity. Some are much cleaner than others. The new units are beautiful, but I don't know how long they'll stay that way. I've ridden the system quite a bit in the last several years and mostly, the insides are clean enough to sit in. The older ones with scratched windows usually have other condition issues. Looking at picture after picture of London's units, they are far superior in the cleanliness and department. NYC has always had budget issues. Whether when the union conract is due or the city needs the cash for something else. The subway system is the bastard child that gets the short end of the stick. But without it, they could not survive.
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Old August 27th, 2008, 10:11 PM   #2789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capzilla View Post
Question: how often are underground trains being cleaned and refurbished, on average?

It always amazes me that LU trains are so neat and clean compared to the puke-covered, graffiti-laden, window-scratched trains we have here in Rotterdam and Amsterdam. We can't even keep the raw materials in one part let alone have cushioned seats.

Do some lines suffer from more vandalism than others? Or are all services busy enough in the early and late hours so that social control actually works despite the fact there's plenty of disorderly scum? Or god forbid, CCTV might actually work.
Last time that I was in london (and it was almost 2 years ago) there was a progam in the local TV (BBC or sky news??) avbout a "dangerous terrorist" ... when in fact it was just a guy doing grafitty on the LUL .

But the law enformcent on the london metor was treating it as pure acts of terrorism ... or so it seamed.

Need any better explanation as to "how & why" trains/buses are so clean in the UK ??? they just don't have a middle term between "inocent" and "criminal" so it is harder to do anything that could be considered offensive since it imediately becames a crime ... specialy where it involves british "transport police" like in the "cleanness" of trains from graffity.

but nonetheless the "policy" of removing trains from regular operation as soon as a "tag" apears also seems to be a great responsable for their trains to apear "cleaner".
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Old August 28th, 2008, 03:34 AM   #2790
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oh so thats why the Victoria Line is well what it is today oh ok.

so tubeman i want to ask you something what is the most interesting Tube line and the most Boring Tube line there is that you know of?
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Old August 28th, 2008, 03:59 AM   #2791
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If any line is more boring than Waterloo and City, do we really want to know about it?

Most interesting has to be District because of the two stock types and logistical problems at Earl's Court making sure even TfL doesn't know where the next train is going until it's practically already on its way.
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Old August 28th, 2008, 12:17 PM   #2792
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If any line is more boring than Waterloo and City, do we really want to know about it?

Most interesting has to be District because of the two stock types and logistical problems at Earl's Court making sure even TfL doesn't know where the next train is going until it's practically already on its way.
I'd agree with those two, although I guess 'most interesting' is a toss-up between the District and Metropolitan. I guess the Metropolitan definitely won the prize when the East London and Hammermsith & City Lines were still considered a part of it... A 'single' metro line with 10 'ends' is pretty hard to comprehend (Shoreditch, New Cross, New Cross Gate, Barking, Hammermsith, Aldgate, Watford, Uxbridge, Chesham, Amersham). It also used steam traction for passenger trains until 1960, and still had numerous goods yards until the late 1960's, not to mention being the oldest 'metro' in the world.

But today yes I'm inclined to agree the District is more interesting: 6 'ends', including 4 western and 2 eastern termini radiating from Earl's Court, the 'Crewe' of London Underground. 2 crossings over the Thames (the only 2 on the LU network), 2 different stocks, serving some of the richest (e.g. Richmond, Kensington) and some of the poorest (e.g. Whitechapel, Bow) parts of the country. Running over NR to Richmond, NR stock moves between East Putney and Wimbledon, parallel running with NR all the way from Bow to Upminster, plus a wealth of history and variety of stations from all eras.
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Old August 28th, 2008, 12:17 PM   #2793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Last time that I was in london (and it was almost 2 years ago) there was a progam in the local TV (BBC or sky news??) avbout a "dangerous terrorist" ... when in fact it was just a guy doing grafitty on the LUL .

But the law enformcent on the london metor was treating it as pure acts of terrorism ... or so it seamed.

Need any better explanation as to "how & why" trains/buses are so clean in the UK ??? they just don't have a middle term between "inocent" and "criminal" so it is harder to do anything that could be considered offensive since it imediately becames a crime ... specialy where it involves british "transport police" like in the "cleanness" of trains from graffity.

but nonetheless the "policy" of removing trains from regular operation as soon as a "tag" apears also seems to be a great responsable for their trains to apear "cleaner".
AFAIK, trains are free of grafitti because they are not allowed in service if they are tagged extensively.

I've never heard a graffiti incident being treated as an act of terrorism...

Last edited by Tubeman; August 28th, 2008 at 12:36 PM.
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Old August 28th, 2008, 12:24 PM   #2794
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Originally Posted by hegneypl View Post
I do not work for the NY subway system. I would imagine I could find out the actual data on this, but I wanted to reply immediately after reading it. I recall reading and hearing that NY doesn't wash their units that often. But riding in them, it seems as if it depends of the line. They are managed in zones (I think) and there is no inuformity. Some are much cleaner than others. The new units are beautiful, but I don't know how long they'll stay that way. I've ridden the system quite a bit in the last several years and mostly, the insides are clean enough to sit in. The older ones with scratched windows usually have other condition issues. Looking at picture after picture of London's units, they are far superior in the cleanliness and department. NYC has always had budget issues. Whether when the union conract is due or the city needs the cash for something else. The subway system is the bastard child that gets the short end of the stick. But without it, they could not survive.
LU are answerable to the government ultimately and are held to task for failing to meet CSS scores (Customer Satisfaction Survey), and ambience is considered a major driver of the scores. Therefore we do take the cleanliness and general ambience of trains and stations very seriously. I also believe there is a lot to be said for a virtuous circle whereby the cleaner and brighter a station or train is, the less likely it is to be trashed... and conversely the crappier it is, the more likely people are to have no respect for it.

It's all thanks to a veritable army of litter pickers and cleaners patrolling by day and scrubbing trains and stations at night though, it doesn't just magically 'happen'. The ethos of London Underground, and I'll quote the MD on this, is that we'll never be the fastest, newest, most technologically advanced metro system... but we can be the best: and this is achieved through attention to detail, high staffing levels, cleanliness, good customer service and so forth.
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Old August 28th, 2008, 12:33 PM   #2795
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Last time that I was in london (and it was almost 2 years ago) there was a progam in the local TV (BBC or sky news??) avbout a "dangerous terrorist" ... when in fact it was just a guy doing grafitty on the LUL .

But the law enformcent on the london metor was treating it as pure acts of terrorism ... or so it seamed.

Need any better explanation as to "how & why" trains/buses are so clean in the UK ??? they just don't have a middle term between "inocent" and "criminal" so it is harder to do anything that could be considered offensive since it imediately becames a crime ... specialy where it involves british "transport police" like in the "cleanness" of trains from graffity.

but nonetheless the "policy" of removing trains from regular operation as soon as a "tag" apears also seems to be a great responsable for their trains to apear "cleaner".
You seem almost sympathetic to the graffiti 'artists' cause?

The amount of lost customer hours they cause through train withdrawals amounts to hundreds of thousands of pounds per year, not to mention costs of undoing the damage... probably millions in total, all passed on to the customer. Why should a handful of middle class wannabe gangstas have the right to impose such enormous costs on London and its commuters?

In the current climate any acts of trespass onto the LU network, espcially into depots at night, have to be treated gravely and with the same robustness as terrorists. Sure it might be little Johnny with a bag of spray paint one night, but it could easily be little Osama with a bag of semtex the next. If a graffiti 'artist' can gain access to trains to paint the sides, then a terrorist could gain access to plant a bomb under a seat.
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Old August 28th, 2008, 12:52 PM   #2796
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I always noticed that the LU seemed really well staffed. At peak hour there was almost always a guy on the platform making announcements and helping people get on the trains quickly.

And yes, very nice and clean.
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Old August 28th, 2008, 01:56 PM   #2797
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I always noticed that the LU seemed really well staffed. At peak hour there was almost always a guy on the platform making announcements and helping people get on the trains quickly.

And yes, very nice and clean.
Minimum staffing requirements in the peak at tunnel stations would generally stipulate one staff member (CSA) per platform and at least one for each gateline... so a station like Oxford Circus would probably need 10 or so CSAs on at any one time during the peaks, then add to that ticket office staff, Supervisors, Control room assistants, Duty Managers etc you're easily talking 20+ on at once. Multiply that across the day and account for meal breaks and you can appreciate how labour-intensive our operations are.
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Old August 28th, 2008, 02:42 PM   #2798
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Quote:
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Minimum staffing requirements in the peak at tunnel stations would generally stipulate one staff member (CSA) per platform and at least one for each gateline... so a station like Oxford Circus would probably need 10 or so CSAs on at any one time during the peaks, then add to that ticket office staff, Supervisors, Control room assistants, Duty Managers etc you're easily talking 20+ on at once. Multiply that across the day and account for meal breaks and you can appreciate how labour-intensive our operations are.
How much staff does LU have, and how many of them are based at stations? I'm not sure if you can actually answer these questions but it is interesting.
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Old August 28th, 2008, 03:07 PM   #2799
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Tubeman, why is The Central Line so hot compared to all the other deep level lines? Bank station in particular.
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Old August 28th, 2008, 03:20 PM   #2800
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Maybe this question has been asked before....but....

Which line has the fastest trains and what speed do they go at?

The Central line feels pretty fast to me and the Circle line always seems snail-like.
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