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Old September 3rd, 2008, 11:14 PM   #2821
U Thant
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Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
any conversion of kinetic into electrical energy will likely produce heat I suppose.
With conventional friction brakes, all the kinetic energy of the train is converted to heat. With rheostatic brakes, the kinetic energy is converted into some heat in the motors and the rest of into electrical energy, which is converted into heat by banks of resistors mounted on the train. Since the amount of kinetic energy to be dissipated is the same, the total amount of heat produced is exactly the same as for friction brakes. With regenerative braking, the electricity that would have been released as head is instead diverted into the track. Ergo regenerative braking causes each train to release less heat.

The amount of heat produced is the same as the kinetic energy of the train [ignoring regenerative braking], so the simple answer is that the extra heat comes from the higher speed the trains run at, and because of their extra weight (I'm assuming they're heavier). The trains will also produce more heat while accelerating, and from friction with air, and so on.
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Old September 5th, 2008, 08:42 PM   #2822
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Originally Posted by U Thant View Post
With conventional friction brakes, all the kinetic energy of the train is converted to heat. With rheostatic brakes, the kinetic energy is converted into some heat in the motors and the rest of into electrical energy, which is converted into heat by banks of resistors mounted on the train. Since the amount of kinetic energy to be dissipated is the same, the total amount of heat produced is exactly the same as for friction brakes. With regenerative braking, the electricity that would have been released as head is instead diverted into the track. Ergo regenerative braking causes each train to release less heat.

The amount of heat produced is the same as the kinetic energy of the train [ignoring regenerative braking], so the simple answer is that the extra heat comes from the higher speed the trains run at, and because of their extra weight (I'm assuming they're heavier). The trains will also produce more heat while accelerating, and from friction with air, and so on.
Of course you're right... I can only explain the higher temperatures by the aggressive acceleration / braking of the Central Line. I'd have thought the 1992 Stock are lighter than their 1962 Stock predescessors.

I used to drive ex-Central Line 1962 stock trains on the Northern Line (they were pretty much interchangeable with the 1959 stock), and they were noticeably heavier than the 1972 MkI stock (you can judge from the braking performance).
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Old September 5th, 2008, 11:30 PM   #2823
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I'm curious as to whether running the tube 24 hours a day has been considered, like New York does.
London has a HUGE bus network in adition to runing the LU ... they don't seem to need a 24/7 metro open over there.
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Old September 5th, 2008, 11:31 PM   #2824
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Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
People treat cleaner things with more respect.

TFL's policy can be extreme sometimes on cleanliness. Nothing ****s me off more than someone getting sick on the night bus and it being taken out of service. But is does the trick. A constant army of cleaners on stations and trains. Regular 'deep cleans' for trains and buses themselves.

Probably an EU elf and safety thing really... but I'll let LU take credit for it.
1st look at this picture:


British train after arriving in london on a Glasgow-London trip ... nobody "cleans" a train like the british do.

In inverness (to our "continentals" astonishment) they managed to arrive , empty (from passengers) , turn (the drivers), clean , re.book(reserved seats) and fill up (with the next batch of comuters and the BAR cart) a train in less than 5 minutes.

On the other hand LU feels HOT but extremely CLEAN everywhere ...
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old September 6th, 2008, 12:40 AM   #2825
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Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
You seem almost sympathetic to the graffiti 'artists' cause?

The amount of lost customer hours they cause through train withdrawals amounts to hundreds of thousands of pounds per year, not to mention costs of undoing the damage... probably millions in total, all passed on to the customer. Why should a handful of middle class wannabe gangstas have the right to impose such enormous costs on London and its commuters?

In the current climate any acts of trespass onto the LU network, espcially into depots at night, have to be treated gravely and with the same robustness as terrorists. Sure it might be little Johnny with a bag of spray paint one night, but it could easily be little Osama with a bag of semtex the next. If a graffiti 'artist' can gain access to trains to paint the sides, then a terrorist could gain access to plant a bomb under a seat.


Just read this now ... I simply was "amused" by the way BBC was portraying the image of the "vilan" ... they basicaly made it seem as if Osama and the guy were "mates"/"brothers" ... quite shocking actualy if one isn't used to the ways british media works.

But don't just take my word for it:

http://press.homeoffice.gov.uk/press...Tagg?version=1

Quote:
Government Targets Graffiti Taggers

20 November 2003

An offensive against unsightly and expensive graffiti tags was launched today by the Government as part of its drive to tackle the anti-social behaviour which can blight communities.

The campaign will offer a £500 reward to those prepared to name the most prolific ‘taggers’. It will be promoted with a poster campaign highlighting the unsightly signatures which graffiti offenders have left on rail and Underground carriages, bridges, buildings and embankments in London, Manchester and Liverpool.

The 'Name that tag' campaign will be backed by clean-ups for the areas worst affected and pilots of tough news measures to ensure graffiti is removed.

The campaign spearheads a new programme of action which forms the 'Together' campaign, announced last month as part of the Government’s action plan on anti-social behaviour. Over the coming months 'Together' will roll-out across the country in a series of targeted work tackling abandoned cars, graffiti, begging and nuisance neighbours.
Sidenotice: "graffity" and tag's are just as much "artistic" as anything else ... the problem is when instead of painting an amasing work of art people insist in learning to spel their name in other peoples property ... it surely will be amasing when the "trend" passes from public walls and transport to "top of the chart" automobiles and such ...

Wouldn't it be amasing to buy a nw BMW ferrary or Bugatti and see it full of paint ?
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old September 6th, 2008, 12:57 PM   #2826
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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
1st look at this picture:


British train after arriving in london on a Glasgow-London trip ... nobody "cleans" a train like the british do.

In inverness (to our "continentals" astonishment) they managed to arrive , empty (from passengers) , turn (the drivers), clean , re.book(reserved seats) and fill up (with the next batch of comuters and the BAR cart) a train in less than 5 minutes.

On the other hand LU feels HOT but extremely CLEAN everywhere ...
It's a little unfair to post that photo as evidence of lack of cleanliness though: it's a long distance train, the same group would have been sat at that table for several hours (evidently having a good time), the bins are pretty small, and it all would have been picked up by cleaners before the train departed on its return trip. It's not as if the next set of passengers would have had to have sat down at that table covered in cans. It's like a plane just after its landed.
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Old September 6th, 2008, 01:03 PM   #2827
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Just read this now ... I simply was "amused" by the way BBC was portraying the image of the "vilan" ... they basicaly made it seem as if Osama and the guy were "mates"/"brothers" ... quite shocking actualy if one isn't used to the ways british media works.

But don't just take my word for it:

http://press.homeoffice.gov.uk/press...Tagg?version=1
But there's not a single mention of 'terrorism' in that article, so I don't get your earlier point. Seems like pretty straightforward unsensational reporting to me. Graffiti costs Train operating companies, London Underground and Network Rail millions of pounds per year to make good, which is ultimately paid for by every single user of the transport network. Why are you so forgiving?

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Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
Sidenotice: "graffity" and tag's are just as much "artistic" as anything else ... the problem is when instead of painting an amasing work of art people insist in learning to spel their name in other peoples property ... it surely will be amasing when the "trend" passes from public walls and transport to "top of the chart" automobiles and such ...

Wouldn't it be amasing to buy a nw BMW ferrary or Bugatti and see it full of paint ?
Tags very rarey are artistic, especially when they're etched onto train and bus windows. 'Pieces' can be fantastic, but only in the right locations. The fact is due to being hurried / dark / cold / whatever, the few pieces that do appear on trains these days are crap.
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Old September 6th, 2008, 01:11 PM   #2828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
1st look at this picture:


British train after arriving in london on a Glasgow-London trip ... nobody "cleans" a train like the british do.

In inverness (to our "continentals" astonishment) they managed to arrive , empty (from passengers) , turn (the drivers), clean , re.book(reserved seats) and fill up (with the next batch of comuters and the BAR cart) a train in less than 5 minutes.

On the other hand LU feels HOT but extremely CLEAN everywhere ...
I'm confused - is this a good or bad thing? All long distance trains get in to a mess - nothing like treating them 'like home' if you're sitting in the same places for hours...

but local public transport in London is constantly kept clean - with exceptions of course.. even the fabric on seats are designed to look "cleaner" with more use.
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Old September 6th, 2008, 05:58 PM   #2829
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotavento View Post
1st look at this picture:


British train after arriving in london on a Glasgow-London trip ... nobody "cleans" a train like the british do.

In inverness (to our "continentals" astonishment) they managed to arrive , empty (from passengers) , turn (the drivers), clean , re.book(reserved seats) and fill up (with the next batch of comuters and the BAR cart) a train in less than 5 minutes.

On the other hand LU feels HOT but extremely CLEAN everywhere ...
Whilst essentially I agree with most of what you say, your anti UK propaganda is going a bit too far.

I do agree that our trains are pretty dirty compared with some German ones,but theres not much in it! In comparison, those italian trains were very dirty, altho i quite liked the trains that were completely 100% grafiti-ed over.
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Old September 6th, 2008, 10:28 PM   #2830
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It's a little unfair to post that photo as evidence of lack of cleanliness though: it's a long distance train, the same group would have been sat at that table for several hours (evidently having a good time), the bins are pretty small, and it all would have been picked up by cleaners before the train departed on its return trip. It's not as if the next set of passengers would have had to have sat down at that table covered in cans. It's like a plane just after its landed.
So you are rampaging on the sight of that picture ... but never even READ the portion of my message (that you even included in your quote) ???

Quote:
In inverness (to our "continentals" astonishment) they managed to arrive , empty (from passengers) , turn (the drivers), clean , re.book(reserved seats) and fill up (with the next batch of comuters and the BAR cart) a train in less than 5 minutes
It's astonishing the large quantities of pure CRAP you british ASSUME others are throwing at you ... when they are not.

There is no "lack of cleanliness" there ... pure eficiency at cleaning since that particular train (a mallard set from "now defunct" GNER) was imediately invaded by a dozen cleaning teams as soon as we arrived.

And youngsters in the UK can be very messy indeed ... it's the only place where I've seen 15 minute stops in intercity trains to "refill" the beer stockpiles in the middle of the course.

Glasgow-London(Virgin) = 4h + 15 minutes to resupply (and 15 aditional minutes for smokers at Preston)
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old September 6th, 2008, 10:34 PM   #2831
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But there's not a single mention of 'terrorism' in that article, so I don't get your earlier point. Seems like pretty straightforward unsensational reporting to me. Graffiti costs Train operating companies, London Underground and Network Rail millions of pounds per year to make good, which is ultimately paid for by every single user of the transport network. Why are you so forgiving?

Tags very rarey are artistic, especially when they're etched onto train and bus windows. 'Pieces' can be fantastic, but only in the right locations. The fact is due to being hurried / dark / cold / whatever, the few pieces that do appear on trains these days are crap.
That "article" is not an "article" ... it's an official home office comunication on the subject ... that should give you an indication of the seriousness in wich the matter is treated.

But I would pay to find the footage of that particular documentary ... it was priceless indeed.

Oh ... and TAGS suck!!
for each "good" graffity artist there are millions of crappy ones.
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"O País perdeu a inteligência e a consciência moral. Ninguém se respeita nem crê na honestidade dos homens públicos. O povo está na miséria. Os serviços públicos vão abandonados. A mocidade arrasta-se das mesas das secretarias para as mesas dos cafés. A ruína económica cresce o comércio definha, a indústria enfraquece. O salário diminui. O Estado é considerado um ladrão e tratado como um inimigo.
Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old September 6th, 2008, 10:40 PM   #2832
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Originally Posted by sarflonlad View Post
I'm confused - is this a good or bad thing? All long distance trains get in to a mess - nothing like treating them 'like home' if you're sitting in the same places for hours...

but local public transport in London is constantly kept clean - with exceptions of course.. even the fabric on seats are designed to look "cleaner" with more use.
Trains and buses ARE "clean" ... that's the point ... people (passengers) can make a complete mess of them (as seen on the picture .. .wich by the way just happened to be sitting around in my imageshack acount since it was taken back in 2005) but nonetheless the cleaning services MANAGE to keep them clean for the next ride as soon as possible.

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Originally Posted by Republica View Post
Whilst essentially I agree with most of what you say, your anti UK propaganda is going a bit too far.

I do agree that our trains are pretty dirty compared with some German ones,but theres not much in it! In comparison, those italian trains were very dirty, altho i quite liked the trains that were completely 100% grafiti-ed over.
Are you PARANOID or something like that ???

Where do you see propaganda in my posts ???

Discussing how things are done in the UK is being "anti UK" nowadays ???

then consider yourself lucky that i didn't post any shots of the day when I was in Newcasttle (metro closed with police rushing drunks , rioting , vomiting , drinking , etc and police escorting "passengers" to the train to manchester) ... it seemed just the tipical drunk adolescent behaviour to me ...

The point is ... trains in the UK are "clean" ... elsewhere you see complete pieces of "sh**" in rails (italian ones seem to be the worst) ... in the UK you only get a large pile of emty cans , lots of paper cofee/tea cups and an ocasional vomit on the Underground/Comuter ... wich are cleaned at the next available spot.
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old September 7th, 2008, 12:30 PM   #2833
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Your attitude is starting to grate on me, and I feel you're diverting my thread off-topic... If you haven't got any sensible questions to ask, then kindly be quiet.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 02:04 AM   #2834
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Are any future tube lines planned? (obviously excluding Crossrail, which would be more National Rail-like).

Or further extensions of existing lines? I heard something about when the Northern Line gets split into 2, one of the branches could be continued into the Southeast more.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 09:48 AM   #2835
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Are any future tube lines planned? (obviously excluding Crossrail, which would be more National Rail-like).

Or further extensions of existing lines? I heard something about when the Northern Line gets split into 2, one of the branches could be continued into the Southeast more.
The Northern line split is an operational issue and requires no new lines to be built for it to happen.

That being said there is talk of using the split to build an extension towards the Battersea area.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 11:33 AM   #2836
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Is there any plan of expanding Oyster card system? I mean stuff like Octopus or Suica, in which you can have "tickets" on mobile phones, can shop outside tube stations and usable on regional trains outside London Underground?
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Old September 8th, 2008, 03:24 PM   #2837
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Is there any plan of expanding Oyster card system? I mean stuff like Octopus or Suica, in which you can have "tickets" on mobile phones, can shop outside tube stations and usable on regional trains outside London Underground?
Tickets on mobile phones - there's been a trial and I think we'll see more of that soon. I believe there are also Oyster watches being made.
On other trains outside LU - it's already installed on quite a few stretches of National Rail, and will work on all national rail next year.
- Shopping outside tube stations - not exactly, but Barclays has issued a card that is an Oyster card, a credit card and a cashless "paywave" card all in one, so that's one card you can use for everything.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 04:11 PM   #2838
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Any updates on the works being undertaken at present on various sections of the TfL Overground network?
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Old September 9th, 2008, 01:04 AM   #2839
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Does the Kensington - Olympia shuttle have any purpose other than carrying passengers? By which I mean, is it useful for staff training, or stock movements or something, because I can't believe that in this day and age a three station shuttle is of any use any more? Especially since it is not marked on the map or anything. Wouldn't it be easier just to wipe it out and free up some space at Earl's Court?
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Old September 9th, 2008, 01:29 AM   #2840
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What are the turquoise numbers that are seen after leaving stations used for?
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