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Old September 9th, 2008, 01:52 AM   #2841
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Originally Posted by CityGent View Post
What are the turquoise numbers that are seen after leaving stations used for?
It's if someone pulls the emergency alarm as the train departs the station the driver will know how many cars are still in the station, and whether or not they should stop or continue to the next station... I think.
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Old September 9th, 2008, 01:02 PM   #2842
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Originally Posted by jetsetwilly View Post
Does the Kensington - Olympia shuttle have any purpose other than carrying passengers? By which I mean, is it useful for staff training, or stock movements or something, because I can't believe that in this day and age a three station shuttle is of any use any more? Especially since it is not marked on the map or anything. Wouldn't it be easier just to wipe it out and free up some space at Earl's Court?
The shuttle service between High St Kensington and Olympia used to be part of a much larger service, in times gone by the station used to be a part of the metropolitan line and was a terminal station.

Olympia itself used to be the centre of number of routes on the West London line and part of NR Cross Country routes.

Earl's Court will always be busy and overcrowded given the number of services that run through it - the station itself was built when the before the district line grew to be so large, in the past more services used to use the station. Until 1986 the shuttle service was only used when exhibitions were taking place at Olympia, when it became full time service.

Last edited by zfreeman; September 9th, 2008 at 01:18 PM.
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Old September 9th, 2008, 05:48 PM   #2843
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salutations tubeman, saw you on sky 3 the other week randomly after flicking channels during the olympics, that woman driver what a dope...

anyways on to the important business, calling on your expertese, to plug a few more gaps in my tube knowledge

-your an inside man, as in you work in the transport industry and are fairly high up, do you think that public transport is best in public or private hands, in terms of effiency and providing the best possible public service, and which do you think is more important?

-When crossrail is built there is gonna be a premium on travel to heathrow, there already is on heathrow connect/express, why is this? i personally think it is a joke and a disgrace that they say they want a modal shift to public transport but that put a premium on travel, there is no premium on travel to gatwick or stanstead, do you think its likely this can ever be lifted because it is surely not in the public interest, and/or fair?

-when a franchise changes operator on the NR network the new firm waste millions on re branding the trains, do you not think it would be of benefit, if the powers that be stipulate a brand name, logo and livery for each franchise, encoporating the former BR logo, and whoever runs the railways have to stick to it, surely it would save money and help give the impression of greater integration?

-looking at the history of the beechings axe 1 and 2, i was suprised to see, that he wanted only trunk routes running, do you think this man was crazy?

-TFL's corporate branding stretches to everything excpet the buses themselves, do you think the mare should push for a london bus livery instead of just plane red buses, ie the TFL roundel replaces the companys brand name, as i personally don't think private companys need to adveritse externally who runs the service, it would also enhance the intergration factor?

-you mentioned previously a 24 hour tube at weekends, which i like the idea of, firstly do you reckon it would be possible to provide a 24 tube 7 days a week on a single track, with passing loops at certain stations, alternating which side is used daily so maintainance can take place, surely a 20-30 minutes service could be safely and efficiently provied?

-on a related point route 75 which ran from lewisham to croydon allowed me to go out in croydon at weekends and still get back to my area with out goin into central london (all being it only elephant), they withdrew it coz of weeknight patronage although they said weekend patronage was what was required, why couldn't they just run a 24 hour weekend service, branded as weekend 24, and why can't they introduce weekend only night buses, the WN or W network, coz there are loads of areas Romford/Bromley which could do with night services friday and saturday night and no other time, do you know if this has ever been considered?

-is crossrail value for money? simple question really, i tend to disagree, the benefits it is 'providing' can be done so with chelney and a few minor extensions to other lines ie chelney at hackney couldve be diverted to onto the north london line to the shenfield line, and the wimbledon branch, freeing up capacity to extend the district to heathrow for ealing broadway, the jubilee could serve woolwich and abbey wood, but obviously i'm dreaming and TFL no better, but what do you think?

-why is it that madrid can spend millions on increasing there metro and we can't?

-finally, i dunno if this has been asked more, but how bad do you think boris will be for london's public transport, in terms of moving forward? he's already quashed the cross river tram, and the thames gateway bridge, which bexley residents of which i'm one say will increase traffic, i live in the bexley part of thamesmead and i'd rather a direct crossing to east london and more traffic than none at all, what can we do about NIMBYS, just ignore them?

Sorry for the long ranty style posts no doubt with typos, once i get going i cna't stop, cheers for the answers in advance, i know for a fact that they'll ve good being a fellow gooner we aren't shoddy!
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Old September 9th, 2008, 06:03 PM   #2844
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oh yeah sorry forgot this, just a quick question about ibus and the announcements on tubes, basically it's abotu pronunciation, should they not use the local pronunciations of places

for example was on the 401 bus to thamesmead and it pronounced the bedonwell road as it reads whereas its pronounced beedonwell, i know this as the local primary is named after the area and i nearly went there way back in the 90s, anways everyone a group of people on the bus were like laughing at the mis pronunciation, tbf it's not major, but i'm sure one it annoys people when there local area isn't pronounced correctly, and as its supposedly for the blind, surely a mis pronunciation is a hiderence not a help, maybe before they did it they shouldve asked locals how things are pronounced, locally, as this happened on a number of stops.

my main gripe is about the word greenwich, pronounced by non south east londoners/north west kentish and posh people as GRENITCH, when everyone locally from PEckham to gravesend calls it GRINITCH, i know for a fact this irritates a hell of alot of people in my area, and until recently we didnt have to put up with the corruption, but now ibus is about when ever i get on certain routes i hear it whenever the bus stops?

basically who do you contact about this, as it is soemthing that annoys me beyond belief outsiders not understand locals!
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Old September 9th, 2008, 07:58 PM   #2845
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oh yeah sorry tubeman one more question, they are redeveloping waterloo apparently on the lines of st pancras international by lowering the concourse and having escalators up to platform level, surely that opens up the possiblility of running through trains from waterloo east along the chord that was built, and with airtrack being built you could have direct services from south east london to heathrow and another cross london service, what do you think?
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Old September 9th, 2008, 11:48 PM   #2846
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Originally Posted by jarbury View Post
Are any future tube lines planned? (obviously excluding Crossrail, which would be more National Rail-like).

Or further extensions of existing lines? I heard something about when the Northern Line gets split into 2, one of the branches could be continued into the Southeast more.
In my perceived order of likelihood:

1) Metropolitan Line to Watford Junction

Diversion of the existing Watford branch from a point between Croxley and Watford over the abandoned BR Croxley Green Branch to Watford Junction

2) Bakerloo Line to Watford Junction

Re-establishment of the Bakerloo service to Watford Junction, taking over the NR DC service

3) Bakerloo Line to Hayes

Extension from Elephant & Castle to Lewisham via Camberwell & Peckham, thence to Hayes (Kent)

4) Southern extension of a split northern Line from Kennington

Only #1 and #2 are at all likely really
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Old September 9th, 2008, 11:50 PM   #2847
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It would be interesting to know how much of the beeching axe lines are still possible to re open IE. the route hasnt been built on. What a waste of infrastructure development. I'd hope most of them were safeguarded.
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Old September 9th, 2008, 11:55 PM   #2848
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Originally Posted by sweek View Post
Tickets on mobile phones - there's been a trial and I think we'll see more of that soon. I believe there are also Oyster watches being made.
On other trains outside LU - it's already installed on quite a few stretches of National Rail, and will work on all national rail next year.
- Shopping outside tube stations - not exactly, but Barclays has issued a card that is an Oyster card, a credit card and a cashless "paywave" card all in one, so that's one card you can use for everything.
Yes, Oyster watches have already been trialled on some staff, and an Oyster credit card has been introduced. I believe Oyster mobiles are likely for a full-scale release too. SWT have adopted Oyster (along with LOROL or course), and I'd expect it to become standard for all commuter rail in London if not the entire NR network eventually.
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Old September 9th, 2008, 11:56 PM   #2849
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Originally Posted by MelbourneCity View Post
Any updates on the works being undertaken at present on various sections of the TfL Overground network?

All the main bits of engineering have been carried out for the east London Line extentions, i.e. major bridges at New Cross gate, Bishopsgate viaduct and Shoreditch High street. The new terminal platforms 12a and 12b are under construction at Stratford Regional. Other than that there isn't much left to do other than re-laying track between Dalston and Hoxton and new track along the other sections.
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Old September 10th, 2008, 12:04 AM   #2850
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Originally Posted by jetsetwilly View Post
Does the Kensington - Olympia shuttle have any purpose other than carrying passengers? By which I mean, is it useful for staff training, or stock movements or something, because I can't believe that in this day and age a three station shuttle is of any use any more? Especially since it is not marked on the map or anything. Wouldn't it be easier just to wipe it out and free up some space at Earl's Court?
It's used as a punishment for District Line drivers who have been naughty

I have not so fond memories of doing 4 hour stints of 'Olympias', you'd do 8 'rounders' (i.e. complete circuits) of the High Street Ken - Olympia run in that time. The only good thing was the amount of idle time at the termini, not so bad on a sunny day with a good book.

It's a well patronised run actually, so for that reason alone justifies its existence. Olympia is also used as a head shunt for engineering trains leaving Lillie Bridge depot, allowing direct access to the eastbound route toward the City whereas the other exit route from the depot is the spur of track which diverges immediately east of West Kensington station and disappears under the A4 flyover, this 'points' west and any shunting on the eastbound track would delay the service too much.

It is most definitely marked on the map too!
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Old September 10th, 2008, 12:18 AM   #2851
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What are the turquoise numbers that are seen after leaving stations used for?
They're 'Countup Markers', each number marks each car's length from the platform, i.e. when the cab reaches the '5' then the train is 5 cars out of the platform. Basically, if a driver loses the 'Pilot light' (the light which confirms the doors are closed), or has a Passenger Alarm activated whilst still within 'Platform Limits' (i.e. part of the train is still in the platform), then they are obliged to try to stop before reaching the actual 'Platform Limits' and to go back and investigate.

This is because a passenger alarm could have been activated because someone was being dragged or had fallen between the cars, so obviously you want the train stopped.

Originally there was simply a black exclamation mark on a white plate to mark 'Platform Limits' a train's length from the platform headwall, but this was deemed inadequate because on a curved departure from a platform a driver could very easily lose the Pilot light or receive a Passenger Alarm and be unsure whether they'd passed Platform Limits or not. The logic of the 'Countup markers' is that one should always be visible wherever you stop within Platform Limits because they're spaced a car's length apart. It doesn't really matter whether you're 1 car out or 5 cars out, but it is vital for the driver to know if they're still within Platform Limits or not.

If a driver receives a passenger alarm whilst accelerating past the 5 car marker and can't stop in time, then they just carry on the the next station.
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Old September 10th, 2008, 12:25 AM   #2852
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The shuttle service between High St Kensington and Olympia used to be part of a much larger service, in times gone by the station used to be a part of the metropolitan line and was a terminal station.

Olympia itself used to be the centre of number of routes on the West London line and part of NR Cross Country routes.

Earl's Court will always be busy and overcrowded given the number of services that run through it - the station itself was built when the before the district line grew to be so large, in the past more services used to use the station. Until 1986 the shuttle service was only used when exhibitions were taking place at Olympia, when it became full time service.
True, at one point there were numerous services using the West London Line, one being the 'Middle Circle', which was the same as the Circle Line except it ran via Latimer Road, Uxbridge Road (soon to be the new Shepherd's Bush station), Kensington Olympia (or rather Addison Rd, as it was then known), and Earl's Court. The Latimer Rd - Uxbridge Rd spur closed in 1940, and was later obliterated by the West Cross Route A41(M). There was also a London & North-Western Railway electric service from Willesden Junction to Earl's Court.
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Old September 10th, 2008, 12:51 AM   #2853
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On lines other than the Victoria (which uses ATO as far as I know), is it the driver who has to make the train stop at the exact right point of the platform? If this is the case, then are they assisted on the new parts of the Jubilee Line so that the doors line up perfectly with the platform screen doors?

Are they just really really good at this, or is there some sort of automated brake that stops them in exactly the right place?
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Old September 10th, 2008, 12:52 AM   #2854
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salutations tubeman, saw you on sky 3 the other week randomly after flicking channels during the olympics, that woman driver what a dope...
Agreed "Planet Miranda"... For ****s sakes!

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
anyways on to the important business, calling on your expertese, to plug a few more gaps in my tube knowledge

-your an inside man, as in you work in the transport industry and are fairly high up, do you think that public transport is best in public or private hands, in terms of effiency and providing the best possible public service, and which do you think is more important?
That's a tricky one actually... The best efficiency is theoretically provided by private sector, but I personally don't feel that private sector ethos (i.e. profit) can coexist with public service (i.e. providing a decent service 20 hours a day), simply because for much of the day for much of LU's route mileage the service are unprofitable (e.g. the empty trains running on the east end of the District Line every 4 minutes all evening). If it were purely private, services would be cut back to the extent it would no longer be 'turn up and go', and be more akin to commuter rail... in turn hitting ridership.

On the other hand purely public sector concerns can potentially turn into horrific wasteful union-ravaged lumbering beasts due to a monopoly and absence of market forces.

I think trying to instil a private sector ethos of excellent customer service, efficiency, and generating new business into the public sector is the best way forward, and this is what LU are achieveing with a lot of success in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-When crossrail is built there is gonna be a premium on travel to heathrow, there already is on heathrow connect/express, why is this? i personally think it is a joke and a disgrace that they say they want a modal shift to public transport but that put a premium on travel, there is no premium on travel to gatwick or stanstead, do you think its likely this can ever be lifted because it is surely not in the public interest, and/or fair?
I assume it's because BAA paid for the HEX branch and want their share of the profits of any competitor service to the HEX. Classic case of Private involvement in a traditonally public realm causing conflict and dare I say it profiteering.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-when a franchise changes operator on the NR network the new firm waste millions on re branding the trains, do you not think it would be of benefit, if the powers that be stipulate a brand name, logo and livery for each franchise, encoporating the former BR logo, and whoever runs the railways have to stick to it, surely it would save money and help give the impression of greater integration?
Similar issue I guess... If you involve private finance in what should be a public sector affair, don't be surprised if they put re-branding and image ahead of providing a good service. A new paint job and transfers are much cheaper than new trains.

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-looking at the history of the beechings axe 1 and 2, i was suprised to see, that he wanted only trunk routes running, do you think this man was crazy?
With hindsight, yes... But I guess at the time it really did look like cars were the future and if the growth of the automobile at that time was extrapolated then it spelt the death knell for all but the fastest and most direct rail routes. Fortunately he was proven to have been too extreme and some routes have re-opened, but the fact remains that at that point in history some rationalisation was very much necessary... don't forget the wholesale closures coincided with a lot of investment in the remaining network, such as electrification.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-TFL's corporate branding stretches to everything excpet the buses themselves, do you think the mare should push for a london bus livery instead of just plane red buses, ie the TFL roundel replaces the companys brand name, as i personally don't think private companys need to adveritse externally who runs the service, it would also enhance the intergration factor?
Bit unsure about this: the roundel is very much a part of the bus branding... and the red livery is pretty much non-negotiable I think. Any departure would be very unpopular. The individual company names are noticeable, but are limited to a certain % of coverage to maintain the predominantly red livery.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-you mentioned previously a 24 hour tube at weekends, which i like the idea of, firstly do you reckon it would be possible to provide a 24 tube 7 days a week on a single track, with passing loops at certain stations, alternating which side is used daily so maintainance can take place, surely a 20-30 minutes service could be safely and efficiently provied?
For reasons I've stated recently in this thread, I'm personally opposed to any overnight services. Passing loops and single line working would not really be possible as they'd be very expensive and wouldn't allow a frequent enough service to be safe / worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-on a related point route 75 which ran from lewisham to croydon allowed me to go out in croydon at weekends and still get back to my area with out goin into central london (all being it only elephant), they withdrew it coz of weeknight patronage although they said weekend patronage was what was required, why couldn't they just run a 24 hour weekend service, branded as weekend 24, and why can't they introduce weekend only night buses, the WN or W network, coz there are loads of areas Romford/Bromley which could do with night services friday and saturday night and no other time, do you know if this has ever been considered?
I honestly don't know about how potential for nightbus routes are decided upon... I guess the only way is to simply experiment with new routes and then scrap them if they are underutilised.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-is crossrail value for money? simple question really, i tend to disagree, the benefits it is 'providing' can be done so with chelney and a few minor extensions to other lines ie chelney at hackney couldve be diverted to onto the north london line to the shenfield line, and the wimbledon branch, freeing up capacity to extend the district to heathrow for ealing broadway, the jubilee could serve woolwich and abbey wood, but obviously i'm dreaming and TFL no better, but what do you think?
Personally I think not, it seems like an enormous amount of money really. I think the capacity enhancements the same money could provide to the existing network would be of much more benefit.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-why is it that madrid can spend millions on increasing there metro and we can't?
Dunno where their funding comes from... EU? Or maybe the Spanish government have deeper pockets.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-finally, i dunno if this has been asked more, but how bad do you think boris will be for london's public transport, in terms of moving forward? he's already quashed the cross river tram, and the thames gateway bridge, which bexley residents of which i'm one say will increase traffic, i live in the bexley part of thamesmead and i'd rather a direct crossing to east london and more traffic than none at all, what can we do about NIMBYS, just ignore them?

Sorry for the long ranty style posts no doubt with typos, once i get going i cna't stop, cheers for the answers in advance, i know for a fact that they'll ve good being a fellow gooner we aren't shoddy!
Jury's out for me with Boris... He has already stopped the ticket office closures, which can be seen as a pretty positive statement of intent, or possibly just a Trade union sweetener.
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Old September 10th, 2008, 12:54 AM   #2855
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oh yeah sorry forgot this, just a quick question about ibus and the announcements on tubes, basically it's abotu pronunciation, should they not use the local pronunciations of places

for example was on the 401 bus to thamesmead and it pronounced the bedonwell road as it reads whereas its pronounced beedonwell, i know this as the local primary is named after the area and i nearly went there way back in the 90s, anways everyone a group of people on the bus were like laughing at the mis pronunciation, tbf it's not major, but i'm sure one it annoys people when there local area isn't pronounced correctly, and as its supposedly for the blind, surely a mis pronunciation is a hiderence not a help, maybe before they did it they shouldve asked locals how things are pronounced, locally, as this happened on a number of stops.

my main gripe is about the word greenwich, pronounced by non south east londoners/north west kentish and posh people as GRENITCH, when everyone locally from PEckham to gravesend calls it GRINITCH, i know for a fact this irritates a hell of alot of people in my area, and until recently we didnt have to put up with the corruption, but now ibus is about when ever i get on certain routes i hear it whenever the bus stops?

basically who do you contact about this, as it is soemthing that annoys me beyond belief outsiders not understand locals!
Funny you should mention this, I could swear the 38 and 73 buses go to 'Victorian' according to the announcemnts I heard today.

Just feed it back via the TFL website I guess.
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Old September 10th, 2008, 12:57 AM   #2856
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oh yeah sorry tubeman one more question, they are redeveloping waterloo apparently on the lines of st pancras international by lowering the concourse and having escalators up to platform level, surely that opens up the possiblility of running through trains from waterloo east along the chord that was built, and with airtrack being built you could have direct services from south east london to heathrow and another cross london service, what do you think?

I didn't know that this was proposed for the Waterloo redevelopment... that's interesting. That old chord would be useful for a Crossrail-type service hugging the Thames' south bank, and the bridge is certainly still intact so it's very much possible. I'd like to see it re-opened, but I guess the only problem is it would be potentially quite slow due to the bottlenecks in the Waterloo / London Bridge areas which might limit its usefulness.
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Old September 10th, 2008, 01:00 AM   #2857
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It would be interesting to know how much of the beeching axe lines are still possible to re open IE. the route hasnt been built on. What a waste of infrastructure development. I'd hope most of them were safeguarded.
Much has been used for housing / by-passes etc... certainly if any trackbeds are still intact, it's more due to luck than any judgement. Pretty much any re-openings have been of former passenger lines reduced to freight by Beeching (e.g. Nottingham - Worksop via Mansfield) which were then restored to passenger.
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Old September 10th, 2008, 01:02 AM   #2858
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On lines other than the Victoria (which uses ATO as far as I know), is it the driver who has to make the train stop at the exact right point of the platform? If this is the case, then are they assisted on the new parts of the Jubilee Line so that the doors line up perfectly with the platform screen doors?

Are they just really really good at this, or is there some sort of automated brake that stops them in exactly the right place?
Pure driver aptitude, no assistance. There is a little margin for error, but not much... maybe a foot each way at best.
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Old September 10th, 2008, 01:05 AM   #2859
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West Cross Route A41(M). There was also a London & North-Western Railway electric service from Willesden Junction to Earl's Court.
M41 (now A3220) - the A41(M) was the Tring Bypass (and planned to be the Berrygrove (M1 junction 5)-Tring Motorway). The two are completely unrelated, other than they were both motorways in the London area, had '41' in their number and now aren't motorways. They definitely weren't part of the same route. M41 might have become M14 when Ringway 1 was finished (to give M14 for ringway 1, M15 for ringway 2 and M16 for ringway 3) - M41 is either a typo, the first free number in the M4x group or just a deliberately temporary number in case (as was the case) the North Cross route wasn't built.
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1) Metropolitan Line to Watford Junction
2) Bakerloo Line to Watford Junction
which will be fun at Watford High Street, where they would share platforms, though isn't isn't S stock going to have less of a gap with tube height trains.
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3) Bakerloo Line to Hayes
boo Bromley North is the way to go!
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Originally Posted by Republica View Post
It would be interesting to know how much of the beeching axe lines are still possible to re open IE. the route hasnt been built on. What a waste of infrastructure development. I'd hope most of them were safeguarded.
Many of them happily, while not being safeguarded, have mostly avoided being built on. However most of the routes were rightly closed (others, mostly as they were duplicates or had been slowly run down as the big 4 company that run it used to run the rival company in that area (see the GW line to Dudley - the biggest place in the UK without a train service)). Quite a few closed railway lines (be it Beeching, or before, or after) have been used for road links, and more recently, cycle paths. Annoyingly the direct route from London to Oxford has been built on and also now requires a viaduct over the M40.
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Old September 10th, 2008, 01:05 AM   #2860
jarbury
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Thanks for that Tubeman, I'm impressed! I guess it leads to another question, how come the Victoria Line has ATO whilst the newer Jubilee Line doesn't? (Or am I mistaken here?)
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