daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Subways and Urban Transport

Subways and Urban Transport Metros, subways, light rail, trams, buses and other local transport systems



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 27th, 2008, 11:12 PM   #2901
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

More pics of the S Stock mock-up, these are trains that will replace the current trains on the Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines (basically all sub-surface lines) from 2010. They will be the first to have air-conditioning and fully walk-through carriages.

See them here.
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 28th, 2008, 12:16 PM   #2902
sarflonlad
Registered User
 
sarflonlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,086
Likes (Received): 68

Thanks for sharing. These look fantastic! Can't wait for them.
sarflonlad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2008, 04:45 PM   #2903
Quente
Al-l-,
 
Quente's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Providence/Rio
Posts: 110
Likes (Received): 14

Trains and the weather

Hi Tubeman -

I've got a general question about trains.

I was reading a brief article this morning in the Boston Globe about two $900,000 rail cleaning machines that were put into service this month to clean leaf residue on the commuter rail lines.
Quote:
It turns out that soggy leaves on the tracks leave a slippery residue that causes train wheels to slip and flatten, requiring lower speed limits and more frequent repairs.
While I understand that a 4- to 6-car train hurtling down the track at 35 to 60 mph needs a dry surface for optimal braking and acceleration, I hadn't thought how susceptible they are to something as seemingly harmless as fallen leaves.

Is there a potential danger of derailment or is it more a case of simply having to slow down and falling behind schedule (the article mentions that in August, 17.5% of the commuter rail trips were at least 5 minutes late; so far in September, 14% were late)?
The article cited the need for more frequent repairs; what types of repairs would be needed?
What impact do snow and rain have on tracks?
Does the LU use rail cleaning machines within the tunnels?
Since you wouldn't have to worry about leaves, are there other rail hazards that present problems within the underground?

I'm curious about all this because I've started graduate school this semester and am taking the commuter rail from Providence to Boston on a regular basis. Any insights would be appreciated.

Many thanks - Kent
Quente no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2008, 06:31 PM   #2904
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quente View Post
Hi Tubeman -

I've got a general question about trains.

I was reading a brief article this morning in the Boston Globe about two $900,000 rail cleaning machines that were put into service this month to clean leaf residue on the commuter rail lines.


While I understand that a 4- to 6-car train hurtling down the track at 35 to 60 mph needs a dry surface for optimal braking and acceleration, I hadn't thought how susceptible they are to something as seemingly harmless as fallen leaves.

Is there a potential danger of derailment or is it more a case of simply having to slow down and falling behind schedule (the article mentions that in August, 17.5% of the commuter rail trips were at least 5 minutes late; so far in September, 14% were late)?
The article cited the need for more frequent repairs; what types of repairs would be needed?
What impact do snow and rain have on tracks?
Does the LU use rail cleaning machines within the tunnels?
Since you wouldn't have to worry about leaves, are there other rail hazards that present problems within the underground?

I'm curious about all this because I've started graduate school this semester and am taking the commuter rail from Providence to Boston on a regular basis. Any insights would be appreciated.

Many thanks - Kent
Hi Kent

As you surmise optimal railhead conditions are dry and clean, anything else can cause adhesion and therefore braking / acceleration problems to varying degrees. Leaf mulch is a serious hindrance and a national joke here, along with the 'wrong type of snow' which was the (valid) excuse for terrible rail disruption a few years ago (although this wasn't so much an adhesion issue if I remember correctly).

Basically anything that can reduce adhesion, be it rain, ice, snow, leaf mulch, weedkiller or grease causes the wheels to spin when accelerating (i.e. the motive effort is wasted by wheels spinning rapidly aimlessly) or causes them to lock when braking (i.e. whereas brake blocks normally allow wheels to turn while applying friction to slow them down, they stop rotation altogether and the wheels skid on the railhead). The former causes acceleration to be much slower than usual, and the latter demands far more cautious braking from drivers to prevent locking and skidding past stations / signals. Both combined therefore lead to a lot of lost time if railhead conditions are especially slippery, and untreated leaf mulch is about as bad as it gets.

Wheelspin is damaging insofar the motors can overwork, but wheel locking is far more damaging because when locked wheels skid they wear 'flats' onto the wheel surface, literally a flat surface on the otherwise circular wheel. These, if severe, cause damage to the track as essentially the train hammers on the railhead with each wheel rotation: it's noticeable to the passenger if your train has 'flats', you'll basically hear a banging noise with each wheel rotation.

With regard to 'repairs' the only solution is withdrawing the trains and re-profiling the wheels on a wheel lathe to restore the perfect circular shape, aside from the increased likelihood of broken rails and general track wear.

Ice has the same effect, as can rain (in my driving experience I always found a light coating of drizzle after a dry spell far worse than heavy rain)... Ice is far more of a problem on systems using current rails like London Underground and most of SE England's mainline network, as snow and ice get compacted under the pickup shoes and insulate them, essentially cutting off the power and stalling the train. Diesel and OLE systems only have to contend with the rail adhesion issue, and evidently as there are plenty of railways stretching up into the Arctic which cope perfectly well with snow and perpetual frost this is surmountable.

London Underground employs de-icing fluid sprayed from normal trains (roughly every other unit is capable of spraying de-icing fluid) to try to prevent the current shoe icing issue... It's often ineffective during heavy snow anyway, but fortunately most Winters we have 24 hours of laying snow at worst. Bear in mind most of LU is above ground and so has to contend with leaf fall and the weather conditions just like any other railway.

Network Rail employs 'Sandite' trains, which are converted ex-passenger units which spray a special mixture of sand onto the railhead to overcome the leaf mulch issue. We have nothing like that on LU, and we do experience leaf fall problems in certain areas like the outer reaches of the Metropolitan Line: our answer is simply to ask for vigilance from drivers. Network Rail also hack back vegetation from the trackside to reduce the amount of leaves deposited, this and Sandite trains has reduced the amount of leaf fall disruption.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 28th, 2008, 08:59 PM   #2905
Quente
Al-l-,
 
Quente's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Providence/Rio
Posts: 110
Likes (Received): 14


Hi Tubeman - Thanks so much for your prompt and very informative response. I especially appreciate the clarification about the "flats". This was mentioned in the quote from the article and I have to say I had no clue how a steel wheel could go flat - but now I do!

I hadn't realized until you pointed it out that most of the LU is above ground; I guess I need to get to London more often!

Thanks again - Kent
Quente no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 5th, 2008, 02:46 AM   #2906
zfreeman
Registered User
 
zfreeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Cork City, formally SY,UK/LDN,UK and CT,SA
Posts: 739
Likes (Received): 1

Hi Tubeman,

Perhaps a silly question, but something I've been mulling over since its a question I was posed and couldn't come up with an answer.

Given the construction of the new tube station at Wood Lane thats due to open, and some of the on-going campaigns to have certain Tube Stations renamed such as Aldgate East to Brick Lane and the change to H&C Shepherds Bush to Shepherds bush Market and others.
How do TfL and London Underground decide on whether a station is renamed and what new stations are called?
Do the local populace have a say?
zfreeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 5th, 2008, 11:50 AM   #2907
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by zfreeman View Post
Hi Tubeman,

Perhaps a silly question, but something I've been mulling over since its a question I was posed and couldn't come up with an answer.

Given the construction of the new tube station at Wood Lane thats due to open, and some of the on-going campaigns to have certain Tube Stations renamed such as Aldgate East to Brick Lane and the change to H&C Shepherds Bush to Shepherds bush Market and others.
How do TfL and London Underground decide on whether a station is renamed and what new stations are called?
Do the local populace have a say?

I assume it's escalated for the attention of the Board of Directors after the business case has been written. Generally a simple re-naming would probably not have a watertight business case as it costs money (changing all the Tube maps, enamel line maps on platforms, line maps in trains etc) with little or no tangible business benefit. Whatever you call Aldgate East, its usership is going remain the same. Wood Lane was paid for by Westfield, so I guess if a private company bankrolls the construction of a station or tables its re-naming and offers to pay for the costs then its 'worth it', although LU would have ultimate say in case they asked to call a station 'Westfield is great' or something like that!

Re-naming Shepherd's Bush to Shepherd's Bush Market might have been perceived as having a slightly better business case than re-naming Aldgate East 'Banglatown' or whatever ridiculous name they want to call it, as it is a disambiguation from the Central Line / LOROL station and has clearer customer benefit.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 8th, 2008, 12:16 PM   #2908
skydive
BANNED
 
skydive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Posts: 256
Likes (Received): 4

Hi Tubeman

Do your know what happened at Wood Green station yesterday 7th october(picadilly line) it was closed down when i went to it at 8.45 pm. whole bunch of emergency vehicles and police everywhere.

The number 29 Bendy bus i took to finsbury park played a recorded message about going up to the upperdeck that tape needs to be replaced, every one had a good laugh though
skydive no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 8th, 2008, 03:15 PM   #2909
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by skydive View Post
Hi Tubeman

Do your know what happened at Wood Green station yesterday 7th october(picadilly line) it was closed down when i went to it at 8.45 pm. whole bunch of emergency vehicles and police everywhere.

The number 29 Bendy bus i took to finsbury park played a recorded message about going up to the upperdeck that tape needs to be replaced, every one had a good laugh though
Just had a look: attempted suicide... Chap jumped under a Northbound train but according to the station report was brought out alive (trains report hasn't been published yet). Tosser.

Never heard any announcements on the 38's about going to the upper deck... that's hilarious though! Maybe they mean the roof?!
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 8th, 2008, 04:44 PM   #2910
skydive
BANNED
 
skydive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Posts: 256
Likes (Received): 4

thanks Tubeman, yes that suicide attempt caused a lot of commuters going home a lot of grief. When i got to finsbuty park from wood green, the 29 (and other) bus stop going to wood green was packed with people, in some cases the bus did not evevn stop because it was so packed. Normally i dont like bendy busses, but yesterday i changed that opinion thanks to its ability to carry so much people. However tfl or london mayor, who ever is responsible, needs to work out a system for bus conductor, many people ride free and the busses are not earning as much money as it should
skydive no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 8th, 2008, 08:05 PM   #2911
Acemcbuller
Lifelong Londoner
 
Acemcbuller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 204
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by skydive View Post
tfl or london mayor, who ever is responsible, needs to work out a system for bus conductor, many people ride free and the busses are not earning as much money as it should
TFL have said bendies suffer only marginally higher fare evasion than other buses. What appears to be large number of non-payers are ususally people whose season ticket give unlimited inclusive bus travel, so there is no point in them touching in.

See page 3 of the Should Boris Johnson renew the Bendy Bus contracts? thread for more discussion.
Acemcbuller no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 8th, 2008, 10:52 PM   #2912
Tubeman
Jubilation
 
Tubeman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London SE15
Posts: 18,973
Likes (Received): 3272

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemcbuller View Post
TFL have said bendies suffer only marginally higher fare evasion than other buses. What appears to be large number of non-payers are ususally people whose season ticket give unlimited inclusive bus travel, so there is no point in them touching in.

See page 3 of the Should Boris Johnson renew the Bendy Bus contracts? thread for more discussion.
My understanding is that they, and even I with a staff pass, would be liable for a penalty fare if caught by revenue on a bendy without having touched in. Even though it's 'paid for', I believe it is obligatory to touch on to a bendy bus.
Tubeman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 8th, 2008, 11:29 PM   #2913
iampuking
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,414
Likes (Received): 43

Shepherd's Bush station has been open again for a few days now, i'm surprised there is no mention of it.

See pics here.

And here is a video of the new station:



Also, Shepherd's Bush Overground station also opened over a week ago, and also went unmentioned. It's a rather bland concrete and glass affair...

Pics here.
iampuking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 9th, 2008, 12:38 AM   #2914
Stuu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 163
Likes (Received): 44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
My understanding is that they, and even I with a staff pass, would be liable for a penalty fare if caught by revenue on a bendy without having touched in. Even though it's 'paid for', I believe it is obligatory to touch on to a bendy bus.
I've just checked the terms and conditions, and you are right, everyone with an oystercard is supposed to touch in. The notices in buses and at stations all refer to pay as you go customers only, so many people (including me) did not know this is the legal situation. So they don't bother. I never have, and have been checked by inspectors several times, with nothing ever said. It would make an interesting court case should thjey ever prosecute someone for not touching in a ticket that the holder knows for sure is valid

Last edited by Stuu; October 9th, 2008 at 12:50 AM.
Stuu no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 9th, 2008, 03:31 AM   #2915
Capzilla
robkaper.nl
 
Capzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 5,896

Kinda off-topic and yet not: I always check in and out here in Rotterdam Holland with our system, even though I also have a paper version of the monthly subscription to the zones I use. It's not necessary but it speeds up opening the gates because the paper tickets aren't machine readable and opening the gates with those during the transitiom can only be done in a clumsy way.

I suppose the touch in/out requirement would make sense when you have a subscription to a number of zones yet happen to travel outside. If the control is inside these zones, the only way for TfL to be sure you pay the right fare is when you have touched in, otherwise you could cheat.
__________________
Rob Kaper
Capzilla no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 9th, 2008, 05:06 PM   #2916
skydive
BANNED
 
skydive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Posts: 256
Likes (Received): 4

Quote:
Transport for London said it has a 40m deposit with Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander, which has been placed into administration.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/skynews/200...n-45dbed5.html

40 million is a lot of money, however i hope no access to it for the time being is not too detrimental to commuters and people who work for tfl
skydive no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 9th, 2008, 08:51 PM   #2917
sweek
Registered User
 
sweek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London NW1
Posts: 1,636
Likes (Received): 1

I have always thought, and I have heard Ken Livingstone say, that you don't have to touch in with a season Oyster card. All the signs on the bus also say that PAYG must touch in, implying season card users don't have to.

I once saw an argument with a guy who said he didn't touch in because he had already reached his cap for the day on PAYG. When they saw that he had, they let him go.
sweek no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2008, 01:50 AM   #2918
U Thant
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 232
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
I have always thought, and I have heard Ken Livingstone say, that you don't have to touch in with a season Oyster card. All the signs on the bus also say that PAYG must touch in, implying season card users don't have to.
Yes - every aspect of the system seems to be designed around season ticket holders not touching in - from the signs you mention, to the way ticket gates and ticket inspectors behave. I believe the T&Cs are legal arse-covering and would only be enforced in extreme cases.

But the argument about bendy buses stands regardless - the majority of people not touching in have season tickets and don't think they have to.
U Thant no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2008, 02:14 AM   #2919
jarbury
Resident Planner
 
jarbury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 3,795
Likes (Received): 24

Isn't it best to encourage everyone to touch in, for statistical purposes as much as anything?
__________________
All opinions are my own and not my employer's (or anyone else's).
jarbury no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 10th, 2008, 08:49 AM   #2920
sweek
Registered User
 
sweek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London NW1
Posts: 1,636
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by jarbury View Post
Isn't it best to encourage everyone to touch in, for statistical purposes as much as anything?
Dwelling times would go up, and the bendy buses are there exactly to combat that problem on the busiest bus lines.
sweek no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
london, railways, tube

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium