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Old November 7th, 2008, 09:20 PM   #2961
sotonsi
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
Hi tubeman just a point about DLR to woolwich that i have just noticed out of curiosity is this

it takes

-34 minutes roughly to get from woolwich arsenal to charing cross

-31 minutes to get from woolwich arsenal to canon street

via south eastern

-it is eastimated that it will take 27 minutes to get to bank on the DLR

the DLR has the advantages of being integrated with TFL fares, more frequent, and it takes u into the heart of the city, and one of LU's biggest interchange stations.
But Cannon Street/Charing Cross both have excellent locations, and different tube connections. The NR routes are already integrated into the TfL fare structure, though Oyster is coming soon rather than being now. Charing Cross and the West End would definitely be better via Southeastern. The City is a toss up - depends on crowding and so on. Post Crossrail, Southeastern will win for the south of the City.
Quote:
Based on all this do you not think this extension is gonna be REALLY REALLY overcrowded within weeks of it opening.
no - it will relieve overcrowding on the Southeastern, but it won't take all the passengers! It will be a lot busier, but I'd be surprised if it's anything more than crowded. Anyway, many people will change at Canning Town for the JLE to give them improved journey times and connections to the tube.
Quote:
the station has nearly 3 million passengers with 6-8 trains an hour all going to different destinations via different routes. imagine what being on the tube map is gonna do.
not a lot. There will be some bus to Woolwich from Eltham and so on, but it will be no worse than Lewisham or Greenwich, which were both busy stations with lots of trains anyway (especially Lewisham).
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Originally Posted by Jang0 View Post
to be honest, i can't really see the justification behind that DLR extension... not considering that Crossrail will soon be there too and it should be a much better service than the DLR.
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
crossrail was never planned to stop at woolwich which was alwasy stupid
it's clever now it passes under the area
Quote:
the original plan was for the jubliee line to follow the crossrail alignment from north greenwich, the only difference being that it would serve woolwich arsenal station, and run along the disused track bed to thamesmead.
you mean the sewer to Thamesmead? that's a good route, though interchanging with Plumstead would be easier and make more sense. However Stratford-North Greenwich wouldn't be able to cope with another branch. Woolwich Arsenal DLR was always about connecting it to the Royal Docks and Stratford, rather than Central London. Crossrail will be a lot quicker and better from Woolwich to both 'Downtown' Docklands and Central London. I think the DLR got there first, however. The question is whether the Crossrail branch should be going there (the answer is no, though Docklands does need another link, and then they just took that onwards). having the Goblin or H&C going to Dagenham Dock, and Crossrail's Isle of Dogs branch (which cripples the line, but allows it to be built) could have gone via Custom House, London City Airport, Gallions Reach, Dagenham Dock (and serving the area the DLR would have done) and onto Grays and beyond (perhaps Ebbsfleet/Northfleet, which would require a tunnel under the Thames, but would be rather easy), allowing more LTS trains to Southend. I think Ebbsfleet was a big aim as was 'serving' Thamesmead via Abbey Wood. They could have done the former easily from Grays, giving the benefit of a local rail crossing in the area, and done the latter better with a DLR branch to replace Dagenham Dock.
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Old November 7th, 2008, 09:58 PM   #2962
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But Cannon Street/Charing Cross both have excellent locations, and different tube connections. The NR routes are already integrated into the TfL fare structure, though Oyster is coming soon rather than being now. Charing Cross and the West End would definitely be better via Southeastern. The City is a toss up - depends on crowding and so on. Post Crossrail, Southeastern will win for the south of the City.
no - it will relieve overcrowding on the Southeastern, but it won't take all the passengers! It will be a lot busier, but I'd be surprised if it's anything more than crowded. Anyway, many people will change at Canning Town for the JLE to give them improved journey times and connections to the tube.
no offence sotonsi but you don't live in the area. people sit on the the 472 to north greenwich for an hour just get to a TfL branded station, and the 53 bus which conencts to the west end is stupidly busy with many people using it as a commuter route. The amount of people who would rather get the DLR than slow, overcrowded, dirty (unless u travelled on south eastern around SEL and north kent, u won't understand how skanky the trains are and the people that use them) will shock you.

and remember frequency is a massive point, most trains from woolwich will be going to canon street, i think its a train every half an hour to charing cross, i'd rather get the DLR to bank and change for the central, than wait half an hour for a charing cross train.

by tfl fares, i meant oyster pay as you go.


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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
not a lot. There will be some bus to Woolwich from Eltham and so on, but it will be no worse than Lewisham or Greenwich, which were both busy stations with lots of trains anyway (especially Lewisham)..
it's not alot in the grand scheme, but it is a station on a slow overcrowded line with not that many trains serving it, its one of london's busier surburban stations and it's town centre and transport hub, it will increase massively imho, alot of the north greenwich set will transfer over.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
it's clever now it passes under the areayou mean the sewer to Thamesmead? that's a good route, though interchanging with Plumstead would be easier and make more sense. However Stratford-North Greenwich wouldn't be able to cope with another branch. Woolwich Arsenal DLR was always about connecting it to the Royal Docks and Stratford, rather than Central London. Crossrail will be a lot quicker and better from Woolwich to both 'Downtown' Docklands and Central London. I think the DLR got there first, however. The question is whether the Crossrail branch should be going there (the answer is no, though Docklands does need another link, and then they just took that onwards). having the Goblin or H&C going to Dagenham Dock, and Crossrail's Isle of Dogs branch (which cripples the line, but allows it to be built) could have gone via Custom House, London City Airport, Gallions Reach, Dagenham Dock (and serving the area the DLR would have done) and onto Grays and beyond (perhaps Ebbsfleet/Northfleet, which would require a tunnel under the Thames, but would be rather easy), allowing more LTS trains to Southend. I think Ebbsfleet was a big aim as was 'serving' Thamesmead via Abbey Wood. They could have done the former easily from Grays, giving the benefit of a local rail crossing in the area, and done the latter better with a DLR branch to replace Dagenham Dock.

That wasn't my idea, it was the original plans, don't shoot the messenger. woolwich and thamesmead was the original destination not stratford.

i hate crossrail and would rather chelney was built, and they extended the bakerloo, victoria and northern into south london, but alas, the over blown and stupid win out
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Old November 7th, 2008, 11:04 PM   #2963
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
no offence sotonsi but you don't live in the area. people sit on the the 472 to north greenwich for an hour just get to a TfL branded station, and the 53 bus which conencts to the west end is stupidly busy with many people using it as a commuter route. The amount of people who would rather get the DLR than slow, overcrowded, dirty (unless u travelled on south eastern around SEL and north kent, u won't understand how skanky the trains are and the people that use them) will shock you.
I've spent quite a bit of time on the SErn network. That people are muppets and ignore it's existence and would rather take ages on a bus beats me. However sensible people will realise, when they arrive at Woolwich Arsenal, that they can use those Southeastern Trains to get to London. Many will also realise that they have a Southeastern station near where they start their journey and use that. All those stations in that North Kent area have at least 6tph in the peak, if not more. People will surely realise that long bus journeys aren't good. I think why people use TfL services (the buses aren't on the tube map) is Oyster, which should be there within a year.
Quote:
and remember frequency is a massive point, most trains from woolwich will be going to canon street, i think its a train every half an hour to charing cross, i'd rather get the DLR to bank and change for the central, than wait half an hour for a charing cross train.
Going to London Bridge on a Cannon Street train, then changing is as easier than changing at Bank or Cannon Street and then heading to the West End. Post-Stratford International, it'll be easier than half the changes at Canning Town to change at London Bridge from a Cannon Street train to a Charing Cross train. Or you set off for your commute at the right time to get on a Charing Cross train - there's no need to wait! I remember my dad used to want to get a 1tph Chiltern to Marylebone, rather than the Met line when he worked in Bromley, as it was more comfortable and got him into London at the right time to cross it and take the train out of Victoria to Bromley. What he did was plan to turn up at the station about 2 minutes before the Chiltern was coming, rather than wait for ages. It wasn't the end of the world if he missed that Chiltern, though of course it wasn't ideal to wait 10 minutes and then take an extra 10 minutes to get to zone 1.

Also, the trains to Charing Cross will soon be every 20 minutes.
Quote:
by tfl fares, i meant oyster pay as you go.
ah, you were basically being imprecise. Anyway, surely commuters tend to have period season tickets? These are valid on South Eastern as an Oyster.
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it's not alot in the grand scheme, but it is a station on a slow overcrowded line with not that many trains serving it, its one of london's busier surburban stations and it's town centre and transport hub, it will increase massively imho, alot of the north greenwich set will transfer over.
It's worth pointing out that the DLR would about double the capacity. It would have to double the demand to be overcrowded.

If the Southeastern line is overcrowded (it's not until Greenwich IIRC), then clearly what you say about everyone preferring to go by bus and North Greenwich is rubbish (and North Greenwich was designed as a bus-fed station, Woolwich Arsenal isn't as much). You seem to be undermining your own argument.

Maybe, however it will not overcrowd the DLR - most of the DLR people would get off at Canning Town anyway. And if it does get overcrowded then Crossrail would relieve that within 6 or 7 years, leaving the DLR for local journeys. You're complaint was that the DLR would get overcrowded, and they shouldn't build Crossrail - you aren't making sense!
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That wasn't my idea, it was the original plans, don't shoot the messenger. woolwich and thamesmead was the original destination not stratford.
I wasn't shooting the messenger - I was saying that the 'original' plans weren't as good as they could be.

I did, of course, correct the messenger, about thinking the Southern Outfall Sewer was a disused railway - I thought you were local? No wonder you seem so huffed up about my correction. You're shooting the messenger that said "your local knowledge is wrong" - and with that, undermines your argument in this post, which relies on your local knowledge being superior to mine.

Anyway, Addiscombe/Hayes via Lewisham was the original plan. Stratford was a sensible choice - rather cheap, better connections, crowding relief on the DLR - it was an option from day 1 of serving Docklands rather than a usurper: as were things like Westcombe Park, serving Thameslink via Gallions Reach, Barking via Beckton, Beckton on it's own and a whole range of other routes.
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i hate crossrail and would rather chelney was built, and they extended the bakerloo, victoria and northern into south london, but alas, the over blown and stupid win out
I agree, but the pork projects that serve big business get built. JLE, Crossrail...
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Old November 7th, 2008, 11:28 PM   #2964
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sorry but is long putting all your comments into quote marks so i will just write it like this

-if you have spent time on the south eastern network, especially the bexleyheath and woolwich lines, you'll know the people are indeed muppets.

-6tph in peak isn't great, won't the DLR be offering at least double?

-People are impatient, most people would rather a frequent service that is slightly less comfortable, than an infrequent one which isn't. I rarely use rail timetables, i just turn up and go, and it is very annoying when u turn up at a station and see you have a 15 minute wait. Before i get shot down, if i am planning a specific journey i will of course schedule accordingly.

-You got to remember when a new line appears passengers aer conjoured from nowhere, north greenwich gets 10 million per year, and the stations it was said to have taken passengers away from are increasing their patronage. The DLR is part of TfL family which is a case for effective branding, it is clear that people travel from long distances just to use TfL services. Tubeman always talks about how people in wimbledon would rather use the slow distrct line than the fast trains to waterloo, and i think the case will be the same here, especially with TfL actively advertising quicker journey times into town.

-I'm not saying it's "overcrowded" i'm saying that people from as far as erith and bexleyheath will transfer from using there shoddy south eastern service to the DLR, TfL even think so thats why they are altering the buses in the area to coincide.

-LOL of course i know what the southern outfall sewer is, what it leads to, crossness makes the local area stink from time to time. anyway when i read certain documentation it was stated that the jubilee line would run on a disused track bed from the royal arsenal railway, and if you did your research u would find that a railway left the south eastern tracks east of plumstead (glorious place)!

-on the original plan i wasn't referring to the fleet line original plan, i was referring to the original jubilee line extension plan, as proposed by the LDDC, go on there website, there are various ideas, including extending the bakerloo, a new line from waterloo to westcombe park, the current alignment to thamesmead from custom house. Remember the alignment of north greenwich was created allowing for easy extension to thamesmead if needed.

-yes it will all change when crossrail happens, if i should say, and i hope it doesn't still. But thats 10 years away at the earliest, this is a growth area.

Last edited by bigbossman; November 7th, 2008 at 11:37 PM.
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Old November 8th, 2008, 02:20 AM   #2965
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-if you have spent time on the south eastern network, especially the bexleyheath and woolwich lines, you'll know the people are indeed muppets.
I spent a week commuting from Mottingham to Peckham. The lack of orbital connections were crap, but we used the trains as the buses didn't work. The trains were fine, if a little overcrowded due to 2000 extra people trying to use the station at the same time.
Quote:
-6tph in peak isn't great, won't the DLR be offering at least double?
yes, but the mainline trains are at least 8-car. Also it's not 6tph peak, but 8 I think, soon to be 9.[/quote]
Quote:
-People are impatient, most people would rather a frequent service that is slightly less comfortable, than an infrequent one which isn't. I rarely use rail timetables, i just turn up and go, and it is very annoying when u turn up at a station and see you have a 15 minute wait. Before i get shot down, if i am planning a specific journey i will of course schedule accordingly.
Commuting is a specific journey like that - you'd schedule it to be the least stress. As for the first point, I suggest you look at Amersham, Chalfont, etc. off-peak: people let Mets go by and wait for Chilterns, simply as they are more comfortable. More still look at timetables and plan accordingly so that they won't have to wait for Chilterns.

I guess the problem with Woolwich Arsenal is that the trains are frequent enough for turn up and go, but not frequent enough to not mean the odd 15 minute wait, and made up of different routes, so that you do actually want to use a timetable, even if that is a dirty word in London. Worst of both worlds - uncertainty of TUAG, and not quite enough of a saving to go through the hassle of a timetable.
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-You got to remember when a new line appears passengers aer conjoured from nowhere, north greenwich gets 10 million per year, and the stations it was said to have taken passengers away from are increasing their patronage. The DLR is part of TfL family which is a case for effective branding, it is clear that people travel from long distances just to use TfL services.
but we can happily penalise the stupid ones who have a better service that's not branded the same way - you haven't addressed my point that Oyster on SET will rectify this problem.
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Tubeman always talks about how people in wimbledon would rather use the slow distrct line than the fast trains to waterloo, and i think the case will be the same here, especially with TfL actively advertising quicker journey times into town.
Then it's TfL's misleading advertising to blame (and they must feel that it won't cause problems) - it's only quicker to parts of town, and for the West End you have to change.

As for Wimbledon, it's changes we're talking about - Many people would have to change at Waterloo, and that costs a 'time penalty' in addition to the journey time. You'd go a bit out of your way to not make a change.
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-I'm not saying it's "overcrowded" i'm saying that people from as far as erith and bexleyheath will transfer from using there shoddy south eastern service to the DLR, TfL even think so thats why they are altering the buses in the area to coincide.
Surely people from Erith may as well get the train to Woolwich, and then might as well stay on! Bexleyheath, clearly is a different issue, though it would take them longer to get to central London that way - though Docklands would be easier via Woolwich than Lewisham. Sorry, I mistook you for the other person saying similar things, including "it'll be very very overcrowded".
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-LOL of course i know what the southern outfall sewer is, what it leads to, crossness makes the local area stink from time to time. anyway when i read certain documentation it was stated that the jubilee line would run on a disused track bed from the royal arsenal railway, and if you did your research u would find that a railway left the south eastern tracks east of plumstead (glorious place)!
left, you mean north? I see it - almost pointless as it goes such a short distance - going on top of the sewer makes far more sense. That railway line takes you right into the middle of the emptiest bit of Thamesmead, on the edge of the place nearest Plumstead - most of the north Thamesmead will still be closer to Abbey Wood.
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-on the original plan i wasn't referring to the fleet line original plan, i was referring to the original jubilee line extension plan, as proposed by the LDDC, go on there website, there are various ideas, including extending the bakerloo, a new line from waterloo to westcombe park, the current alignment to thamesmead from custom house. Remember the alignment of north greenwich was created allowing for easy extension to thamesmead if needed.
indeed, however Stratford didn't usurp Thamesmead, which was what you suggested - Stratford and/or Thamesmead (plus some other options) usurped the original plan for extending the Jubilee - Lewisham and beyond. I mentioned the JLE/BJE plans that you mentioned. I even got them off the LDDC website. I guess you failed to read my post.
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Old November 8th, 2008, 12:53 PM   #2966
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Hi tubeman just a point about DLR to woolwich that i have just noticed out of curiosity is this

it takes

-34 minutes roughly to get from woolwich arsenal to charing cross

-31 minutes to get from woolwich arsenal to canon street

via south eastern

-it is eastimated that it will take 27 minutes to get to bank on the DLR

the DLR has the advantages of being integrated with TFL fares, more frequent, and it takes u into the heart of the city, and one of LU's biggest interchange stations.

Based on all this do you not think this extension is gonna be REALLY REALLY overcrowded within weeks of it opening.

the station has nearly 3 million passengers with 6-8 trains an hour all going to different destinations via different routes. imagine what being on the tube map is gonna do.
As soon as people work out it's quicker than mainline to The City then yes, I guess it will be crammed. As least West End passengers would favour NR to Charing Cross, which is one saving grace. Shouldn't really be complaining about a new infrastructure development being a great success though I suppose!
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Old November 8th, 2008, 01:01 PM   #2967
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another question tubeman i have just seen a map which has a crossrail alignment running from the isle of dogs station to charlton via north greenwich, then by the looks taking over the north kent line to places beyond, surely this is a million times better than the alignment they chose.

Obviously, it would leave the north kent line from greenwich nowhere to go, except maybe terminating at the old bay platform in charlton or even curving round into the blackheath tunnel then back to central london via lewisham. It ceases to amaze that they always choose the worst idea. The question is do you think this wouldve been a better idea?
I'm with you on this one: I think Crossrail joining the existing line at Charlton and thus running through Woolwich rather than avoiding it would be far better. I guess the advantage of the chosen route is twofold: existing right of way from Custom House to North Woolwich and the ability to serve the Royal Docks with something other than DLR.

I'm unsure what stations are proposed to re-open out of Custom House, Silvertown and North Woolwich, but I seem to recall it's only Custom House. Custom House would be good for Excel, but then not re-opening Silvertown for City Airport would be an opportunity missed... And North Woolwich would probably be of the most benefit to local residents (although at this point the alignment would be diving into the tunnel under the Thames).
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Old November 8th, 2008, 08:46 PM   #2968
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once again i am two lazy to quote every individual point, sotonsi

-mottingham isn't on the bexleyheath or woolwich lines, which is what i mentioned.
-the 8tph peak to woolwich arsenal all go to different destinations, not all go to canon street.
-oyster on SET will give greater choice but as i have mentioned, before oyster paper tickets were universal and people still favoured the underground over the overground.
-you have a similar "time penalty" changing at canon street for the district as at waterloo, bank you have an abundance of lines to all sorts destinations, all an escalator ride or two away through no barriers
-i said
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and if you did your research u would find that a railway left the south eastern tracks east of plumstead (glorious place)!
you said
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left, you mean north? I see it.
the word left is not the left as in directional purposes but the word left as in the verb to leave, seriously if you are gonna take pot shots get it right.

-people in erith or belvedere traditionally have always got the bus to abbey wood or woolwich, dependent on the part of these areas you lived in, to get a train as there are usually double the amount in peak with the addition of semi fast trains, erith and belvedere stations are not busy at all.

You have got to remember this woolwich is surrounded by huge swathe of housing which has no train station nearby or is equidistant to another station, given greater choice, woolwich wins out. for example if you live 20 minutes from bexleyheath station by bus and 30 minutes from woolwich arsenal, and you have the same frequency of bus taking you in both directions, i would bet the majority of people would choose woolwich station given the greater choice and the shorter waits. This was the point i was trying to make.

-stratford did usurp thamesmead, they had the choice of the two and stratford one, hence stratford usurped thamesmead.
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Old November 8th, 2008, 08:51 PM   #2969
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As soon as people work out it's quicker than mainline to The City then yes, I guess it will be crammed. As least West End passengers would favour NR to Charing Cross, which is one saving grace. Shouldn't really be complaining about a new infrastructure development being a great success though I suppose!
i'm not complaining tubeman believe me, i just can't get my head around how the supposedly slow and toy railway DLR, gets you into zone 1 quicker than a heavy railway, which has 4 less stops and has a bolt straight run from london bridge to greenwich.
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Old November 8th, 2008, 08:58 PM   #2970
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I'm with you on this one: I think Crossrail joining the existing line at Charlton and thus running through Woolwich rather than avoiding it would be far better. I guess the advantage of the chosen route is twofold: existing right of way from Custom House to North Woolwich and the ability to serve the Royal Docks with something other than DLR.

I'm unsure what stations are proposed to re-open out of Custom House, Silvertown and North Woolwich, but I seem to recall it's only Custom House. Custom House would be good for Excel, but then not re-opening Silvertown for City Airport would be an opportunity missed... And North Woolwich would probably be of the most benefit to local residents (although at this point the alignment would be diving into the tunnel under the Thames).
the way you mentioned the royal docks it's like its under provided in terms of tranport infrastructure, i mean newham has three tube lines with in its environs and it's hardly a large borough, what does south east london have to do to get little more than small encroatchments from TfL, a station here a station there, but no concerted penetration into our territory.

I heard that if demand suffices they would resite silvertown to where DLR crosses and add a DLR station for easy interchange, but once again the line doesn't make its mind up whether it is a city based metro or an express commuter line, the south eastern branch seems to be a express commuter line that stays firmly within the city, i mean 4 stations on that branch despite carving through limehouse, leamouth, silvertown, north woolwich and plumstead.

and also if they can four track as far as abbey wood, they can four track to erith there is the same amount of space at least that far if not further (i know, i know money money money)

on a different matter, great performance today from the lads, although the 6 minutes of injury time were torture.
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Old November 9th, 2008, 02:20 AM   #2971
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i think Crossrail and DLR in Woolwich will add a fair amount to any orbital-type commutes that people do. Clearly even though big money and fat cats cause things like Crossrail / JLE to happen, the knock-on effects are not too bad. I don't see people complaining that they can now get to the West End on the JLE or that you can get to Stratford in under 20mins from CW on either DLR or JL.

As a South-east Londoner, I would very much like to see some real improvements to both heavy rail and tube in Southwark, Lewisham and Bromley boroughs. My local train line is only 2tph and that only takes me to the City directly. The alternative is a Bakerloo line change at Elephant and Castle which is an abysmal interchange station if I ever saw one.

I believe in the concept of a metro service. You should be able to turn up and go to get from any point A to any point B within London. It shouldn't take more than an hour on most journeys. Unfortunately, the reality is that it's often quicker (and cheaper) to drive most journeys within suburban London (zone 3 outwards). I did a journey today from Woodford to Neasden on public transport and it took just under 2 hours. By car it would have taken no more than hour (assuming no ridiculously heavy traffic). So, why should I bother using public transport again?
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Old November 9th, 2008, 10:24 AM   #2972
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Woodford to Neasden took you two hours by public transport? Central Line to Bond Street should be 33 minutes, Jubilee line from Bond Street to Neasden is 19 minutes. Total including interchange time is well under an hour. What went so wrong?
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Old November 9th, 2008, 02:27 PM   #2973
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maybe he tried to be clever and went via the north london line or something
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Old November 9th, 2008, 03:24 PM   #2974
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i'm not complaining tubeman believe me, i just can't get my head around how the supposedly slow and toy railway DLR, gets you into zone 1 quicker than a heavy railway, which has 4 less stops and has a bolt straight run from london bridge to greenwich.
It all goes fine until the approaches to London Bridge; despite 11 approach tracks more often than not 'through' trains are held outside, and then the remainder of the journey into Charing Cross is slow.
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Old November 9th, 2008, 03:36 PM   #2975
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
the way you mentioned the royal docks it's like its under provided in terms of tranport infrastructure, i mean newham has three tube lines with in its environs and it's hardly a large borough, what does south east london have to do to get little more than small encroatchments from TfL, a station here a station there, but no concerted penetration into our territory.

I heard that if demand suffices they would resite silvertown to where DLR crosses and add a DLR station for easy interchange, but once again the line doesn't make its mind up whether it is a city based metro or an express commuter line, the south eastern branch seems to be a express commuter line that stays firmly within the city, i mean 4 stations on that branch despite carving through limehouse, leamouth, silvertown, north woolwich and plumstead.

and also if they can four track as far as abbey wood, they can four track to erith there is the same amount of space at least that far if not further (i know, i know money money money)

on a different matter, great performance today from the lads, although the 6 minutes of injury time were torture.
Newham's an enormous borough; over a quarter of a million inhabitants and very dense terraces and council estates... I think it's poorly provided for actually, there's a vast tract of dense urban area with no form of rail between the District Line and Royal Docks. Prior to the DLR inroads into the Royal Docks the transport was awful with just the North London Line every half hour. The DLR's all well and good, but considering how central the area is there's no direct fast route into the West End which Crossrail would provide.

And yes the 6 minutes were bloody torture!
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Old November 9th, 2008, 05:51 PM   #2976
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-mottingham isn't on the bexleyheath or woolwich lines, which is what i mentioned.
It's on the Sidcup loop - run by the same company, same type of service pattern. What you mentioned was SE London/Southeastern. Don't go moving the goalposts.
Quote:
-the 8tph peak to woolwich arsenal all go to different destinations, not all go to canon street.
All go to Central London. The DLR will be half to Canning Town (and when it opens, Stratford International) and half to London. In short, they are similar - my point remains.
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-oyster on SET will give greater choice but as i have mentioned, before oyster paper tickets were universal and people still favoured the underground over the overground.
but at that point the fare structure was different and the 'overground' had only just got decent - it was so awful and the Government took away the franchise, but now has been improved somewhat.
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-you have a similar "time penalty" changing at canon street for the district as at waterloo, bank you have an abundance of lines to all sorts destinations, all an escalator ride or two away through no barriers
The Cannon Street-District change penalty is better than the Waterloo-District one . Seriously, the physical time penalty is shorter, and for places like Blackfriars, Mansion House, Temple, Cannon Street, etc there's a second change needed from Waterloo. One would imagine, due to Bank/Monument having two names, people would consider the interchange at Cannon Street better (it is to an extent) and worth that extra couple of minutes getting to the interchange point. Oxford Circus and Tottenham Court Road would be a simple race, probably just won by NR and then tube, rather than DLR and Central Line.
Piccadilly Circus, Charing Cross and Leicester Square would be take any NR train and maybe change at London Bridge, rather than DLR and two changes.

Come 2015 when Thameslink is fully finished, those journey times will be lower on the London Bridge lines. Even the 2010 timetable changes should go some way to improving that.

Bank still has a penalty for changing, not just the time one. People would wait up to 15 minutes if heading for Charing Cross, rather than wait 2 and get a DLR to Bank and change. People would rather go on the circle line rather than via Green Park for Baker Street-South Kensington (I did this journey often as a child, and when I realised it was easier to change at Finchley Road and then Green Park, rather than at Baker Street and wait, I wanted to do it everytime, but my Mum didn't see the benefit, as it was two changes - even going to Marylebone and walking to Baker Street for the circle was more preferable to her, as it was only one change).

I'd say that this would also mean that North Greenwich people would stay North Greenwich people, unless they came from Woolwich in the first place. The change at Canning Town would be too much for most people, and they'd stay getting on the Jubilee at North Greenwich. This change penalty is why I don't understand people travelling from within walking distance of stations like Erith to Woolwich by bus and then getting on a train.
Quote:
the word left is not the left as in directional purposes but the word left as in the verb to leave, seriously if you are gonna take pot shots get it right.
You were missing a word there. I assumed it to be of. Punctuation was lacking and made it unclear.
You said:
"and if you did your research u would find that a railway left the south eastern tracks east of plumstead (glorious place)!"

I read this as:
"and if you did your research you would find that railway left of the south eastern tracks east of plumstead (glorious place)!"

However, what you meant was:
and if you did your research u would find that a railway that has been left, near the south eastern tracks east of plumstead (glorious place)!

Seriously, if you are going to take pot shots at my interpretation of what you have said, at least get it right. You completely misunderstood what I took your meaning to be, which I mistook as it really wasn't the obvious meaning. The railway hasn't been left anyway - though the trackbed is still there, the railway isn't. Even the trackbed isn't that clear: OS just has an embankment, which could be from anything, and aerial photos just show open space.
Quote:
for example if you live 20 minutes from bexleyheath station by bus and 30 minutes from woolwich arsenal, and you have the same frequency of bus taking you in both directions, i would bet the majority of people would choose woolwich station
Do buses really take that long? I'm surprised that people use them if they do. Looking at a map, that wouldn't be a real case, in terms of journey times. Bexleyheath is also further out. Clearly people would choose Woolwich (closer plus the semi-fasts), but quite why they get buses from Erith if there's direct trains that they will probably just get on at Woolwich beats me - unless it's a pricing issue, saving money due to only going from zone 3, rather than zone 4 or 5.
Quote:
-stratford did usurp thamesmead, they had the choice of the two and stratford one, hence stratford usurped thamesmead.
I suggest you look up the definition of usurp. Usurp would be if Thamesmead was the planned one and then someone went "lets go to Stratford instead". It's "to take power from", not "to win a power struggle". Thamesmead didn't have the nod - it was an option. It's like saying Obama usurped McCain, it's not true - Obama was chosen out of the pair to be President-elect. It is true that Edward IV usurped Henry VI, by deposing Henry and taking the crown for himself (it doesn't happen often - I guess Cromwell counts as a usurper as well, though that's not exactly the case).

That the via Waterloo route usurped the original via Charing Cross route is true. That the via Docklands route usurped the via the Lewisham/Greenwich area route is also true.
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Old November 9th, 2008, 07:12 PM   #2977
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opinions requested

Hello Tubeman,
I was wondering if you would be willing to gather some comments or opinions on Tubular Rail as an addition or replacement to Crossrail.
Please see,
http://www.tubularrail.com/index.html
Thanks,
Robert Pulliam
Tubular Rail Inc.
Houston TX
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Old November 9th, 2008, 10:01 PM   #2978
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Seriously this turning into the special olympics

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
It's on the Sidcup loop - run by the same company, same type of service pattern. What you mentioned was SE London/Southeastern. Don't go moving the goalposts..
it's not moving the goalposts its what i said, i said the bexleyheath and woolwich lines, not once did i mention the sidcup line as it runs nowhere near woolwich and or bexleyheath for that matter. (save for a little bit near bexley)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
All go to Central London. The DLR will be half to Canning Town (and when it opens, Stratford International) and half to London. In short, they are similar - my point remains.but at that point the fare structure was different and the 'overground' had only just got decent - it was so awful and the Government took away the franchise, but now has been improved somewhat.The Cannon Street-District change penalty is better than the Waterloo-District one . Seriously, the physical time penalty is shorter, and for places like Blackfriars, Mansion House, Temple, Cannon Street, etc there's a second change needed from Waterloo. One would imagine, due to Bank/Monument having two names, people would consider the interchange at Cannon Street better (it is to an extent) and worth that extra couple of minutes getting to the interchange point. Oxford Circus and Tottenham Court Road would be a simple race, probably just won by NR and then tube, rather than DLR and Central Line.
Piccadilly Circus, Charing Cross and Leicester Square would be take any NR train and maybe change at London Bridge, rather than DLR and two changes.
We will never agree on this, but as being a local, and knowing the mentality of fellow locals who travel from far and wide to get to north greenwich, the DLR will most likely dominate south eastern whether the service improves or not. People like branded services with regularly scheduled services, not the 8tph that south eastern operates, where u get 4 trains in ten minutes and none for 20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Come 2015 when Thameslink is fully finished, those journey times will be lower on the London Bridge lines. Even the 2010 timetable changes should go some way to improving that.
obviously but thats 7 years, by the time thats done it will be an established route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Bank still has a penalty for changing, not just the time one. People would wait up to 15 minutes if heading for Charing Cross, rather than wait 2 and get a DLR to Bank and change. People would rather go on the circle line rather than via Green Park for Baker Street-South Kensington (I did this journey often as a child, and when I realised it was easier to change at Finchley Road and then Green Park, rather than at Baker Street and wait, I wanted to do it everytime, but my Mum didn't see the benefit, as it was two changes - even going to Marylebone and walking to Baker Street for the circle was more preferable to her, as it was only one change).
people wouldn't, people want high frequency services not sporadic. People travel from far and wide just to use north greenwich because it provides a tons better service than national rail even if it is quicker to get to london bridge by overground, it is all about image. Thats why the only way it would change is if tfl controlled all commuter rail into london

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
I'd say that this would also mean that North Greenwich people would stay North Greenwich people, unless they came from Woolwich in the first place. The change at Canning Town would be too much for most people, and they'd stay getting on the Jubilee at North Greenwich. This change penalty is why I don't understand people travelling from within walking distance of stations like Erith to Woolwich by bus and then getting on a train.
You were missing a word there. I assumed it to be of. Punctuation was lacking and made it unclear.
You said:
"and if you did your research u would find that a railway left the south eastern tracks east of plumstead (glorious place)!"

I read this as:
"and if you did your research you would find that railway left of the south eastern tracks east of plumstead (glorious place)!"

However, what you meant was:
and if you did your research u would find that a railway that has been left, near the south eastern tracks east of plumstead (glorious place)!

Seriously, if you are going to take pot shots at my interpretation of what you have said, at least get it right. You completely misunderstood what I took your meaning to be, which I mistook as it really wasn't the obvious meaning. The railway hasn't been left anyway - though the trackbed is still there, the railway isn't. Even the trackbed isn't that clear: OS just has an embankment, which could be from anything, and aerial photos just show open space.
You are a serious idiot, especially if think that i meant

"and if you did your research u would find that a railway that has been left, near the south eastern tracks east of plumstead (glorious place)!"

the useage of the verb to leave is meant in reference to the former railway and how it left the the south eastern tracks east of plumstead station, not how a railway has been left. However i know you didn't, you obviously spent long and hard trying to think of a way to save face, all i can say is epic fail

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Do buses really take that long? I'm surprised that people use them if they do. Looking at a map, that wouldn't be a real case, in terms of journey times. Bexleyheath is also further out. Clearly people would choose Woolwich (closer plus the semi-fasts), but quite why they get buses from Erith if there's direct trains that they will probably just get on at Woolwich beats me - unless it's a pricing issue, saving money due to only going from zone 3, rather than zone 4 or 5.
Now i know you are scraping the barrel, OF COURSE buses take that long, heck during saturday shopping hours it can take up to 15 minutes to do around a mile down plumstead high street. it takes about 20 minutes to get from thamesmead to any meaningful train station. and the 96 bexleyheath to woolwich can take 30 minutes during the quietest of times, it's just how it is.

And not everyone in erith lives next to erith train station. if you live 15 minutes walk from erith station and 10 minutes bus journey from abbey wood and you have a travelcard, i know which alternative i'd take, go to abbey wood where the are more trains, doy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
I suggest you look up the definition of usurp. Usurp would be if Thamesmead was the planned one and then someone went "lets go to Stratford instead". It's "to take power from", not "to win a power struggle". Thamesmead didn't have the nod - it was an option. It's like saying Obama usurped McCain, it's not true - Obama was chosen out of the pair to be President-elect. It is true that Edward IV usurped Henry VI, by deposing Henry and taking the crown for himself (it doesn't happen often - I guess Cromwell counts as a usurper as well, though that's not exactly the case)


That the via Waterloo route usurped the original via Charing Cross route is true. That the via Docklands route usurped the via the Lewisham/Greenwich area route is also true.
ahem, as stated thamesmead was the planned one (in at least two plans, one going along the original fleet line plan then following the crossrail route, and one leaving the built jubilee at north greenwich). They wanted to serve the "new town" of thamesmead, then stratford usurped thamesmead, but provisions were still left in for thamesmead to be revisited at a later date

The thing with this is i'm never gonna agree with you, and you never we me, so lets end it, and agree to disagree.

Last edited by bigbossman; November 9th, 2008 at 10:08 PM.
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Old November 9th, 2008, 10:07 PM   #2979
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It all goes fine until the approaches to London Bridge; despite 11 approach tracks more often than not 'through' trains are held outside, and then the remainder of the journey into Charing Cross is slow.
Yeah i get you on that. There are times when you stop three or four times on the way into London Bridge it's an absolute joke.
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Old November 9th, 2008, 10:28 PM   #2980
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Newham's an enormous borough; over a quarter of a million inhabitants and very dense terraces and council estates... I think it's poorly provided for actually, there's a vast tract of dense urban area with no form of rail between the District Line and Royal Docks. Prior to the DLR inroads into the Royal Docks the transport was awful with just the North London Line every half hour. The DLR's all well and good, but considering how central the area is there's no direct fast route into the West End which Crossrail would provide.

And yes the 6 minutes were bloody torture!
Greenwich is nearly a third bigger and probably has bigger areas where no train has ever or ever will venture i mean the massive space between the greenwich and bexleyheath lines has to be seen on a map to be believed, and if i'm not mistaken greenwich contains wards which rank poorer than any in newham, these are the wards around woolwich town centre, and the ferrier ward in kidbrooke. Newham may be more dense and populated, but it does have better transport links than greenwich no doubt imho.

Also newham is britain and coincidentally londons 13th densest borough. There are denser boroughs with no tube what so ever or even less tube provision, and added to that even more pitiful railway provision. Lewisham has the downham estate with no station really anywhere near except grove park and hackney which will have hoxton station not actually in hoxton and haggerston station not actually in haggerston, just a couple of areas that spring to mind.

i know Newham is on the whole london's third poorest borough but it has the tube and it's poorest areas are infact the best served imho (canning town, plaistow, forest gate, stratford, manor park), it's the same elsewhere I mean as i have mentioned before supposedly sort after Islington has the tube, 3 lines in fact serving more or less the whole borough, but it's still 4th poorest in london.

i just personally feel thay Greenwich should have priority over newham on this one, but of course it's not my call, and i don't know more than the planners or you for that matter probably so i guess i should concede
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