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Old November 10th, 2008, 02:14 AM   #2981
sotonsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
it's not moving the goalposts its what i said, i said the bexleyheath and woolwich lines, not once did i mention the sidcup line as it runs nowhere near woolwich and or bexleyheath for that matter. (save for a little bit near bexley)
I don't recall you mentioning that - it was SE London and Southeastern. I won't go and find the quote, partially as you've just tried to find a way to save face.
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You are a serious idiot, especially if think that i meant

"and if you did your research u would find that a railway that has been left, near the south eastern tracks east of plumstead (glorious place)!"

the useage of the verb to leave is meant in reference to the former railway and how it left the the south eastern tracks east of plumstead station, not how a railway has been left. However i know you didn't, you obviously spent long and hard trying to think of a way to save face, all i can say is epic fail
'Had a junction with' would have been a clearer verb. I get it now. I wouldn't use leave, because you might as well had said joined, which it would do in the up direction. I really didn't find that out without you spelling it out. 'To leave' is just an odd verb there - left as in left in-situ/behind, left as in not right, left as in diverged from. I blame English words having too many meanings. I think the missing 'yo' made me think I was dealing with someone with poor grammar.

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Now i know you are scraping the barrel, OF COURSE buses take that long, heck during saturday shopping hours it can take up to 15 minutes to do around a mile down plumstead high street.
walking is quicker!
Quote:
it takes about 20 minutes to get from thamesmead to any meaningful train station.
Abbey Wood?
Quote:
and the 96 bexleyheath to woolwich can take 30 minutes during the quietest of times, it's just how it is.
So there is nowhere that can be 20 minutes from Bexleyheath and 30 from Woolwich. If the buses take that long, it's really really stupid to take a bus to North Greenwich from somewhere that's close to a rail station. Clearly, if that's the case, then the speed difference will mean nothing for the DLR, as
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And not everyone in erith lives next to erith train station. if you live 15 minutes walk from erith station and 10 minutes bus journey from abbey wood and you have a travelcard, i know which alternative i'd take, go to abbey wood where the are more trains, doy!
Clearly, however judging by bus times you suggest, it would take 30 minutes to bus it to Woolwich - which is what we were discussing - by which time you could have gone to Abbey Wood, or walked to Erith. Clearly also, if you have a shorter bus journey than walk, you'd take that, and you ignore the fact you can take a bus the other way to Erith or somewhere. What I don't get is people living within 10 minutes of Erith station wanting to take a bus for 30 minutes and then getting on a train at Woolwich, rather than getting a train from Erith straight to zone 1.

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ahem, as stated thamesmead was the planned one (in at least two plans, one going along the original fleet line plan then following the crossrail route, and one leaving the built jubilee at north greenwich). They wanted to serve the "new town" of thamesmead, then stratford usurped thamesmead, but provisions were still left in for thamesmead to be revisited at a later date
Fair enough - I see the '70s plan that escaped my notice. Still, you moved the goalposts to the later JLE when I mentioned that Thamesmead usurped Addiscombe, in which case, I'm right.
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The thing with this is i'm never gonna agree with you, and you never we me, so lets end it, and agree to disagree.
We're going to have to wait until the station opens and then either your initial "very very overcrowded" comment (I looked back, and though you denied it, it was you) that I entered this debate to challenge will be true, or I win, as what I set off to do, and debunk that will happen. I don't think we can measure the stupidity and illogicality of people in SE London and whether they'd flock to Woolwich though, so the extent of how much we're right will be unknowable...
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Old November 11th, 2008, 04:32 PM   #2982
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hi guys ... using tfl journey planner :

i live in welling and i commute to borough market - mon-fri

southeastern welling --> london bridge = 30mins

10 min wait + 486 bus to north greenwich + jubilee line to london bridge = 1 hour

10 min wait + 51 bus to woolwich + king george v --> bank + (3mins? from woolwich arsenal) = 1 hour

... why would u not use national rail if its avaliable to you !?
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Old November 12th, 2008, 01:06 AM   #2983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris.haynes View Post
hi guys ... using tfl journey planner :

i live in welling and i commute to borough market - mon-fri

southeastern welling --> london bridge = 30mins

10 min wait + 486 bus to north greenwich + jubilee line to london bridge = 1 hour

10 min wait + 51 bus to woolwich + king george v --> bank + (3mins? from woolwich arsenal) = 1 hour

... why would u not use national rail if its avaliable to you !?

Your post assumes that everyone that lives in welling lives within 10-20 minutes travelling distance of the station which is rubbish, i lived on upper wickham lane for years, and it was as easy to travel to abbey wood or plumstead stations. 10 minutes on the bus either way. YOu may live next to welling station, but not everyone does.

If you read my posts i am talking about the people who don't live near stations but have alternatives between two or more separate ones

also i never mentioned the 486 once, who would get that to north greenwich from welling when it doesn't even travel a direct route. when mentioning north greenwich i was referring to the 472 set, they planned the GWT to relieve it because the route has become so busy, people travel from thamesmead, plumstead etc to get there
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Old November 12th, 2008, 01:29 AM   #2984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
I don't recall you mentioning that - it was SE London and Southeastern. I won't go and find the quote, partially as you've just tried to find a way to save face.
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-if you have spent time on the south eastern network, especially the bexleyheath and woolwich lines, you'll know the people are indeed muppets.
Clearly shows i was specifically not referring to the sidcup line, which YOU brought up!

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
'Had a junction with' would have been a clearer verb. I get it now. I wouldn't use leave, because you might as well had said joined, which it would do in the up direction. I really didn't find that out without you spelling it out. 'To leave' is just an odd verb there - left as in left in-situ/behind, left as in not right, left as in diverged from. I blame English words having too many meanings. I think the missing 'yo' made me think I was dealing with someone
with poor grammar..
That doesn't even warrant a reply more than this

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
walking is quicker!

Abbey Wood?.
yes in morning peak it can take that long especially from crossways when 10 people are getting on the 229 at every stop.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
So there is nowhere that can be 20 minutes from Bexleyheath and 30 from Woolwich. If the buses take that long, it's really really stupid to take a bus to North Greenwich from somewhere that's close to a rail station. Clearly, if that's the case, then the speed difference will mean nothing for the DLR, as
Clearly, however judging by bus times you suggest, it would take 30 minutes to bus it to Woolwich - which is what we were discussing - by which time you could have gone to Abbey Wood, or walked to Erith. Clearly also, if you have a shorter bus journey than walk, you'd take that, and you ignore the fact you can take a bus the other way to Erith or somewhere. What I don't get is people living within 10 minutes of Erith station wanting to take a bus for 30 minutes and then getting on a train at Woolwich, rather than getting a train from Erith straight to zone 1..
ok let me explain it for you nice and simple

-as mentioned the 96 can take during the best times around 30 minutes to get from bexleyheath to woolwich, but that is town centre to town centre. At the worst of times this journey can take upwards of an hour, due to traffic and heavy loadings.
-there are however parts of bexleyheath and welling, around king harolds way, okehampton crescent which are halfway inbetween bexleyheath and woolwich, mainly based on the fact that the 422 goes on a roundabout route to get to bexleyheath station meaning they are viable alternatives. for example if waiting at london bridge station you have a legitimate choice of using either the bexleyheath or woolwich lines to get you home.
-No matter what you say alot of people see the tube as more convenient no matter if it is or isn't. they see the ability of getting one or even two buses then a tube straight into the heart of the city or west end as a viable alternative to their local station, it's just how it is. Alot of people get on the 472 from thamesmead to north greenwich it's just how it is. it's like people sit on the 96 for and hour and a bit from woolwich to bluewater because they want to shop in bluewater, even though they go through the perfectly adequate bexleyheath shopping centre, it's just how it is.
-on the erith thing, it's the same point i've been trying to explain, if you live say in the fraser road area then you are not near erith station and you have the 99 bus which will take you to woolwich in 20 minutes, where there are more trains and the fares are cheaper (zone 4), people see that alternative as better than travelling to erith in zone 6 with less trains.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Fair enough - I see the '70s plan that escaped my notice. Still, you moved the goalposts to the later JLE when I mentioned that Thamesmead usurped Addiscombe, in which case, I'm right.We're going to have to wait until the station opens and then either your initial "very very overcrowded" comment (I looked back, and though you denied it, it was you) that I entered this debate to challenge will be true, or I win, as what I set off to do, and debunk that will happen. I don't think we can measure the stupidity and illogicality of people in SE London and whether they'd flock to Woolwich though, so the extent of how much we're right will be unknowable...
i never said it wouldn't be very overcrowded what i said, was that the south eastern services aren't VERY overcrowded

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-I'm not saying it's "overcrowded"
they are just standard busy, so i didn't deny anything you just didn't- like previously- understand my use of simple grammar, it's means it is, and it doesn't mean it's going to be, although you seem to think it does.

Basically let me summarise my point for you. Alot of people from the woolwich thamesmead areas (but by no means the majority)** travel to north greenwich station, i believe with the opening of DLR alot of those will transfer to woolwich arsenal, along with many of those who currently use woolwich arsenal south eastern station, meaning that the station will be extremely busy. Thats basically it, but you tried your damdest to change what i said and to pick holes in nothing through misunderstanding, i hope that has cleared it up for ya.

**let me give you an example to illustrate my point, manchester united are the biggest club in the country, they have fans everywhere, but with the exception of their immediate environs they are not the dominant club. Yes you will find Manchester United fans in any south london comp, but usually it is 1-3 in each class where as the local london team (in croydon it's palace) and arsenal/tottenham have the majority split between them. Relating this back to my point. North Greenwich is machester united, and the surrounding districts are the regions of britain. In the local area north greenwich dominates in that most local passengers choose to use NG, but in areas like woolwich and thamesmead and even beyond people still travel to use the station, add them all together and it's a significant proportion of the total usership. I hope this helps to understand what i am trying to say

Last edited by bigbossman; November 12th, 2008 at 01:42 AM.
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Old November 12th, 2008, 01:36 AM   #2985
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Okaaaaay this is 'Ask the Tubeman' not 'bigbossman and sotonsi have a squabble' take it elsewhere please gents...

To change the subject entirely, I have just got back from my first ever LU customer focus group (and consequently have just worked a 14 hour day, 07:30-21:30!!!). It was really interesting, I didn't even know we did them!

14 customers from the Bakerloo Line stations north of Queen's Park were selected and enticed by the promise of money to a venue behind Selfridges. The first 90 minutes they have a focus group separated from we Bakerloo senior managers by a two-way mirror, so we observe and scribble notes while they comment on what's good and bad about our service. The second 90 minutes we're then introduced to the group and field their questions and ask them our own questions about the customer experiences. Quite a lively group, but it was enlightening. We got posed the usual questions about why we can't run 24 hours and why we can't run more trains so they can all get a seat, but there were some more useful bits of feedback there too.

I'm ready for my bed now though...
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Old November 12th, 2008, 01:50 AM   #2986
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sorry tubeman, do you know how one gets on these focus groups?? i for one have a lot to say!!
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Old November 12th, 2008, 06:36 AM   #2987
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Hey Tubeman - first of all, great thread.

My question is around the Northern Electrics line out of Moorgate. I know it used to be owned and operated by London Underground (Northern City Line), then transferred to British Rail around 1975 (just after Moorgate Accident). Has there been any discussion about extending the tunnels south, say to Waterloo, providing a new crossrail line and essentially making the Waterloo and City Line redundant? I don't know what's happening underground just south of Moorgate, with regard to whether or not the tunnels could physically be extended. The major advantage would be through train services from the south-west (trains that currently terminate at Waterloo), through the City and to the north. I assume dual-voltage stock, similar to Thameslink, could be used.
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Old November 12th, 2008, 09:40 PM   #2988
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Hi
I was wondering if you have any news on the new edition of your London Railway Atlas. Is it likely to be available in time for Christmas?
Thanks
Paul
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Old November 13th, 2008, 12:28 AM   #2989
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sorry tubeman, do you know how one gets on these focus groups?? i for one have a lot to say!!
Apparently you just get accotsed outside Tube stations... I've never been on a focus group, I feel a bit jealous!
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Old November 13th, 2008, 12:35 AM   #2990
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Hey Tubeman - first of all, great thread.

My question is around the Northern Electrics line out of Moorgate. I know it used to be owned and operated by London Underground (Northern City Line), then transferred to British Rail around 1975 (just after Moorgate Accident). Has there been any discussion about extending the tunnels south, say to Waterloo, providing a new crossrail line and essentially making the Waterloo and City Line redundant? I don't know what's happening underground just south of Moorgate, with regard to whether or not the tunnels could physically be extended. The major advantage would be through train services from the south-west (trains that currently terminate at Waterloo), through the City and to the north. I assume dual-voltage stock, similar to Thameslink, could be used.
I think the main limitation of the Great Northern & City is the short platforms: I guess the huge expense of extension when only 4-car trains can run is deemed excessive, nice thought in principle though.

It's had an intersting history for such a short line: opened as an independent railway in the 1900's as the only surface stock gauge Tube line, bought by the Metropolitan Railway, later transferred to the Northern Line when it was supposed to be extended north to take over the GNR Northern Heights (aborted post-WW2 despite being almost complete), curtailed to Drayton park so the tunnels through Finsbury Park could be cannibalised by the Victoria Line, further witness to the worst accident in Tube history at Moorgate in 1975, then transferred to BR.
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Old November 13th, 2008, 12:36 AM   #2991
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Hi
I was wondering if you have any news on the new edition of your London Railway Atlas. Is it likely to be available in time for Christmas?
Thanks
Paul
Sadly not in time for Xmas as I'd hoped, the second edition won't be out until July 2009 because Ian Allan want to sell all of the stock of the First edition before printing the second. I don't have a say in these matters!
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Old November 13th, 2008, 12:47 AM   #2992
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Wasn't there a proposal at one stage to link up the Great Northern and City with the Waterloo and City?
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Old November 13th, 2008, 03:18 PM   #2993
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I think the main limitation of the Great Northern & City is the short platforms: I guess the huge expense of extension when only 4-car trains can run is deemed excessive, nice thought in principle though.

It's had an intersting history for such a short line: opened as an independent railway in the 1900's as the only surface stock gauge Tube line, bought by the Metropolitan Railway, later transferred to the Northern Line when it was supposed to be extended north to take over the GNR Northern Heights (aborted post-WW2 despite being almost complete), curtailed to Drayton park so the tunnels through Finsbury Park could be cannibalised by the Victoria Line, further witness to the worst accident in Tube history at Moorgate in 1975, then transferred to BR.
What was the frequency of the Northern Line trains on this line then compared to when it was taken over by British Rail? Did passenger trains branch off from other Northern Line stations (eg Kennington) or was it run as a self-contained shuttle for most of the day?

It seems strange that a Tube line was taken over, but then I guess the same is happening with the East London Line extension albeit remaining in TfL control. (And I believe that the existing ELL stations will receive an increased frequency.)
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Old November 13th, 2008, 05:51 PM   #2994
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Is there a junction between the GN&C and the Northern lines at Moorgate then? I assumed they were separate, despite running on top of each other there.
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Old November 13th, 2008, 06:32 PM   #2995
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They are seperate, though plans were made to link them up once (IIRC). Other plans were link the GN&C to the W&C, or the GN&C to the Met at Liverpool Street (bypassing Moorgate)
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Old November 14th, 2008, 12:37 AM   #2996
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What was the frequency of the Northern Line trains on this line then compared to when it was taken over by British Rail? Did passenger trains branch off from other Northern Line stations (eg Kennington) or was it run as a self-contained shuttle for most of the day?

It seems strange that a Tube line was taken over, but then I guess the same is happening with the East London Line extension albeit remaining in TfL control. (And I believe that the existing ELL stations will receive an increased frequency.)
It was always isolated at the Moorgate end, but it certainly had a more 'Tube like' service under LT with better frequencies and a weekend service. The folks who really missed out were those in the environs of Essex Road and to a lesser extent Drayton Park (I say lesser because it's closer to other stations than Essex Road).

Once the line was curtailed at Drayton Park in the 1960's it became even less useful than before and certainly had 'value added' as a BR branch even if it didn't operate at weekends (considering it only provided direct trains to The City I guess its usefulness at weekends was limited anyway).
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Old November 14th, 2008, 12:40 AM   #2997
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They are seperate, though plans were made to link them up once (IIRC). Other plans were link the GN&C to the W&C, or the GN&C to the Met at Liverpool Street (bypassing Moorgate)
Even with the 'New Works' programme extending the GN&C at the northern end to Ally Pally and East Finchley (and beyond to Edgware and High Barnet), I don't think a connection to the Northern Line proper at Moorgate was ever mooted.

There were proposals to link to the Metropolitan Line when it was owned by them and later to the W&C, but these were never pursued.
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Old November 14th, 2008, 05:26 AM   #2998
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I have a couple of questions:

1) What do you think is the worst Tube line and why?
2) What do you think is the best Tube line and why?
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Old November 14th, 2008, 10:05 AM   #2999
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What's your definition of best and worst? The view on the overground parts, the over-all performance (fewer delays and outages), ridership numbers? I doubt there's a single answer for best and worse..
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Old November 14th, 2008, 11:11 AM   #3000
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An opinion really.... I guess the one that "works" best and worst from a regular user's perspective. I've heard lots of people say the Northern Line is definitely the worst.
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