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Old November 15th, 2008, 11:54 PM   #3021
bigbossman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Unusually the entire South London Line route from Victoria to London Bridge was built with 3 tracks, still intact in places (Victoria to Clapham High Street), but for a lot of the route the space vacated by the middle track allowed for new island platforms at Queen's Road, Peckham Rye and South Bermondsey. The 'extra' third track was retined for the approaches to the two termini because it serves as a relief road, leading to the odd number of tracks on both approaches.
so its basically-

3 tracks- south london line
2- south eastern surburban (via dept and lewisham)
2- kent main line
2- brighton main line
2- brighton main line (stopping)

or am i wrong
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Old November 16th, 2008, 01:42 AM   #3022
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
so its basically-

3 tracks- south london line
2- south eastern surburban (via dept and lewisham)
2- kent main line
2- brighton main line
2- brighton main line (stopping)

or am i wrong
No that's about right... The only 'bottleneck' as I see it is the fact that the two tracks ex-Deptford merge with 4 ex-St Johns at North Kent East Junction, so 6 tracks merge into 4 there.
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Old November 16th, 2008, 01:55 AM   #3023
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
tubeman, was @ mile end today and i personally think that as a station it embodies what i feel a truely integrated underground station should be, and is probably my favourite, what are your opinions of it?

and what is your favourite/most hated stations?
It's incredibly practical and the only example of subterranean cross-platform interchange between a Subsurface and a Tube line, but I always found the station quite opressive and gloomy: the flat ceiling and columns are reminiscent of a New York subway station. It seems to have a similar effect on other passengers too, as it's a... if not the... suicide hotspot on LU.

Bow Road is minging, and Stepney Green is pretty gloomy and opressive too. Gunnersbury is a concrete jungle, Stonebridge Park is windswept and spartan... But that being said only a handful are genuinely unpleasant and are beyond help no matter how they're painted / lit.

I love very many stations: the classic 1860's stations like Baker Street (Circle) and Notting Hill Gate, the magnificent overall roof of Earl's Court (although it's been hidden for years now, sadly), the almost twee ex-LSWR stations at Southfields, Ravenscourt park and Turnham Green, the ultra modern JLE stations, the rustic ex-GNR stations north of East Finchley, the 1930's masterpieces at Chiswick park, Park Royal, Southgate etc... We have some fabulous and varied stations.
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Old November 16th, 2008, 02:36 AM   #3024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
It's incredibly practical and the only example of subterranean cross-platform interchange between a Subsurface and a Tube line, but I always found the station quite opressive and gloomy: the flat ceiling and columns are reminiscent of a New York subway station. It seems to have a similar effect on other passengers too, as it's a... if not the... suicide hotspot on LU.

Bow Road is minging, and Stepney Green is pretty gloomy and opressive too. Gunnersbury is a concrete jungle, Stonebridge Park is windswept and spartan... But that being said only a handful are genuinely unpleasant and are beyond help no matter how they're painted / lit.

I love very many stations: the classic 1860's stations like Baker Street (Circle) and Notting Hill Gate, the magnificent overall roof of Earl's Court (although it's been hidden for years now, sadly), the almost twee ex-LSWR stations at Southfields, Ravenscourt park and Turnham Green, the ultra modern JLE stations, the rustic ex-GNR stations north of East Finchley, the 1930's masterpieces at Chiswick park, Park Royal, Southgate etc... We have some fabulous and varied stations.
Yeah it feels grotty, but it buzzes like no other and doesn't feel too overcrowded with it.

Yes Baker street is immense, I do like earls court also, and i love the uniqueness of paddington on the hammersmith and city line, the way it emerges into Brunel's western gateway but still seems so detatched from it.
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Old November 16th, 2008, 02:41 AM   #3025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
so its basically-

3 tracks- south london line
2- south eastern surburban (via dept and lewisham)
2- kent main line
2- brighton main line
2- brighton main line (stopping)

or am i wrong
No that's about right... The only 'bottleneck' as I see it is the fact that the two tracks ex-Deptford merge with 4 ex-St Johns at North Kent East Junction, so 6 tracks merge into 4 there.
My quail suggests otherwise.

From South to North, just before the throat:
Up South London
Down South London
Up BML
Down BML
UP loop
No 6 Up
No 5 Down
No 4 Down
No 3 Up
No 2 Reversible
No 1 Down

That puts the 3 track railway the other side of the formation to the South London Line.

Just over a mile from London Bridge, as the SLL diverges the formation looks like this:
Up South London
Down South London
Reversible (nominally Up BML Slow, though also a second Down SL that only goes to the spur from the SL to the BML)
Up Fast
Down BML (just about to split into fast and slow)
Up loop (just about to merge into No 6 Up for BML split)
No 6 Up
No 5 Down
No 4 Down
No 3 Up
No 2 Reversible
No 1 Down

The South London tracks serve platforms 13-16, you can consider them the slow for the Central network. There's the spur from the SLL to a flat junction with the BML, and there the Reversible ends.
The BML tracks serve platforms 8 to 13, and cover the whole BML, slow and fast, with conflicts only in the throat (where platforms are paired and crossovers happen before they merge together).
The Up Loop serves the non-existent platform 7 and the tracks with numbers serve those platforms. 4 to 7 come from 2 Charing Cross tracks. 1-3 come from Cannon Street. 5 and 6 become the down SEML fast, 4 is able to split either way (merging with no 2 and no 5 after the Greenwich line heads off) just south of New Cross the no 2 merges with the no 1 and no 3.

The SL is not three tracks, at least not functionally.

Still, it's all about to change!
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Old November 16th, 2008, 04:47 AM   #3026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
It's incredibly practical and the only example of subterranean cross-platform interchange between a Subsurface and a Tube line, but I always found the station quite opressive and gloomy: the flat ceiling and columns are reminiscent of a New York subway station. It seems to have a similar effect on other passengers too, as it's a... if not the... suicide hotspot on LU.

Bow Road is minging, and Stepney Green is pretty gloomy and opressive too. Gunnersbury is a concrete jungle, Stonebridge Park is windswept and spartan... But that being said only a handful are genuinely unpleasant and are beyond help no matter how they're painted / lit.

I love very many stations: the classic 1860's stations like Baker Street (Circle) and Notting Hill Gate, the magnificent overall roof of Earl's Court (although it's been hidden for years now, sadly), the almost twee ex-LSWR stations at Southfields, Ravenscourt park and Turnham Green, the ultra modern JLE stations, the rustic ex-GNR stations north of East Finchley, the 1930's masterpieces at Chiswick park, Park Royal, Southgate etc... We have some fabulous and varied stations.
Bow Road station has been refurbished and looks much better.

I love Mile End. It is unique in many respects, you can see daylight from the western end of the westbound Central line platforms, subterrenean cross platform interchange between sub-surface and tube lines, you can see Bow Road station from the eastern end of the District/H&C lines and it's the only cross platform interchange where the tube lines are on the outside and the sub-surface on the inside! I also love seeing trains race into all four platforms...
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Old November 16th, 2008, 10:53 AM   #3027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
My quail suggests otherwise.

From South to North, just before the throat:
Up South London
Down South London
Up BML
Down BML
UP loop
No 6 Up
No 5 Down
No 4 Down
No 3 Up
No 2 Reversible
No 1 Down

That puts the 3 track railway the other side of the formation to the South London Line.

Just over a mile from London Bridge, as the SLL diverges the formation looks like this:
Up South London
Down South London
Reversible (nominally Up BML Slow, though also a second Down SL that only goes to the spur from the SL to the BML)
Up Fast
Down BML (just about to split into fast and slow)
Up loop (just about to merge into No 6 Up for BML split)
No 6 Up
No 5 Down
No 4 Down
No 3 Up
No 2 Reversible
No 1 Down

The South London tracks serve platforms 13-16, you can consider them the slow for the Central network. There's the spur from the SLL to a flat junction with the BML, and there the Reversible ends.
The BML tracks serve platforms 8 to 13, and cover the whole BML, slow and fast, with conflicts only in the throat (where platforms are paired and crossovers happen before they merge together).
The Up Loop serves the non-existent platform 7 and the tracks with numbers serve those platforms. 4 to 7 come from 2 Charing Cross tracks. 1-3 come from Cannon Street. 5 and 6 become the down SEML fast, 4 is able to split either way (merging with no 2 and no 5 after the Greenwich line heads off) just south of New Cross the no 2 merges with the no 1 and no 3.

The SL is not three tracks, at least not functionally.

Still, it's all about to change!

I thought he meant more in terms of where the lines come from, obviously after the series of crossovers in the Southwark Park area the lines are reorganised and you can't definitively say which track handles which traffic.
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Old November 16th, 2008, 10:54 AM   #3028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Bow Road station has been refurbished and looks much better.
Fair enough, it's been some years since I last passed through
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Old November 16th, 2008, 12:27 PM   #3029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I thought he meant more in terms of where the lines come from, obviously after the series of crossovers in the Southwark Park area the lines are reorganised and you can't definitively say which track handles which traffic.
yeah i meant what tubeman said
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Old November 17th, 2008, 12:33 AM   #3030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
It's incredibly practical and the only example of subterranean cross-platform interchange between a Subsurface and a Tube line, but I always found the station quite opressive and gloomy: the flat ceiling and columns are reminiscent of a New York subway station. It seems to have a similar effect on other passengers too, as it's a... if not the... suicide hotspot on LU.

Bow Road is minging, and Stepney Green is pretty gloomy and opressive too. Gunnersbury is a concrete jungle, Stonebridge Park is windswept and spartan... But that being said only a handful are genuinely unpleasant and are beyond help no matter how they're painted / lit.

I love very many stations: the classic 1860's stations like Baker Street (Circle) and Notting Hill Gate, the magnificent overall roof of Earl's Court (although it's been hidden for years now, sadly), the almost twee ex-LSWR stations at Southfields, Ravenscourt park and Turnham Green, the ultra modern JLE stations, the rustic ex-GNR stations north of East Finchley, the 1930's masterpieces at Chiswick park, Park Royal, Southgate etc... We have some fabulous and varied stations.

Love Mile End, reminds me of the subway in New York however it needs a clean up......the station reminds me of Westminster Cathedral ie unfinished.
Its bottom half is tiled and dirty yet the barreled roof is just bare - imagine it painted or tiled could become as iconic as Green stations are.

I love Canary Wharf on the JLE too just because of the space.

Everyone has a favourite............
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Old November 17th, 2008, 01:33 PM   #3031
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I really like Finchley Road as well. It feels similar to Mile End in that it has a cross-platform "small train to big train" interchange, although this one is just outside the station. It also feels sort of New Yorkish.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 07:05 PM   #3032
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Hey tubeman, great thread as per usual! On Saturday i saw this travelling west bound at Westminster, do you know what the dirt has come from? I guess its something to do with the district line as it was shut for engineering...

Apologies for the quality were taken on my blackberry... doh!

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
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Old November 17th, 2008, 08:17 PM   #3033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I thought he meant more in terms of where the lines come from, obviously after the series of crossovers in the Southwark Park area the lines are reorganised and you can't definitively say which track handles which traffic.
I thought I did a good job of following the tracks through. My Second list is about where the SLL joins (OK, where the UP pass loop ends). I thought I did a pretty good job of following the tracks through, saying where they came from in the down direction and where they go in the up direction.

There are only a couple of crossovers in the Southwark Park area - the Spa Road area has lots. Southwark Park is down from where the SLL joins and there has been one little crossover linking Southern and SErn at that point.

I repeat strongly, that there are NOT three tracks from the SLL. There are 6 tracks from the SEML, 3 of which the Greenwich line merges into and 6 from the BML, 2 of which the SLL merges into.

At Southwark Park, you have 6 tracks (down, reversible, up, down, down, up) which link to the SErn network and 6 tracks (down, down, up, reversible, down, up) that link to the Southern network (3 separate from the main formation). The South London is isolated, save for the link from the up and down 'spur' tracks to/from the BML away from London, the reversible diverging from the down direction and a crossover just before the throat. The SLL can only access three tracks at the throat - the southernmost three - and only because of the crossover a third of a mile from London Bridge, over a mile since the SLL merged with the spur tracks, and two thirds of a mile since the Reversible ended).

Three tracks join the formation when the SLL joins it properly, but that is because the reversible diverges there (but doesn't have any crossovers with the SLL), and merges in with the spur to the BML a bit later.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 08:40 PM   #3034
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Services were suspended Embankment to Whitechapel, so somewhere between there... All that filth is decades of ballast intermingled with all manner of dirt. The track is ripped up, all the old ballast is dug out, new ballast laid and new track with flat-bottomed rail on concrete sleepers laid. The improvement in ride quality is immense, they're slowly replacing all of the SSR tunnelled sections, probably more than halfway now.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 08:45 PM   #3035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
I thought I did a good job of following the tracks through. My Second list is about where the SLL joins (OK, where the UP pass loop ends). I thought I did a pretty good job of following the tracks through, saying where they came from in the down direction and where they go in the up direction.

There are only a couple of crossovers in the Southwark Park area - the Spa Road area has lots. Southwark Park is down from where the SLL joins and there has been one little crossover linking Southern and SErn at that point.

I repeat strongly, that there are NOT three tracks from the SLL. There are 6 tracks from the SEML, 3 of which the Greenwich line merges into and 6 from the BML, 2 of which the SLL merges into.

At Southwark Park, you have 6 tracks (down, reversible, up, down, down, up) which link to the SErn network and 6 tracks (down, down, up, reversible, down, up) that link to the Southern network (3 separate from the main formation). The South London is isolated, save for the link from the up and down 'spur' tracks to/from the BML away from London, the reversible diverging from the down direction and a crossover just before the throat. The SLL can only access three tracks at the throat - the southernmost three - and only because of the crossover a third of a mile from London Bridge, over a mile since the SLL merged with the spur tracks, and two thirds of a mile since the Reversible ended).

Three tracks join the formation when the SLL joins it properly, but that is because the reversible diverges there (but doesn't have any crossovers with the SLL), and merges in with the spur to the BML a bit later.
My point is that originally the SLL was built with three tracks, a vestige of this is the 3 tracking of the spur ex-Thames Junction onto which it joins at South Bermondsey Junction. 3 tracks were de rigeur at one point: the route from London Bridge to Charing Cross was originally built with 3, as was the NLR main line into Broad Street (both subsequently had a 4th track added). As the viaduct into London Bridge ended up to a width to accommodate an odd number of tracks as a consequence, it was fully utilised.

Last edited by Tubeman; November 17th, 2008 at 11:32 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 11:19 PM   #3036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
The improvement in ride quality is immense, they're slowly replacing all of the SSR tunnelled sections, probably more than halfway now.
Certainly is a huge improvement. Is there any information available with the schedule for when the tracks will be replaced? I know about the track closures thing on the TFL site, but presumably there are internal documents with a more complete schedule? I would love to know when they are going to start on the section between Finchley Road and Baker Street, its got to be the worst on the network
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Old November 17th, 2008, 11:27 PM   #3037
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Another question, how come Clapham Junction doesn't have a tube line run through it (considering how busy it is), and do you think it should? Following on from that, are there any plans to hook Clapham Junction up to the Tube?
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Old November 17th, 2008, 11:31 PM   #3038
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Hey Tubeman,

I'm going to stay in London for eight weeks from the end of december till end of february. Is taking pictures of The Tube allowed inside stations and trains?

Thanks! Greetings from Brazil!
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Old November 17th, 2008, 11:36 PM   #3039
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Certainly is a huge improvement. Is there any information available with the schedule for when the tracks will be replaced? I know about the track closures thing on the TFL site, but presumably there are internal documents with a more complete schedule? I would love to know when they are going to start on the section between Finchley Road and Baker Street, its got to be the worst on the network

Someone at Metronet SSR must know, but its not in the LU staff domain (i.e. not on our intranet, I'm sure someone somewhere knows!). I must say it's been very piecemeal... to me it would have made sense to start at one end and end at the other, but its been bits & pieces all over the place, and not necessarily the worst bits first as you've noticed.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 11:41 PM   #3040
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Another question, how come Clapham Junction doesn't have a tube line run through it (considering how busy it is), and do you think it should? Following on from that, are there any plans to hook Clapham Junction up to the Tube?
'It just doesn't' is the trite unhelpful answer. To be honest it's not hugely busy in terms of people walking in off the street, it's busy in terms of people changing trains never leaving the station premises. It's always had very intensive services into Waterloo and Victoria so it's well served, and I fear because of the number of services stopping there a Tube line would be mobbed with customers choosing Clapham Junction to transfer between networks (similar to Vauxhall and Wimbledon).

There have no doubt been plans to link it to the Tube in the past, but evidently they've never come to fruition.
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