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Old November 17th, 2008, 11:43 PM   #3041
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Hey Tubeman,

I'm going to stay in London for eight weeks from the end of december till end of february. Is taking pictures of The Tube allowed inside stations and trains?

Thanks! Greetings from Brazil!
Hi Fred! You've certainly picked the gloomiest, coldest time of year to visit!

Technically you need a permit to take photos, but as long as you don't loiter too long anywhere with too professional looking a camera you'll be ok, and don't whatever you do commit the cardinal sin of taking a flash photo of the front of a train.
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Old November 17th, 2008, 11:51 PM   #3042
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'It just doesn't' is the trite unhelpful answer. To be honest it's not hugely busy in terms of people walking in off the street, it's busy in terms of people changing trains never leaving the station premises. It's always had very intensive services into Waterloo and Victoria so it's well served, and I fear because of the number of services stopping there a Tube line would be mobbed with customers choosing Clapham Junction to transfer between networks (similar to Vauxhall and Wimbledon).

There have no doubt been plans to link it to the Tube in the past, but evidently they've never come to fruition.
Yes I guess there's nothing really that obvious for it to link to anyway. You'd have to realign the Northern Line quite significantly to reach it, and I imagine you don't really want to flood that part of the Northern Line with a mass of new passengers.
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Old November 18th, 2008, 12:38 AM   #3043
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Hi Fred! You've certainly picked the gloomiest, coldest time of year to visit!

Technically you need a permit to take photos, but as long as you don't loiter too long anywhere with too professional looking a camera you'll be ok, and don't whatever you do commit the cardinal sin of taking a flash photo of the front of a train.
Just like here in my city. Is it too hard to get (the permit)?
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Old November 18th, 2008, 09:51 PM   #3044
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Just like here in my city. Is it too hard to get (the permit)?
I think it's only really aimed at 'proper' professionals, which is why I said if you don't start pointing too professional a camera about or hanging about in any location too long you'll be fine. Unless you get a real arsehole, the staff will leave you alone as long as you're not getting in anyone's way or pissing anyone off. I reckon setting up a tripod on a platform or in a passageway would be asking for trouble, and there is a blanket ban on flash photos (even though this is only actually to prevent people taking flash photos of the front of trains as they come into platforms because it blinds the driver).

So yeah, go for off-peak when it's quiet and there aren't too many staff about, and avoid a big flashy camera / tripod and you'll be fine without a permit.
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Old November 19th, 2008, 12:19 AM   #3045
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I think it's only really aimed at 'proper' professionals, which is why I said if you don't start pointing too professional a camera about or hanging about in any location too long you'll be fine. Unless you get a real arsehole, the staff will leave you alone as long as you're not getting in anyone's way or pissing anyone off. I reckon setting up a tripod on a platform or in a passageway would be asking for trouble, and there is a blanket ban on flash photos (even though this is only actually to prevent people taking flash photos of the front of trains as they come into platforms because it blinds the driver).

So yeah, go for off-peak when it's quiet and there aren't too many staff about, and avoid a big flashy camera / tripod and you'll be fine without a permit.


Ok! I'll follow your advices. Thanks!
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Old November 19th, 2008, 01:47 AM   #3046
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Just remember to post the pics here afterwards...
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Old November 19th, 2008, 12:57 PM   #3047
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Services were suspended Embankment to Whitechapel, so somewhere between there... All that filth is decades of ballast intermingled with all manner of dirt. The track is ripped up, all the old ballast is dug out, new ballast laid and new track with flat-bottomed rail on concrete sleepers laid. The improvement in ride quality is immense, they're slowly replacing all of the SSR tunnelled sections, probably more than halfway now.
Sweet, thanks for the explanation, makes sense!
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Old November 20th, 2008, 01:13 AM   #3048
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Just remember to post the pics here afterwards...
Sure, why not.
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Old November 21st, 2008, 01:08 AM   #3049
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ay tubeman, a weird question for you about station name influence. Basically was speaking to someone the other day and i asked them where they lived and they said Acton main line. To me that sounded weird that someone claimed to live on a railway track but obviously i knew what they ment. It got me thinking about people who say they live in clapham junction which also makes no sense. The only one that does and is elephant and castle but that's because that's the de facto name for the area. I was just wondering if you knew of anymore oddities, like for instance to do people around Angel say they live in angel or islington?? Strange question i know, but i wanted to guage your opinion, cheers tubeman.
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Old November 21st, 2008, 01:57 AM   #3050
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ay tubeman, a weird question for you about station name influence. Basically was speaking to someone the other day and i asked them where they lived and they said Acton main line. To me that sounded weird that someone claimed to live on a railway track but obviously i knew what they ment. It got me thinking about people who say they live in clapham junction which also makes no sense. The only one that does and is elephant and castle but that's because that's the de facto name for the area. I was just wondering if you knew of anymore oddities, like for instance to do people around Angel say they live in angel or islington?? Strange question i know, but i wanted to guage your opinion, cheers tubeman.
A few areas are named after their railway station, like Waterloo or Clapham Junction, but generally it's vice versa. Angel and Elephant & Castle are both named after pubs, and yes a lot of people say they live in 'Angel' because Islington is a very large area. I guess alot of people name their nearest Tube or railway station when describing where they live, but I certainly have never heard anyone referring the the area in which Acton Main Line is as 'Acton Main Line'... My friend from school lived just north of there off Horn Lane and always said 'Acton' or 'North Acton' but never 'Acton Main Line' even though that was by far his closest station. I've heard the environs of Clapham Junction referred to as 'Clapham Junction', 'The Junction' or 'Junction' quite often, which is a clear case of the station naming the area, not vice versa... This is again because Clapham is a large area and the Tube stations (North, South and Common), the mainline (Junction) and also Clapham Park are all referred to as discrete areas in my experience.

Other examples of stations naming the area are in the interwar suburbs where the railway preceded the housing, like Arnos Grove, Cockfosters, Colindale etc... I think some of these were named after the nearest farm to the station site.
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Old November 21st, 2008, 09:56 AM   #3051
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A few areas are named after their railway station, like Waterloo or Clapham Junction, but generally it's vice versa. Angel and Elephant & Castle are both named after pubs, and yes a lot of people say they live in 'Angel' because Islington is a very large area. I guess alot of people name their nearest Tube or railway station when describing where they live, but I certainly have never heard anyone referring the the area in which Acton Main Line is as 'Acton Main Line'... My friend from school lived just north of there off Horn Lane and always said 'Acton' or 'North Acton' but never 'Acton Main Line' even though that was by far his closest station. I've heard the environs of Clapham Junction referred to as 'Clapham Junction', 'The Junction' or 'Junction' quite often, which is a clear case of the station naming the area, not vice versa... This is again because Clapham is a large area and the Tube stations (North, South and Common), the mainline (Junction) and also Clapham Park are all referred to as discrete areas in my experience.

Other examples of stations naming the area are in the interwar suburbs where the railway preceded the housing, like Arnos Grove, Cockfosters, Colindale etc... I think some of these were named after the nearest farm to the station site.
clapham junction is in battersea though lol, and willesden junction is in harlesden, ont eh front of buses, it says harlesden willesden junction which is stupid imho.

It was a pretty dumb person who said they lived at acton main line tbf
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Old November 21st, 2008, 11:13 AM   #3052
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clapham junction is in battersea though lol, and willesden junction is in harlesden, ont eh front of buses, it says harlesden willesden junction which is stupid imho.

It was a pretty dumb person who said they lived at acton main line tbf

LOL yeah as if it's something to be bragging about! (At least it's better than South Acton!). And yeah I'd agree that Clapham Junction is in Battersea... even more evidence that the station named the area and not vice versa.
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 12:59 AM   #3053
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had a day off today, and had the old oyster weekly travel card so did abit of a random tour of london. This tour brought up a few questions

-Why the hell is the thameslink tunnel from st pancras to blackfriars so bloody slow
-Getting on at kentish town it also made me think that there are so many places where you can exit and enter the tube and effectively get a free journey, basically any station owned by NR or that has some sort of no ticket barrier link to it. Has TfL not thought of doing anything about this??
-Went to clapham north, and i changed my mind, i think that is the perfect tube station design (minus the narrow platform of course), Bright, and with a proper cross paltform, if only they could've built it wider, do you know why it was built so narrow??
-has there ever been plans to link regents park and great portland street, they are stupidly close?
-also what is the point of charing cross tube?? surely it should go back to it's pre jubilee line incarnation
-Another really extremely random question, i was just wondering why it was never thought of to link st pancras and kings cross properly into one station as part of the renovation works or ever? Even knock down the british library and add the WCML as well, would be a proper gateway to the north and they could truely banish euston to hell.

cheers tubeman

-
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 01:02 AM   #3054
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oh yeah, saw alot of freight trains especially aroudn lewisham, where exactly does the freight go to and from round there, and is that what stops more frequent trains in South east London, i thought it was only london overground that was majorly affected??
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 11:53 AM   #3055
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had a day off today, and had the old oyster weekly travel card so did abit of a random tour of london. This tour brought up a few questions
I used to do that in the Summer holidays

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-Why the hell is the thameslink tunnel from st pancras to blackfriars so bloody slow
Hmmm it'll be subject to speed restrictions of some sort, I guess in the region of 40mph which isn't slow slow, about the same as the parallel LU tunnel. It might just feel slower due to a smoother ride. The last bit up the hill from City to Blackfriars is slow because of the extreme gradient (about 1/30).

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-Getting on at kentish town it also made me think that there are so many places where you can exit and enter the tube and effectively get a free journey, basically any station owned by NR or that has some sort of no ticket barrier link to it. Has TfL not thought of doing anything about this??
Although access to FCC is 'free', there is definitely a ticket barrier at the top of the escalators to the Tube. Because of Oyster there isn't a single LU station without ticket barriers (to prevent unresolved journies).

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-Went to clapham north, and i changed my mind, i think that is the perfect tube station design (minus the narrow platform of course), Bright, and with a proper cross paltform, if only they could've built it wider, do you know why it was built so narrow??
It's ok as long as the station isn't too busy, but Euston and Angel had to be converted into 'conventional' station layouts because the platforms were simply too narrow. I guess the overall width of the station tunnel bore was restricted to the wdith of the road above by the then payments which had to be paid for building under private property. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the layout, it's quite common on other metros, but the island platforms on the former C&SLR were simply too narrow.

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-has there ever been plans to link regents park and great portland street, they are stupidly close?
No point really... the only reason for a linking subway would be for interchange, and that can be done one stop along at Baker Street so it wouldn't add much value for the customers.

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-also what is the point of charing cross tube?? surely it should go back to it's pre jubilee line incarnation
I agree. It should be split back into 2 separate stations and not shown as an interchange.

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-Another really extremely random question, i was just wondering why it was never thought of to link st pancras and kings cross properly into one station as part of the renovation works or ever? Even knock down the british library and add the WCML as well, would be a proper gateway to the north and they could truely banish euston to hell.
The ECML and Midland Mainline are on different levels on the approach to the termini, as the ECML tunnels under the Regents Canal whilst the Midland crosses over it just before the stations. I quite like the notion of having used the British Library site (a former Goods station anyway) as the WCML terminus creating a vast super station, but the logical diversionary route would be via Primrose Hill and the NLL, which would result in a lot of property destruction through Camden as the viaduct would need to be widened to at least 6, and ideally 8, tracks. This could be seriously balanced by the huge amount of land at Euston and its approaches that this would free up, and plus would allow for Eurostars to run straight up to Manchester, Birmingham, etc without having to squeeze through the 2 tracks at Camden Road along with all the LOROL and freight trains. In principle the 'Gateway to the north' station is a great idea
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 12:00 PM   #3056
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oh yeah, saw alot of freight trains especially aroudn lewisham, where exactly does the freight go to and from round there, and is that what stops more frequent trains in South east London, i thought it was only london overground that was majorly affected??
The South London Line is also a very heavily used cross-London freight artery, with the bulk of this traffic running through Nunhead and thence on to Lewisham. This is certainly a major factor in limiting passenger frequencies, the signalling is not as dense as a Tube line (normally just a 'Station starter' signal + 1 'running' signal halfway between stations), and this is mostly because the signalling has to take into account the different lengths and braking capacities of trains... Freight trains are often longer and take a longer distance to stop than EMUs and so signalling has to be sparse compared to a Tube line.
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 01:24 PM   #3057
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I used to do that in the Summer holidays
was an iteresting day until i ending up in croydon around school chucking out, Yobs, yobs and more yobs, police everywhere made me question if my area was that bad after school after all.


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Hmmm it'll be subject to speed restrictions of some sort, I guess in the region of 40mph which isn't slow slow, about the same as the parallel LU tunnel. It might just feel slower due to a smoother ride. The last bit up the hill from City to Blackfriars is slow because of the extreme gradient (about 1/30).
i dunno every tunnel i went in on national rail it fealt really slow, i don't know why. They also need a stop between kings cross and farringdon. that area has a load of estates around it, no wonder it's so isolated with no tube stop and being in central london.

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Although access to FCC is 'free', there is definitely a ticket barrier at the top of the escalators to the Tube. Because of Oyster there isn't a single LU station without ticket barriers (to prevent unresolved journies).
i mean if i was like a real scoundrel i could easily get around the tube without paying. Can use the dlr to get me on the network at straford, bank or canning town, and can get off the network somewhere like kentish town and take FCC to any ungated station which there are plenty. I dunno cricklewood to beckton could be done for free. Maybe TfL should think about Gating the massive multi mode interchanges and the major DLR stops along the lines of woolwich Arsenal.

That brings up another Question really, they are gating woolwich arsenal to stop fair evasion on the south eastern side, but 1. the south eastern side is only gated up till about 7-8pm, and 2. none of the other south eastern stations are gated round there so i can just hop on the train at plumstead, then hop over onto the DLR for free, i suprised they never thought about this.

Quote:
It's ok as long as the station isn't too busy, but Euston and Angel had to be converted into 'conventional' station layouts because the platforms were simply too narrow. I guess the overall width of the station tunnel bore was restricted to the wdith of the road above by the then payments which had to be paid for building under private property. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the layout, it's quite common on other metros, but the island platforms on the former C&SLR were simply too narrow.
does the TfL still have to pay for building under properties?? if so thats stupid and is obviously what drives up line costs. GOvernment should pass a spanish style law, that everything underground is national property and thus the government can do what it wishes with it.

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No point really... the only reason for a linking subway would be for interchange, and that can be done one stop along at Baker Street so it wouldn't add much value for the customers.
Then why not cut out regents park, i can see the merit of Great Portland street, but regents park is a joke, maybe cut it out and speed up journeys to paddington, which is so damn hard to get to/from.


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I agree. It should be split back into 2 separate stations and not shown as an interchange.
Maybe they are holding out for some sort of DLR extension before abandoning it

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The ECML and Midland Mainline are on different levels on the approach to the termini, as the ECML tunnels under the Regents Canal whilst the Midland crosses over it just before the stations. I quite like the notion of having used the British Library site (a former Goods station anyway) as the WCML terminus creating a vast super station, but the logical diversionary route would be via Primrose Hill and the NLL, which would result in a lot of property destruction through Camden as the viaduct would need to be widened to at least 6, and ideally 8, tracks. This could be seriously balanced by the huge amount of land at Euston and its approaches that this would free up, and plus would allow for Eurostars to run straight up to Manchester, Birmingham, etc without having to squeeze through the 2 tracks at Camden Road along with all the LOROL and freight trains. In principle the 'Gateway to the north' station is a great idea
just wish the victorians had foresight, they had it with victoria, but not with kings cross and st pancras, which i still find strange, i suppose i wasn't around when there was liverpool st and broad st also, but it's weird that they couldn't create supwe stations to serve their purpose.

Apparently DLR to victoria has jumped above Dagenham dock as the next extension. Apparently the route is gonna be some sort of express line, stopping at only ludgate circus, aldwych and charing cross, i was thinking, if they are going to do that, why don't they swap the district and DLR branches just before bank/monument?? Then run the District as an express to victoia and run the DLR stopping. would speed up journeys to the city from victoria, and the DLR when it's 6 cars would have similar capacity to the district and that line is slow anyway, wondering what your thoughts on that were??

cheers tubeman
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 02:20 PM   #3058
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Because of Oyster there isn't a single LU station without ticket barriers (to prevent unresolved journies).
Pedant Alert... Not all, West Harrow westbound doesn't! Bet there are a couple of others about like that too
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 02:48 PM   #3059
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Pedant Alert... Not all, West Harrow westbound doesn't! Bet there are a couple of others about like that too
finsbury park as well, for a station with 20+million people going through each year thats crazy
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Old November 22nd, 2008, 05:05 PM   #3060
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was an iteresting day until i ending up in croydon around school chucking out, Yobs, yobs and more yobs, police everywhere made me question if my area was that bad after school after all.
That'll teach you to go to Croydon!!!

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i dunno every tunnel i went in on national rail it fealt really slow, i don't know why. They also need a stop between kings cross and farringdon. that area has a load of estates around it, no wonder it's so isolated with no tube stop and being in central london.
I live on one of those estates! (Margery Street estate) ...And yes you're right, Kings X to Farringdon is far too long a gap between stations for central London. The reason why there is such a gap and probably nothing will ever be done about it is because the lines are in a 'real' tunnel at this point rather than cut & cover just below the ground, the tunnel begins just north of Lloyd Baker Street (behind the Travelodge) and ends where Farringdon Lane joins Farringdon Road (Betsy Trotswood pub), and burrows under a quite significant hill (Mount Pleasant). I don't know how deep the tracks are at Mount Pleasant (definitely the right location for the intermediate station), but I'd hazard a guess at 20-30 meteres, quite significant. Trying to insert a station here would be a nightmare: a huge 30m deep hole would need to be carved out down to the tops of the tunnels and broken through, the current tunnel walls destroyed, platforms inserted, then the new station encased in a concrete box and hole filled back in again. I'm no engineer, but I can't think of how else it could be done?

To be fair though Finsbury doesn't feel isolated, because the 38 and 19 buses bombing up and down Rosebery Avenue come every couple of minutes and get you to Tottenham Court Road in under 10 minutes... In fact I very rarely use the Tube outside of work, I prefer buses anyway!

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i mean if i was like a real scoundrel i could easily get around the tube without paying. Can use the dlr to get me on the network at straford, bank or canning town, and can get off the network somewhere like kentish town and take FCC to any ungated station which there are plenty. I dunno cricklewood to beckton could be done for free. Maybe TfL should think about Gating the massive multi mode interchanges and the major DLR stops along the lines of woolwich Arsenal.

That brings up another Question really, they are gating woolwich arsenal to stop fair evasion on the south eastern side, but 1. the south eastern side is only gated up till about 7-8pm, and 2. none of the other south eastern stations are gated round there so i can just hop on the train at plumstead, then hop over onto the DLR for free, i suprised they never thought about this.
Well I guess if you're really committed to the cause I guess free journies are possible, but obviously they aren't much use unless you live in Beckton and want to go to Cricklewood... and manage to avoid any revenue inspectors!

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does the TfL still have to pay for building under properties?? if so thats stupid and is obviously what drives up line costs. GOvernment should pass a spanish style law, that everything underground is national property and thus the government can do what it wishes with it.
No, it ended early in the 20th Century... Dunno which year though. All the Yerkes Tubes and the Central London and City & South London Railways stuck to the streets above, but by the time the Bakerloo was extended to Queen's Park in 1915 it just took the shortest route, so circa WW1 I guess?

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Then why not cut out regents park, i can see the merit of Great Portland street, but regents park is a joke, maybe cut it out and speed up journeys to paddington, which is so damn hard to get to/from.
It's not the busiest, but cutting it out would disadvantage, for example, someone travelling up from the south who wanted to get to Regent's Park, as otherwise they'd have to travel to Baker Street and change for an eastbound train to GPS.

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Maybe they are holding out for some sort of DLR extension before abandoning it
Probably, yes... I can't see the logic otherwise

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just wish the victorians had foresight, they had it with victoria, but not with kings cross and st pancras, which i still find strange, i suppose i wasn't around when there was liverpool st and broad st also, but it's weird that they couldn't create supwe stations to serve their purpose.
They were all in fierce competition with each other and in many cases actively tried to destroy each other. Even apparent acts of cooperation like Victoria station would have been beset by squabbles and underhand tactics.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
Apparently DLR to victoria has jumped above Dagenham dock as the next extension. Apparently the route is gonna be some sort of express line, stopping at only ludgate circus, aldwych and charing cross, i was thinking, if they are going to do that, why don't they swap the district and DLR branches just before bank/monument?? Then run the District as an express to victoia and run the DLR stopping. would speed up journeys to the city from victoria, and the DLR when it's 6 cars would have similar capacity to the district and that line is slow anyway, wondering what your thoughts on that were??
There is something to be said for that; DLR to Victoria, if it is significantly faster to The City than the District, would be mobbed from day one. Better to switch them around, provided it isn't too much of an engineering headache.
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