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Old December 10th, 2008, 04:11 PM   #3121
sotonsi
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Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I support them insofar I wouldn't complain if they were built, but I question their necessity / benefit vs the cost. I think as much can be achieved with upgrades of existing lines and junction remodellings.
You need a new line to the Birmingham area for capacity, but north of there, you could do a lot with short little stretches (eg to form a Stafford bypass, by building 2 mile of track around the south of Stone) of new standard track and junction upgrades. However you need more Birmingham-London capacity, and that's where HS2 comes in.

It's also as cheap to build new lines than as to upgrade old ones. Closures and restricted working times get annoying.

On the roads it's cheaper per-mile, but politically more difficult, to build a new 3-lane motorway than to widen an existing one properly to 4-lanes, with full hard shoulders.
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Old December 10th, 2008, 09:21 PM   #3122
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I'm not saying it won't be useful to some people, but you have based this on your perception of seeing people alight at Waterloo East. I am telling you that you cannot infer from that that it would be of benefit to most of those people to have direct service into the Waterloo south west mainlines.

I don't think you realise what it is that I'm saying.

Of course it would generate new journey opportunities, but it would not be a free lunch, reinstating the link would require more than just reinstating the link and all I'm trying to point out to you is that you have over-simplified the issue based on your perceptions of being on a train at a certain time once.
i get the train everyday and get off at waterloo east, at least once a week... lots of people go from the southeastern network to the south west trains network, it's an interchange for this very reason and IT IS very busy, if you want an argument, do it in private not on tubemans thread, tar
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Old December 10th, 2008, 11:53 PM   #3123
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Where would these people who interchange be going? Are they people who change going from the London Bridge area to the SWrn destinations? Or are they SErn people changing and going through to SWrn destinations?

Would better orbital links help - eg Lewisham to Clapham Junction (perhaps having ELLX phase 2 going somewhere else, and of course having Brockley and Brixton high level stations). They'd be a lot cheaper than the several hundred million plus that rebuilding the link, reorganising the Charing Cross line's tracks and building the flyover needed to get to Cannon Street would cost.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 01:21 AM   #3124
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well kingston, wimbledon, richmond are all places people work at in the suburbs. you have places like guildford and woking beyond.

i agree with you for once sotonsi, brixton high level, moving clapham high street to next to clapham north, brockley high level and loughborough high level should be built.

Personally i wouldve pumped all the ELLX money into taking all the freight of the orbirail and building the interchanges. even shoreditch high street.

But sotonsi network rail are looking at st pancrasing waterloo. lowerring the concourse, so having that through track could be done easily as part of the works.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 01:29 AM   #3125
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tubeman on a related note, the northern end of the high barnet branch platforms run pretty close to the north london line, or it looks like they do. Camden town needs a rebuild and the north london line has poor interchanges. i was in camden the other day and i looked on google images and the NLL viaduct is surrounded by a park on kentish town road. ok here is where i am leading.

1. why the hell don't they just quadruple the junction, the land is there, and it would solve the freight bottle neck, espcially with some sort of flying junction.

2. there is room to move the platforms over kentish town road, or extend them that way, then how possible would it be to link this to the northern end of those platforms. This would provide another exit for camden town and provide proper interchange.

3. i know these are costly but the money is there for the redevelop anyway and surely it would help the case of overground more.

Last edited by bigbossman; December 11th, 2008 at 01:39 AM.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 01:39 AM   #3126
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final questions tubeman cheers

it is on overground/orbirail, i love the premise but this is what i would've done differently. it goes through everywhere important in zone 2 except hackney and hammersmith (finsbury park should really be in 3).

-to serve hackney i was thinking, from whitchapel it couldve been diverted onto the lea valley viaduct, and round the graham curve. if the shenfield metro goes, capacity is created, as one of the lea valley lines could go up via stratford. It would then be able to interchange with the central at bethnal green stopping the need to build platforms at shroeditch high street.

-to serve hammersmith i was thinking the H & C viaduct could be shared from when the WLL crosses it to hammersmith. Then maybe a short tunnel under hammersmith to wandsworth town, then into clapham junction. Personally the busyness of hammersmith could justify a tunnel. i dunno

The only line it would miss then would be the piccadilly north on kings cross but that really can't be helped.

oh yeah and they could have for platforms at clapham junction and matbe H & I and run two overlapping services. H & I to H & I and CJ to CJ. Just some thoughts. obviously pipe dreams but just some thoughts

what do you think tubeman. and also how can they get the freight of these lines.

i was thinking the WLL they could divert it via acton central, chiswick and barnes with a few well placed curves???

also how did district line trains get through to windsor, did the shed they termiante in at ealing used to have through workings or has that wall always been there, was in E bdy today thats why??
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Old December 11th, 2008, 01:46 PM   #3127
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Off topic, and as as an ex-local... why would Finsbury Park have to be in zone 3, when zone 2 runs all the way to Stamford Brook and Acton in the west for example, and Willesden Junction in the north-west... all much further away from Central London.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 02:23 PM   #3128
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Off topic, and as as an ex-local... why would Finsbury Park have to be in zone 3, when zone 2 runs all the way to Stamford Brook and Acton in the west for example, and Willesden Junction in the north-west... all much further away from Central London.
i didn't mean it like that, it's not on the orbirail alignment is all, so it doesn't feel as zone 2 as the other places, it should be be zone 2/3 really for interchange purposes, like north acton/turnham green etc
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Old December 11th, 2008, 03:42 PM   #3129
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
if you want an argument, do it in private not on tubemans thread, tar
To be honest mate you're having an argument with yourself as you create a false binary in every conversation. Forgive me for bringing some practical considerations to the table. In this and the other thread I'm going to leave you to it.

Tubeman my apologies. I think I need to brig myself and rediscover the real world for a week
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Old December 11th, 2008, 06:41 PM   #3130
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Originally Posted by elfabyanos View Post
To be honest mate you're having an argument with yourself as you create a false binary in every conversation. Forgive me for bringing some practical considerations to the table. In this and the other thread I'm going to leave you to it.

Tubeman my apologies. I think I need to brig myself and rediscover the real world for a week
you know what i did write a proper reply to you, but that was clearly what you were aiming for, grow up mate!

You started all this by criticising my question to tubeman, i didn't ask your opinion, i asked tubemans, your attitude stinks mate and your attempts at sarcasm and degredation don't cover up the fact that all you want to do is disagree with people (and i include myself in that)!

Last edited by bigbossman; December 11th, 2008 at 06:53 PM.
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Old December 11th, 2008, 07:52 PM   #3131
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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
i didn't mean it like that, it's not on the orbirail alignment is all, so it doesn't feel as zone 2 as the other places, it should be be zone 2/3 really for interchange purposes, like north acton/turnham green etc
Alright don't worry. but it's pretty obvious the orbirail is going to run a lot closer to central London in certain places (Camden, Shoreditch) than it does in others, such as Willesden and Denmark Hill.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 07:39 PM   #3132
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well kingston, wimbledon, richmond are all places people work at in the suburbs. you have places like guildford and woking beyond.
but how many people go there? Richmond wouldn't be served by such a link anyway. Not how all are south of CJ - a CJ-Lewisham service would be cheaper, even with the interchanges and would cover all the inside London journeys. Outside London journeys would be very rare - Guildford and Woking would have people changing anyway to fast trains.
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But sotonsi network rail are looking at st pancrasing waterloo. lowerring the concourse, so having that through track could be done easily as part of the works.
yes it could (those works cost £1billion - very expensive, hence why Euston's plans have leapfrogged them in the queue), however you still have Borough Market 3rd viaduct (and rebuild of London Bridge, whoops, back to the drawing board - they won't redo it only a few years after redoing it!) or a Metropolitan Junction Flyover into Cannon Street.

As for a full orbital rail service - complete mistake. A series of tangental services, that overlap, would be better. No one would want to go more than a third of the way around.

Whitechapel to Lea Valley slows was a proposal at one point. Shoreditch would have been scrapped and a linking tunnel built, so the Liverpool Street tracks were avoided. I think it was mostly for freight, though it may have been for Palace Gates to New Cross services.
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Old December 12th, 2008, 08:14 PM   #3133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
Off topic, and as as an ex-local... why would Finsbury Park have to be in zone 3, when zone 2 runs all the way to Stamford Brook and Acton in the west for example, and Willesden Junction in the north-west... all much further away from Central London.
The zones are elliptical, i.e. are shorter on the north-south axis than the east-west axis, because this is the overall shape of London and the CBD. This means somewhere like Finsbury Park, due north of The City, is in zone 3 despite being closer to Central London than places due west of it like Turnham Green which lies on the boundary.

Sort of unfair, bet hey
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Old December 12th, 2008, 08:47 PM   #3134
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final questions tubeman cheers

it is on overground/orbirail, i love the premise but this is what i would've done differently. it goes through everywhere important in zone 2 except hackney and hammersmith (finsbury park should really be in 3).

-to serve hackney i was thinking, from whitchapel it couldve been diverted onto the lea valley viaduct, and round the graham curve. if the shenfield metro goes, capacity is created, as one of the lea valley lines could go up via stratford. It would then be able to interchange with the central at bethnal green stopping the need to build platforms at shroeditch high street.
Do you propose this instead of taking over the Broad Street viaduct? I'd be against this if that was the case, purely because the biggest selling point of the East London Line extension to me is the stations at Hoxton and Haggerston, currently in areas devoid of any railway access as bad as anywhere in Central London. Interestingly however the linkage you propose was half-built, as well as the eventual Liverpool St facing junction there was supposed to be a spur linking up with the GER between Bethnal Green and Cambridge Heath, but aside from the cutting running up as far as the GER mainline (which housed two sidings for a number of years), the costly remainder of the spur (rising from cutting to viaduct through dense East End housing) was never built. One other flaw is that the two Bethnal Greens are not interchange distance apart, probably 5-10 minutes walk.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
-to serve hammersmith i was thinking the H & C viaduct could be shared from when the WLL crosses it to hammersmith. Then maybe a short tunnel under hammersmith to wandsworth town, then into clapham junction. Personally the busyness of hammersmith could justify a tunnel. i dunno
This would add yet another branch to the LORO network, not too sure if it would be viable considering a pretty hefty new spur would need to be built.

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The only line it would miss then would be the piccadilly north on kings cross but that really can't be helped.
Re-opening York Road and Maiden Lane stations could provide the interchange, but the disbenefit would be slower journey times on the respective lines.

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Originally Posted by bigbossman View Post
oh yeah and they could have for platforms at clapham junction and matbe H & I and run two overlapping services. H & I to H & I and CJ to CJ. Just some thoughts. obviously pipe dreams but just some thoughts
I've always preferred the notion of running 'Orbirail' as a Clapham Jcn to Clapham Jcn service via the West, North, East and South London Lines overlaid with a service direct off the WLL onto the SLL avoiding Clapham (not through choice as such, this is just the layout of the area).

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what do you think tubeman. and also how can they get the freight of these lines.

i was thinking the WLL they could divert it via acton central, chiswick and barnes with a few well placed curves???
Actually the WLL as a through freight route could be made totally defunct via existing metals, but there would be a couple of pretty circuitous routes involved, and these are over 2-track largely passenger lines so you'd move the problem from one route onto another.

e.g. to get from the WCML to the SWT mainline through Wimbledon the obvious current route is via the WLL, but it is possible via Acton Canal Wharf Jcn, Acton Central, Kew Bridge, Barnes, Clapham Jcn, Brixton, Herne Hill, Streatham & Tooting.

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also how did district line trains get through to windsor, did the shed they termiante in at ealing used to have through workings or has that wall always been there, was in E bdy today thats why??
Bear in mind when the MDR ran to Windsor, there was no Central Line, so the MDR terminated where the Central Line platforms are now. There was simply a link between the GWR and MDR allowing through running; the trainshed at Ealing Broadway is relatively recent (1920's).
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Old December 12th, 2008, 09:14 PM   #3135
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Do you propose this instead of taking over the Broad Street viaduct? I'd be against this if that was the case, purely because the biggest selling point of the East London Line extension to me is the stations at Hoxton and Haggerston, currently in areas devoid of any railway access as bad as anywhere in Central London. Interestingly however the linkage you propose was half-built, as well as the eventual Liverpool St facing junction there was supposed to be a spur linking up with the GER between Bethnal Green and Cambridge Heath, but aside from the cutting running up as far as the GER mainline (which housed two sidings for a number of years), the costly remainder of the spur (rising from cutting to viaduct through dense East End housing) was never built. One other flaw is that the two Bethnal Greens are not interchange distance apart, probably 5-10 minutes walk.
Yes i'd run the DLR up the broad street viaduct from bank personally

I meant the Lea valley lines actually run over bethnal green tube station, so they could just build platforms there instead, and maybe have lifts down to ticket office level...



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This would add yet another branch to the LORO network, not too sure if it would be viable considering a pretty hefty new spur would need to be built.
i mean drop the west london line from it and run all trains via the route i suggested, i know it would be a quite hefty, but hammersmith to clapham junction could be a very viable route.

it also serves the picc and district

then run the richmonds as a spur just from richmond to willesden or round the dudden to the goblin


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Re-opening York Road and Maiden Lane stations could provide the interchange, but the disbenefit would be slower journey times on the respective lines.
i agree i don't think they should, just an unfortunate miss


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I've always preferred the notion of running 'Orbirail' as a Clapham Jcn to Clapham Jcn service via the West, North, East and South London Lines overlaid with a service direct off the WLL onto the SLL avoiding Clapham (not through choice as such, this is just the layout of the area).
thats why i suggested going via hammersmith and approaching clapham junction from the west, then onto the south london line.

i like the idea of going through the junction


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Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Actually the WLL as a through freight route could be made totally defunct via existing metals, but there would be a couple of pretty circuitous routes involved, and these are over 2-track largely passenger lines so you'd move the problem from one route onto another.



e.g. to get from the WCML to the SWT mainline through Wimbledon the obvious current route is via the WLL, but it is possible via Acton Canal Wharf Jcn, Acton Central, Kew Bridge, Barnes, Clapham Jcn, Brixton, Herne Hill, Streatham & Tooting.
thats what i thought, surely it should be done.

i was looking at the north london line, surely the dudden hill loop and goblin can take it all off that line??


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Bear in mind when the MDR ran to Windsor, there was no Central Line, so the MDR terminated where the Central Line platforms are now. There was simply a link between the GWR and MDR allowing through running; the trainshed at Ealing Broadway is relatively recent (1920's).
i didn't know that, it looks really old thats why

you missed my Questions about camden btw tubeman cheers

Last edited by bigbossman; December 12th, 2008 at 09:58 PM.
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Old December 14th, 2008, 06:18 PM   #3136
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tubeman another question is the link between the circle and liverpool street still there?? If it is can it still be used?? cheers tubeman...
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Old December 16th, 2008, 08:30 PM   #3137
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tubeman another question is the link between the circle and liverpool street still there?? If it is can it still be used?? cheers tubeman...
No, the tunnel was completely obliterated and the concourse filled in at Liverpool Street (the lines uses to run straight across the concourse to platforms 1 & 2, crossed by a footbridge). Would be very difficult to re-establish.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 09:05 PM   #3138
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tubeman on a related note, the northern end of the high barnet branch platforms run pretty close to the north london line, or it looks like they do. Camden town needs a rebuild and the north london line has poor interchanges. i was in camden the other day and i looked on google images and the NLL viaduct is surrounded by a park on kentish town road. ok here is where i am leading.

1. why the hell don't they just quadruple the junction, the land is there, and it would solve the freight bottle neck, espcially with some sort of flying junction.

2. there is room to move the platforms over kentish town road, or extend them that way, then how possible would it be to link this to the northern end of those platforms. This would provide another exit for camden town and provide proper interchange.

3. i know these are costly but the money is there for the redevelop anyway and surely it would help the case of overground more.
I agree with both of these: the length of double track, or rather double track viaduct, is really short and although a couple of properties would need to be demolished, the benefit is enrmous... and I'd argue it's absolutely vital if any through services are ever to be run off HS1 to the WCML: squeezing LORO and international trains plus heavy freight usage through a 2-track bottleneck would be insane.

I also like the idea of creating a new entrance to Camden Town at the north end of the Barnet branch platforms, but to provide a decent interchange Camden Road would have to be moved west, or at least a new entrance provided at the west end of the platforms because the north end of camden Town barnet branch platforms are still a fair distance away from the entrance to Camden Road.
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Old December 16th, 2008, 09:40 PM   #3139
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What ever happened to the suffix & Oxey to Bushey's station name? Plus, are more than four standing passengers permitted on the double-deckers there?
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Old December 17th, 2008, 01:07 PM   #3140
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Trying to do an advanced search on TFL for traveling on Boxing day, says it will be available mid December, do you know exactly when this is? Does the tube run on boxing day but at a reduced service? I need to get to Heathrow from Mile End (pain arghhhh).
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