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Old January 4th, 2009, 05:23 AM   #3221
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1) On the longest / fastest stretch (Seven Sisters to Finsbury Park SB) the 67 stock currently hit around 47 mph... this is very fast for deep-level Tube (it's very rare for deep-level Tube trains to hit 40mph between stations, and 30mph is more usual). The JLE manages over 50mph but benefits from much better track (continuously welded flat bottom rail, concreted in sleepers with shock absorption), I think unless the entire Victoria Line was radically overhauled, 50mph is about as fast as it will comfortably get.
Does that mean all this time/money has been spent on making the track not that much better...? I thought the upgrades would bring the track to JLE standards!
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Old January 4th, 2009, 12:15 PM   #3222
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cheers tubeman

did the north kent line used to be quad track between woolwich Arsenal and Dartford? it looks so... if so why doesn't crossrail use that alignment to get that far?

Don't think so... What makes you think it was?
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Old January 4th, 2009, 12:16 PM   #3223
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Does that mean all this time/money has been spent on making the track not that much better...? I thought the upgrades would bring the track to JLE standards!
I don't think so... It will of course be improved, but it will never be up to JLE standards
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Old January 4th, 2009, 04:57 PM   #3224
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Don't think so... What makes you think it was?
It is very wide between woolwich and Erith (easily wide enough for 4 tracks) and all the road arches from woolwich to Erith are triple, 2 side arches and a Large central one, and it's overgrown rather than a cutting, and there is a car park next to the platforms at woolwich where it looks like a track used to run into and platforms used to be... i'll see if i can find a picture
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Old January 4th, 2009, 04:59 PM   #3225
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Newer tube lines have less stations i was thinking if the lines currently existing were built today what stations would've been given a wide birth??

I reckon they woul've consolidated the claphams into one (clapham common maybe), and kennington would be oval, maybe no Lambeth North
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Old January 4th, 2009, 08:23 PM   #3226
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It is very wide between woolwich and Erith (easily wide enough for 4 tracks) and all the road arches from woolwich to Erith are triple, 2 side arches and a Large central one, and it's overgrown rather than a cutting, and there is a car park next to the platforms at woolwich where it looks like a track used to run into and platforms used to be... i'll see if i can find a picture

There was a huge network of industrial railways in the Erith area, and goods yards at Woolwich Arsenal and at Belevdere plus a siding serving the power station north of there. I don't think the route has ever been quadruple, although there may well have been various sidings parallel to the main line here and there. Quite often when a new railway was built, there was a bit of foresight employed with overbridges built to accommodate possible future tracks or new overbridges built with spare arches.

Former goods yards, like the one at Woolwich, are easy to spot as they almost invariably have ended up as station car parks: they serve the purpose well as they're usually long and thin sites behind a passenger platform with road access. Next time you travel on the mainline anywhere keep an eye out, if there's a car park behind a platform, it probably used to be that station's goods yard. You'll probably also be able to make out where the rail access was too.
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Old January 4th, 2009, 08:30 PM   #3227
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Newer tube lines have less stations i was thinking if the lines currently existing were built today what stations would've been given a wide birth??

I reckon they woul've consolidated the claphams into one (clapham common maybe), and kennington would be oval, maybe no Lambeth North
One of the reasons is that when they were first planned, the Yerkes Tube lines were not envisaged to have ended up as long as they did and so stations were more densely built like the Paris Metro. Many bit the dust a long time ago (York Road, South Kentish Town, Brompton Road, Down Street etc)... I guess Lambeth North, Hyde Park Corner, one of the Claphams and perhaps a couple of others wouldn't be built if the lines were built from scratch today, but in general deep-level Tube stations are pretty well used and so their existence can be justified.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 08:45 PM   #3228
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tubeman i've looked on the internet but can't find anywhere which says why the front of NR trains have to be yellow... shed some light please? and why doesn't the tube have to be?
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Old January 5th, 2009, 08:46 PM   #3229
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One of the reasons is that when they were first planned, the Yerkes Tube lines were not envisaged to have ended up as long as they did and so stations were more densely built like the Paris Metro. Many bit the dust a long time ago (York Road, South Kentish Town, Brompton Road, Down Street etc)... I guess Lambeth North, Hyde Park Corner, one of the Claphams and perhaps a couple of others wouldn't be built if the lines were built from scratch today, but in general deep-level Tube stations are pretty well used and so their existence can be justified.
Is Arsenal station actually busy outside of matchdays?? most oddly placed station i think, along with barons court...
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Old January 5th, 2009, 08:49 PM   #3230
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There was a huge network of industrial railways in the Erith area, and goods yards at Woolwich Arsenal and at Belevdere plus a siding serving the power station north of there. I don't think the route has ever been quadruple, although there may well have been various sidings parallel to the main line here and there. Quite often when a new railway was built, there was a bit of foresight employed with overbridges built to accommodate possible future tracks or new overbridges built with spare arches.

Former goods yards, like the one at Woolwich, are easy to spot as they almost invariably have ended up as station car parks: they serve the purpose well as they're usually long and thin sites behind a passenger platform with road access. Next time you travel on the mainline anywhere keep an eye out, if there's a car park behind a platform, it probably used to be that station's goods yard. You'll probably also be able to make out where the rail access was too.

does that mean freight trains used to stop at every station distributing goods?

Also there is a disused bay platfrorm at plumstead, the one thing i don't get is why on the south eastern network all the bay platforms are on the up side, so trains have to cross conflicting traffic to get to them, same at gillingham... any ideas??

South west and southern have flying junctions all over the show, south eastern don't hence why our service is probably the worst??
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Old January 5th, 2009, 09:40 PM   #3231
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tubeman i've looked on the internet but can't find anywhere which says why the front of NR trains have to be yellow... shed some light please? and why doesn't the tube have to be?
It's for visibility, for track workers. Yellow is the caution colour on the railway (e.g. a yellow flag means slow to caution speed). It must be mandatory as I can't think of a single NR stock without it, but bizarrely LU 72 and D Stocks are merrily allowed to run over NR with red fronts... This is obviously deemed acceptable... even odder before the 72 stock refurb, they ran over NR metals with a bare aluminium finish, so I don't understand why the exception was made at a time when all BR trains had yellow ends. The D Stock on the other hand, before refurb, always had half the cab painted red on an otherwise bare aluminium body.

It is weird.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 09:48 PM   #3232
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Is Arsenal station actually busy outside of matchdays?? most oddly placed station i think, along with barons court...
Not really, it's a fairly densely populated area of terraces but as it's tucked away on a backstreet and has no buses serving it, it is strangely located as you say. The reason being that it was built with the first wave of Yerkes Tubes in the 1900's, when the insane tax had to be paid for tunnelling under property. In general this means that the Yerkes Tubes and their predescessors had to generally follow main roads, but the Piccadilly Line north of King's Cross was built directly under the GNR main line. This was fine as stations were built where the GNR line crossed main roads (Cally Rd, Holloway Rd, Finsbury Pk), but there was no main road crossed between Holloway Rd and Finsbury Park so the station was sited on a little backstreet called Gillespie Road (the original name of the station). I seriously doubt that the station would have survived beyond the 1930's closures if it were not for the proximity of Highbury stadium (R.I.P.).

Baron's Court is somewhat oddly located too, but it has a very dense catchment area... West Ken always felt less busy despite being on a more major Road (North End Road).
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Old January 5th, 2009, 10:52 PM   #3233
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Not really, it's a fairly densely populated area of terraces but as it's tucked away on a backstreet and has no buses serving it, it is strangely located as you say. The reason being that it was built with the first wave of Yerkes Tubes in the 1900's, when the insane tax had to be paid for tunnelling under property. In general this means that the Yerkes Tubes and their predescessors had to generally follow main roads, but the Piccadilly Line north of King's Cross was built directly under the GNR main line. This was fine as stations were built where the GNR line crossed main roads (Cally Rd, Holloway Rd, Finsbury Pk), but there was no main road crossed between Holloway Rd and Finsbury Park so the station was sited on a little backstreet called Gillespie Road (the original name of the station). I seriously doubt that the station would have survived beyond the 1930's closures if it were not for the proximity of Highbury stadium (R.I.P.).
.
So how do people in Highbury get around, I wonder? They sure aren't using Drayton Park either! Finsbury Park or just Highbury & Islington?

Why do you think Essex Road is so lightly used as well? It's got a good number of people and businesses around there, a decent frequency and a good number of bus lines going past it.
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Old January 5th, 2009, 11:05 PM   #3234
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So how do people in Highbury get around, I wonder? They sure aren't using Drayton Park either! Finsbury Park or just Highbury & Islington?

Why do you think Essex Road is so lightly used as well? It's got a good number of people and businesses around there, a decent frequency and a good number of bus lines going past it.
maybe because essex road goes the wrong way it' easier to get into the west end by bus you'll have to change twice to get in to the west end by train, or go back up to H & I, then you might've well just walked or got the bus there.

Also that area is a dump although that is irrelevant!
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Old January 6th, 2009, 12:36 AM   #3235
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does that mean freight trains used to stop at every station distributing goods?

Also there is a disused bay platfrorm at plumstead, the one thing i don't get is why on the south eastern network all the bay platforms are on the up side, so trains have to cross conflicting traffic to get to them, same at gillingham... any ideas??

South west and southern have flying junctions all over the show, south eastern don't hence why our service is probably the worst??
Freight services used to be timetabled just like passenger services... And yes a couple of times each day trains would call at each goods station and couple up to wagons (often involving complicated shunting moves), and then proceed to the nearest marshalling yard and drop them off, before returning to the individual goods stations with inward goods. The nearest marshalling yard to you was the huge Hither Green Yard, now EMU sidings with some civil engineers sidings. In the marshalling yards these wagons were sorted into trains which then ran between marshalling yards, thus distributing goods across the country. Other big London yards were Temple Mills, Feltham, Cricklewood and Harringay (pretty much one for each region). This system of goods distribution was a post-WW2 invention, and sadly had all but disappeared by 1970... A lot of the giant yards like Whitemoor (March, Cambs.), Margam (S Wales) and Kingmoor (Carlisle) were only a few years old before being made redundant.

This is the vast Kingmoor Yard upon opening in 1963, it only lasted 9 years

[IMG]http://i41.************/4hfhib.jpg[/IMG]
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Old January 6th, 2009, 04:03 PM   #3236
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wow that's one huge expansive of tracks and nothing else...

question tubeman- DLR is the DLR now more heavy rail than light? should it drop the light from it's name, to get rid of the toytown image it still has with some?
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Old January 6th, 2009, 06:16 PM   #3237
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Also there is a disused bay platfrorm at plumstead, the one thing i don't get is why on the south eastern network all the bay platforms are on the up side, so trains have to cross conflicting traffic to get to them, same at gillingham... any ideas?
Sorry didn't address this one

I guess the bays are on the 'up' so that if a train were departing from them, any London-bound passengers would easily be able to board the train (if it were on the down they'd have to cross over from the up). The conflicting movement thing isn't an issue really, as bay platforms cause a conflicting movement regardless... A reversing down train fouls the up line entering an up side bay, but by the same token if the bay were on the down side then the down line would be fouled as an up train departed (if that makes any sense!?). Swings and roundabouts!
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Old January 6th, 2009, 06:22 PM   #3238
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So how do people in Highbury get around, I wonder? They sure aren't using Drayton Park either! Finsbury Park or just Highbury & Islington?
Yes, the Victoria Line is very attractive due to fast journey times. plenty of people probably walk past Arsenal or Drayton Park to get to either Highbury or Finsbury Park. The 19 bus is also well patronised as a route into The West End.

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Why do you think Essex Road is so lightly used as well? It's got a good number of people and businesses around there, a decent frequency and a good number of bus lines going past it.
Similarly the 38 bus provides a very frequent and pretty quick journey into the West End from there, and there are buses direct into The City too. I don't think Essex Road has a Tube frequency 'turn up and go' service, and only has direct trains to the edge of The City (Moorgate). It's a bit of a slummy area too, definitely the rougher end of Islington... Not too many City gents in the immediate area compared to areas of Islington like Angel and Barnsbury.
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Old January 6th, 2009, 06:28 PM   #3239
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wow that's one huge expansive of tracks and nothing else...

question tubeman- DLR is the DLR now more heavy rail than light? should it drop the light from it's name, to get rid of the toytown image it still has with some?
I've never really understood the distinction. All I can see really is that the DLR has tighter radius curves than NR or LU and steeper gradients, but certainly the original core is mostly ex-British Rail alignments.

I doubt the trains are significantly 'lighter' than a modern Tube stock of equivalent length.

Certainly the DLR would be considered a 'Metro' anywhere else... 'Light rail' to me is Manchester Metrolink... But I don't want to get into that debate here!
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Old January 6th, 2009, 06:48 PM   #3240
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I don't think Essex Road has a Tube frequency 'turn up and go' service, and only has direct trains to the edge of The City (Moorgate).
it's turn up and go (when running), but not really 'tube frequency' (which is quite vague). IIRC it's either 6 or 8 tph.

Only having trains to the city is a problem, though Chelney would mean that it becomes a busy station - the business case (for more than just interchange) seems to be there, even though it's a bit to the north of the straight line route.

If the Northern Heights had been built, and you had LUL services running at higher frequencies, then the station would be busier.

Even, when the GN&C was the Northern line shuttle, and cut off at Drayton Park, it was busy in the peaks - the devastation of the Moorgate crash shows how it was busy even when a little stub, really only serving Essex Road, Drayton Park and Highbury & Islington (which also had the Victoria line).
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