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Old January 10th, 2009, 10:50 AM   #3301
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bigbossman - do you know what it is that restricts the number of cars on the tunnel to 6? is it the station lengths?

If it was, then I would be in favour of re-doing the stations at the same time, particularly since it would seem likely that the Moorgate stations would have to be lower, or on a different alignment anyway. I quite like the idea of joining at Cannon Street. It would cause chaos while they build it, but to have a Cannon Street-Bank station would be a pretty useful station, with links to Dartford, Hayes, Hertford etc. I guess you could perhaps still terminate some trains at the original Cannon Street station (you wouldn't need the entire width for these tunnels) in the event of issues/engineering work. Imagine trying to thread these new tunnels past all the others! Nightmare.
In a similar vein a hugely disruptive idea I had was to bury all of the overhead lines on the South Bank. It's not a crazy as it sounds; the viaducts into Charing Cross, Waterloo, Blackfriars, Cannon Street and London Bridge take up a lot of prime real estate and are pretty unsightly. Instead, tunnel portals could be built north of Vauxhall, Bermondsey and Elephant & Castle and cut & cover tunnels built alongside the current elevated routes to take the routes into new subterranean termini, it may even pay for itself with the amount of real estate released aside from the aesthetic benefit of removing all the viaducts and bridges over The Thames. This would make a Cannon Street to Moorgate link more realistic.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 10:53 AM   #3302
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It is probably covered elswhere but how does one buy/order a copy?
Amazon... Search for 'London Railway Atlas', Author 'Joe Brown'

It's in the LTM bookshop, plus most large bookstores in London (and other UK cities too, so I've been told by my spies). You'd be getting the first edition if you bought it now though, which isn't as detailed as the extract I posted.
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Old January 10th, 2009, 10:56 AM   #3303
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..and sotonsi, bigboss please stop bickering *yawn*
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Old January 12th, 2009, 01:56 AM   #3304
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I have a question regarding the tunnel for 'Thameslink 2000', the one north of St Pancras which links to the ECML. Do you know if it is a flying junction or a flat junction?

Thanks for any replies.
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Old January 12th, 2009, 11:00 AM   #3305
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I have a question regarding the tunnel for 'Thameslink 2000', the one north of St Pancras which links to the ECML. Do you know if it is a flying junction or a flat junction?

Thanks for any replies.
It's 'flying' at the St Pancras end (the descending ramps either side are quite visible just north of the platforms), but 'flat' where it joins the ECML under the NLL viaduct.
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Old January 12th, 2009, 01:00 PM   #3306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
It's 'flying' at the St Pancras end (the descending ramps either side are quite visible just north of the platforms), but 'flat' where it joins the ECML under the NLL viaduct.
Considering it's underground, does this terminology apply? Would you say that every grade-separated junction is 'flying' and vice versa?
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Old January 12th, 2009, 02:39 PM   #3307
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Considering it's underground, does this terminology apply? Would you say that every grade-separated junction is 'flying' and vice versa?
I see no problem referring to subterranean grade separated junctions as 'flying', personally
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Old January 13th, 2009, 04:10 AM   #3308
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Quote:
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It's 'flying' at the St Pancras end (the descending ramps either side are quite visible just north of the platforms), but 'flat' where it joins the ECML under the NLL viaduct.
I always wondered what that area north of that station was, I thought it was space to extend the platforms! Do you know if track has been laid yet?
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Old January 13th, 2009, 03:11 PM   #3309
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Quote:
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I see no problem referring to subterranean grade separated junctions as 'flying', personally
But not all above ground junctions are flying - some are 'burrowing'. This one is burrowing in both ways...

You could count it as flying if it would be a flying junction (ie the diverging tracks fly over, rather than burrow under, the other tracks) above ground.
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Old January 13th, 2009, 04:15 PM   #3310
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I always wondered what that area north of that station was, I thought it was space to extend the platforms! Do you know if track has been laid yet?
Nope, not yet. I don't know why it wasn't just done all in one go, now there's going to be two further possessions to create the junctions at each end and string up the OHLE, seems a bit pointless.
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Old January 13th, 2009, 04:18 PM   #3311
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But not all above ground junctions are flying - some are 'burrowing'. This one is burrowing in both ways...

You could count it as flying if it would be a flying junction (ie the diverging tracks fly over, rather than burrow under, the other tracks) above ground.
Flying... Burrowing... whatever. I'd never given it that much thought, personally!
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Old January 13th, 2009, 05:03 PM   #3312
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Flying... Burrowing... whatever. I'd never given it that much thought, personally!
it was me being a pedant. 'flying' got the meaning across fine.

Personally I just use grade-separated all the time.

As for another possession, it's quite ridiculous - the last blockade took an age and they should have done the junctions and stuff, even if they didn't do the rest.

This time it's worse, though it'll be a lot shorter, as you'd be unable to walk between the two sections (though it was still a trek then).
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Old January 15th, 2009, 01:57 PM   #3313
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Tubeman,

With the Farringdon - Moorgate line being withdrawn from Thameslink services, how would you like to see that real estate used? Is there anything that can be done to assist the running of the SSLs by creating turnbacks/sidings?

On a slightly different note, is it absolutely impossible to grade separate the worst of the junctions on the SSLs? it struck me that the widened lines when built in the 1860s included a grade separated crossover just before Farringdon - is this an example of Victorian forethought?
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Old January 15th, 2009, 10:19 PM   #3314
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Tubeman,

With the Farringdon - Moorgate line being withdrawn from Thameslink services, how would you like to see that real estate used? Is there anything that can be done to assist the running of the SSLs by creating turnbacks/sidings?

On a slightly different note, is it absolutely impossible to grade separate the worst of the junctions on the SSLs? it struck me that the widened lines when built in the 1860s included a grade separated crossover just before Farringdon - is this an example of Victorian forethought?
One thought I had was to separate the Metropolitan Line completely by having it head due south-east from Baker Street in a new deep level tube to Tottenham Court Rd, where it would follow the Crossrail 1 alignment before surfacing to re-join the abandoned route between Farringdon and Moorgate to terminate.

Using the abandoned line for any sort of express / local separation is pointless as the only station that can be missed out is Barbican... I guess a central turnback siding accessed from both ended could be built between, say, Barbican and Moorgate... But I don't know how useful it would be.

In engineering terms all of the flat junctions could be remodelled, but at a high cost, some would be very tricky to engineer I guess. The 'Ray Street Gridiron' was a nifty piece of Victorian engineering, and one of the very earliest examples of a diveunder. It was foresight, and has ended up being vital in separating the LU and NR routes, but when built it was all Metropolitan Railway property.
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Old January 16th, 2009, 12:27 AM   #3315
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The best idea for the disused Thameslink tracks, which are too short and too high to really be used by any new line, is to turn Barbican into a non-conflicting turnback facility (from either direction). If you play about with Moorgate station, changing the layout then you can have that as the turnback from the west.
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Old January 16th, 2009, 08:37 AM   #3316
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I know it'd cost a ridiculous amount of money, but I'd say: 4 track Paddington - Farringdon and extend and improve the Edgware Road - Wimbledon service. Then the Hammersmith and Circle idea may actualy work.
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Old January 16th, 2009, 11:03 AM   #3317
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I know it'd cost a ridiculous amount of money, but I'd say: 4 track Paddington - Farringdon and extend and improve the Edgware Road - Wimbledon service. Then the Hammersmith and Circle idea may actualy work.
I'd rather just have my 'Super Circle' and be done with it: scrap the current Circle Line altogether and have a deep-level Tube Circle calling at all the main termini. Wimbleware would just be a H&C Line branch then. The only 'loss' really would be the link between High St Ken and Gloucester Road: perhaps the original layout between Gloucteser Road and South Ken could be restored with 2 parallel pairs of tracks and 2 terminal platforms at South Ken, so High Street Ken to South ken could operate as a short branch off the Wimbleware H&C branch?

The three H&C services could be:

Wimbeldon to Whitechapel
Hammersmith to Barking
South Kensington to Edgware Road
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Old January 16th, 2009, 11:07 AM   #3318
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The best idea for the disused Thameslink tracks, which are too short and too high to really be used by any new line, is to turn Barbican into a non-conflicting turnback facility (from either direction). If you play about with Moorgate station, changing the layout then you can have that as the turnback from the west.
It could definitely be done pretty easily, but I don't know what use it would see other than in service suspensions... No timetable would have trains terminating at Barbican, it's a waste of capacity.

A FAR better idea is to restore the curve between City Thameslink and Barbican under Smithfield Market: trains can then reach the Moorgate stub from the south so it could be a terminating point for Southeastern and FCC services from the south rather than currently using Blackfriars or City.
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Old January 16th, 2009, 12:35 PM   #3319
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although, this would be a flat junction and would restrict train movements in a busy tunnel. You might want to use Moorgate as an alternative destination for engineering works, but then again, who wants to go to Moorgate during the weekend?
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Old January 16th, 2009, 03:17 PM   #3320
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Something just crossed my mind Tubeman, I dont know if its been asked before, but there appears to be no way of searching a single thread (is there?).

Will the tube be running 24 hours during the olympics? Or extended hours?

We are seeing extended hours for normal train services so I was wondering if the tube was too.
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