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Old January 16th, 2009, 06:23 PM   #3321
sotonsi
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It could definitely be done pretty easily, but I don't know what use it would see other than in service suspensions... No timetable would have trains terminating at Barbican, it's a waste of capacity.
Indeed - it would replace Moorgate and work better. The cost is fairly cheap and you can stable stuff there if you want. There's not much else you could do with it.
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A FAR better idea is to restore the curve between City Thameslink and Barbican under Smithfield Market: trains can then reach the Moorgate stub from the south so it could be a terminating point for Southeastern and FCC services from the south rather than currently using Blackfriars or City.
However the demand for Thameslink is in the north. You'd need to 4-track Blackfriars-City Thameslink (and have the ex-Herne Hill side dip under the Thameslink tunnels to get to the Moorgate branch) as, for the same passenger-flow reasons why the Moorgate branch facing the other way was happily closed, are exacerbated here. You'd want the full 24tph to go to the north, and therefore not turn off at Moorgate (they did the same with the south - it needed the full 24tph).

So not really FAR better (or better at all!), as it will have no real use without massive amount of money being spent, due to demand for trains being from the north. Bear in mind that Kings Cross suburban will still have terminating trains, because there's not enough room for all the trains to go down Thameslink. Forcing more to terminate up at KXSP isn't a good idea.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 11:50 AM   #3322
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Something just crossed my mind Tubeman, I dont know if its been asked before, but there appears to be no way of searching a single thread (is there?).

Will the tube be running 24 hours during the olympics? Or extended hours?

We are seeing extended hours for normal train services so I was wondering if the tube was too.
I would expect 24 hour running, yes... Not too sure if it would be for the entire 2 weeks or just portions of it.
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Old January 17th, 2009, 07:54 PM   #3323
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tubeman... the DLR is overcrowded already at woolwich arsenal in the morning peak, trains are leaving people on the platforms from king george V onwards... i dunno what they are gonna do because there is surely not enough capacity to run more trains until the stratford international branch opens... the tube map effect strikes again...
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Old January 17th, 2009, 08:17 PM   #3324
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tubeman... the DLR is overcrowded already at woolwich arsenal in the morning peak, trains are leaving people on the platforms from king george V onwards... i dunno what they are gonna do because there is surely not enough capacity to run more trains until the stratford international branch opens... the tube map effect strikes again...
They only get 9tph, perhaps 12tph would work. The Beckton branch shuttle runs 12tph off peak, and 6tph during the peak - that suggests that there's a bit more capacity at Canning Town to reverse some shorter shuttles (so you get Bank every 10 minutes, Blackwall every 20, Canning Town every 20).

If, off peak, Canning Town can cope with 12 reversals and 6 through, then surely at peak times it can cope with 9 reversals and 9 through? Perhaps to give Silvertown a chance of getting on (if there's a lot more suppressed demand at Woolwich), reverse the three Canning Town trains at King George V (ie keep that demand supressed).

How long until Shadwell, Limehouse, Poplar, Blackwall, East India and Canning Town are ready for 3-car? That would give a 50% increase in capacity - perhaps just Canning Town shuttles as 3-car, or using SDO would help.

Upping frequency would give you an extra 33%, though you'd need the trains to do it now. 3-car and Stratford Int/shuttle would mean an increase of 100% from 18 cars per peak-hour (9tph x 2-car) to 36 (12tph x 3-car). That should keep you until 2017, when Crossrail comes.

As an aside - has North Greenwich noticeably got quieter? Is Greenwich DLR less busy? If they now change onto TfL at Woolwich, then they would be.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 12:11 AM   #3325
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haven't been to NG yet... i usually get the semi fast from abbey wood which goes via lewisham so haven't seen the impact on greenwich... woolwich arsenal seems as busy, the DLR station is very busy based on the one time i used it... other accounts hold up that it's always like that during the peaks

i know my mate who lives in bexleyheath gets the bus to woolwich, the DLR then gets off at poplar and walks or waits for a through train... he used to change at lewisham... cheaper fares now...

apparently serco lowered the frequency from 8tph to 6tph

also i didn't think they were doing east india and blackwall?? haven't noticed work going on there...
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Old January 18th, 2009, 12:32 AM   #3326
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just another quick one tubeman... if DLR trains have comparable speed and acceleration to LU trains and has similar capacity... then shouldn't this be the model of all future underground lines, as it can climb steeper gradiants and turn sharper corners at a nice speed... or a am i missing something???
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Old January 18th, 2009, 01:00 AM   #3327
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you can't be saying that the DLR has similar capacity to the JLE (even at present)? Surely the capacity per train and the tph are both higher on most of the Underground services?
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Old January 18th, 2009, 03:07 AM   #3328
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DLR when it will have 3 cars, will be more or less the same size as the district line with 6...
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Old January 18th, 2009, 03:53 AM   #3329
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DLR when it will have 3 cars, will be more or less the same size as the district line with 6...
That'll change when the subsurface lines are upgraded and get longitudinal seating only, I'm guessing.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 09:41 AM   #3330
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District has 7, except Wimbleware. However DLR will be about the same capacity as C-stock (on Circle, Wimbleware and Hammersmith & City). 6-car S stock would have about the same, but IIRC the plan is for 7-car and SDO at the small stations.

C-stock already has longtudinal seating only. S-stock is mixed longitudinal/transverse - one side of each, alternating which side it is (it is also wider than C-stock, IIRC).
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Old January 18th, 2009, 12:50 PM   #3331
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just another quick one tubeman... if DLR trains have comparable speed and acceleration to LU trains and has similar capacity... then shouldn't this be the model of all future underground lines, as it can climb steeper gradiants and turn sharper corners at a nice speed... or a am i missing something???
I guess the main issue is inter-operability. To allow stock transfers between lines, the running of engineering trains, and running over NR track, LU needs to remain heavy rail. A future self-contained line could be built like DLR, no problem, but as any future line in London would almost certainly need to be underground in the most part, the Tube option is cheaper because the tunnels are much smaller bore.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 12:53 PM   #3332
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District has 7, except Wimbleware. However DLR will be about the same capacity as C-stock (on Circle, Wimbleware and Hammersmith & City). 6-car S stock would have about the same, but IIRC the plan is for 7-car and SDO at the small stations.

C-stock already has longtudinal seating only. S-stock is mixed longitudinal/transverse - one side of each, alternating which side it is (it is also wider than C-stock, IIRC).
D Stock are definitely 6 cars, trust me! They are equivalent length to 7 cars of C Stock, if that's what you mean.

My understanding is that the entire SSR fleet will be 7 cars, roughly the length of a D Stock in total, which will require expensive platform lengthening at stations like Bayswater and Notting Hill Gate, and will reuslt in wasted capacity on the Met Main (no doubt negated by having fewer seats so more standing capacity).
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Old January 18th, 2009, 12:58 PM   #3333
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tubeman... the DLR is overcrowded already at woolwich arsenal in the morning peak, trains are leaving people on the platforms from king george V onwards... i dunno what they are gonna do because there is surely not enough capacity to run more trains until the stratford international branch opens... the tube map effect strikes again...
Maybe it's just the novelty?!

Are a lot of journies originating in Woolwich, or is it mostly interchange passengers from NR do you think?

Well it's sort of good news anyway, yet another highly successful DLR extension, which will hopefully persuade Boris et al to push on with Dagenham Dock. I guess we'll only have to wait til next year for Stratford International, which will allow higher frequencies to Woolwich... But I can foresee the Stratford trains being empty, as I can't see many of the throngs at Woolwich wanting to get to Canning Town or the Royal Docks.... They'll be wanting to go to Canary Wharf or The City.
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Old January 18th, 2009, 08:29 PM   #3334
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My understanding is that the entire SSR fleet will be 7 cars
What is your source for that? I sincerely hope its just hearsay as that would compound the reduction in seats that is happening anyway. Although I can see why it would make sense from a fleet management point of view
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Old January 18th, 2009, 08:39 PM   #3335
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Maybe it's just the novelty?!

Are a lot of journies originating in Woolwich, or is it mostly interchange passengers from NR do you think?

Well it's sort of good news anyway, yet another highly successful DLR extension, which will hopefully persuade Boris et al to push on with Dagenham Dock. I guess we'll only have to wait til next year for Stratford International, which will allow higher frequencies to Woolwich... But I can foresee the Stratford trains being empty, as I can't see many of the throngs at Woolwich wanting to get to Canning Town or the Royal Docks.... They'll be wanting to go to Canary Wharf or The City.
i don't know there was a lot of antiicipation in the area for this... so i reckon people have switched...

A mixture of both but mainly locals because the semi fasts from medway and north kent stop at woolwich and lewisham... it would make sense that those working in docklands would interchange earlier at woolwich than later at lewisham for a similar lengthed DLR ride...

i agree the DLR to stratford international might be a step to far, if it weren't parrelleling another line it would be a different story
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Old January 19th, 2009, 01:42 AM   #3336
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What is your source for that?
I work on The Tube?
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Old January 19th, 2009, 12:55 PM   #3337
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Tubeman,

In your view, what are the main bottlenecks on the existing system (by principle, as opposed to examples - although examples wouldn't go amiss).

Some of them I imagine would be:

1) Terminating stations with only 2 platforms connected by a scissor on incoming side. This reduces capacity because of conflicting train paths and limited time that each train can spend at the terminus.

2) Infrequent fixed-block signalling (JLE, for example)

3) Poorly designed stations where passenger flow inhibits short dwell-times

4) Non-grade separated junctions

And also, if you were designing a new tube line, how would you design it so that it had absolutely top capacity shifting massive numbers of people per hour?
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Old January 19th, 2009, 07:05 PM   #3338
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based on the question above tubeman....

what limits trains per hour is it track space... breaking or platform capacity...

i say this because i thought... is it possible for a line to run every minute... if at every station it had two platforms for each running line... ie it would alternate which platform it would go into. so basically train A goes into platform 1, train B 1 minute behind arrives at platform 2 as train A is about to leave and train C arrives at platform 1 as train B is about to leave...
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Old January 19th, 2009, 08:21 PM   #3339
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I work on The Tube?
Very good... Has it been officially announced then, internally or is it a rumour, as the last TFL investment report from last month clearly mentions 8 cars?
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Old January 20th, 2009, 01:23 AM   #3340
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Tubeman,

Where could we find up-to-date information on:

1) District track replacements - how much is done now?

2) Jubilee ATO implementation - what is left to do? when will it 'go live'?
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