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Old January 31st, 2009, 05:54 AM   #3381
sotonsi
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pic 8 seems to be the centre rail, which isn't 'live' but is at a voltage, and does have insulator pots.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 09:12 PM   #3382
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
pic 8 seems to be the centre rail, which isn't 'live' but is at a voltage, and does have insulator pots.
It is definitely showing the centre rail, which is at a nominal -220v, and the positive rail is at +440v, to give the potential difference of 660v. It is absolutely a live rail
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Old February 1st, 2009, 10:11 PM   #3383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I don't, but before I forget: is it LOROL, LORO or LORL? I've seen all 3 used!
It is LOROL.
By the way, what is the publication date for your new book and out of interest, how many did you sell of Volume 1?
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Old February 1st, 2009, 11:17 PM   #3384
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Yes, I think it's difficult and messy too - hence why I asked the question!

I suppose the following movements of people are the most critical:
1) T1,2,3 & T4 & T5 & T6 --> London
2) Inter-terminal travel
3) From HSL Hub to terminals

One option is this:

a) Scrap T4 Piccadilly loop
b) Build T6 station on HEx/Crossrail link to GWR
c) Build HSL Hub on ex-West Drayton Coal Depot land facing East-West. GWR and Crossrail (not LHR branch) trains would stop here.
d) Extend Piccadilly from T5 west-bound to join with North half of Staines Branch line. Double-track this line (if possible) all the way up to HSL Hub. Scrap link to GWR, unless useful for maintenance purposes.
e) Build 4-6 track Piccadilly station at HSL Hub. Use this as Piccadilly terminus.
f) Build a short tunnel under Uxbridge from Piccadilly/Metropolitan line facing NE-SW. Extend overground southwards towards HSL Hub.
g) Scrap Metropolitan line services to Uxbridge.
h) Build better interchange at West Ruislip with Central Line
i) Replace overground Uxbridge station with a station on the underground route through Uxbridge.
j) Grade-separate and 4-track between Acton Town and North Ealing so that Piccadilly trains do not conflict with each other and District trains
k) Run Piccadilly trains in both directions round this new loop - should be able to reach 12 tph if they currently run 24tph on central section.

In summary:
i) T1,2,3 to London via HEx / Crossrail / Piccadilly
ii) T4 to London via Crossrail or change at T1,2,3
iii) T5 to London via HEx / Piccadilly or change at T1,2,3 or HSL Hub
iv) T6 to London via HEx / Crossrail or change at T1,2,3
v) T1,2,3,5 to HSL Hub via Piccadilly direct
vi) T4,6 to HSL Hub via Crossrail to T1,2,3 and change to Piccadilly
vii) Uxbridge to London via Piccadilly, or change at HSL Hub for Crossrail, or change at West Ruislip for Central / Chiltern services.
viii) Uxbridge to Metropolitan stations (like Harrow-on-the-Hill) - bus services

This should be quite an easy Piccadilly service to operate since provision would be made at HSL Hub for trains to terminate. It is predicted that not too many people would want to travel from LHR-Uxbridge, and that these people would have to change at HSL Hub for the first train in the right direction. "Short-running" trains can reverse at Rayners Lane / Northfields.

[IMG]http://i39.************/3480nra.jpg[/IMG]
Linking the Uxbridge and Heathrow branches is an interesting idea... there was a GWR branch to Uxbridge which branched off the Staines West line just before the junction with the main line, heading due north with an intermediate station at Cowley, therefore almost the entire route could be over former lines. I have a feeling though that the track bed has been built over in the Cowley area, so it might not be as straighforward as it sounds.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 11:19 PM   #3385
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Originally Posted by somersetchris View Post
It is LOROL.
By the way, what is the publication date for your new book and out of interest, how many did you sell of Volume 1?
Good, got it right then

Second edition out in July hopefully, no firm date yet. I'm down at Ian Allan tomorrow afternoon to thrash out the royalty deal, provided the trains are running of course.

The First edition has sold about 6,000 copies I think, that's in the space of 3 years.
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Old February 1st, 2009, 11:19 PM   #3386
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Originally Posted by Stuu View Post
It is definitely showing the centre rail, which is at a nominal -220v, and the positive rail is at +440v, to give the potential difference of 660v. It is absolutely a live rail
Sorry, pedant alert: It's -210V & +420V giving a PD of 630V
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Old February 1st, 2009, 11:26 PM   #3387
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Hi Tubeman -

If you hadn't already seen it, I thought everyone would be interested in this photo essay on the Tube that appeared in the January 9th issue of Time magazine:
http://www.time.com/time/photogaller...870615,00.html

The photos are captioned with interesting bits of trivia; for example, within a few months of the Metropolitan Line opening in January, 1863, it was carrying over 26,000 passengers a day!

Best - Kent
Thanks for sharing Kent!
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 01:36 AM   #3388
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I thought of this about a year ago I think for a Heathrow solution. Just the tube, though.


blue is existing, red is new, grey not used anymore.

With a minimal number of changes to the lines you could change it into one big loop, running either clockwise or anticlockwise (the latter probably being the better option. At the same time you could also have a train or two simply connecting all the terminals with each other.
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 01:55 AM   #3389
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Hi Sweek,

I saw your thoughts before, while I was trawling through the forum.

What made me pose the question was that the HSL Hub at Heathrow might present further difficulties in that it's supposed to be AT Heathrow, and yet, the link to the Heathrow terminals might not be as straightforward as it might seem...

If the HSL Hub is near the junction of Crossrail/HEx with GWR, then you can use Crossrail to link to Heathrow, but if it's at West Drayton where there appears to be more space, then the link to LHR is much harder!
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 10:28 AM   #3390
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how on earth did the W&C get suspended this morning due to the snow? It's underground the whole way!
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 11:13 AM   #3391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jang0 View Post
how on earth did the W&C get suspended this morning due to the snow? It's underground the whole way!
Maybe no staff to drive the trains etc. My local at Queensway was closed for the same reason.
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 11:16 AM   #3392
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Originally Posted by sweek View Post
I thought of this about a year ago I think for a Heathrow solution. Just the tube, though.


blue is existing, red is new, grey not used anymore.

With a minimal number of changes to the lines you could change it into one big loop, running either clockwise or anticlockwise (the latter probably being the better option. At the same time you could also have a train or two simply connecting all the terminals with each other.
I think the whole of Heathrow needs another re-think. For mine I say get rid of the T4 loop and just run everything to Heathrow Central and T5. From Heathrow Central there should be a rapid/regular free service to ALL terminals including T6 (or what ever it will be called) provided by BAA.

The current Central to T4 service is crap and not premium and should serve as an example of what not to do.

The hastle is the more stops you add the slower it takes, especially for the premium express services, and too many loops and options on the underground will confuse the people who need to use it. Keep it simple and it should work.
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 12:35 PM   #3393
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tubeman

visiting a friend of mine in dagenham on a sunday, the tube didn't seem that dead at least as far as heathway. Or was i just lucky in that i got a random busy train.

Also is the reason why it would be dead because there is no major station/destination east of dagenham, let alone barking?

I had a quick peruse of an A-Z and saw that surely an alignment could be built above ground to Romford from dagenham east, which would give the district line in east london some sort of destination.

Also was there a plan to 6 track from airport junction to north pole? junction?

cheers Tubeman
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 03:11 PM   #3394
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Originally Posted by Jang0 View Post
how on earth did the W&C get suspended this morning due to the snow? It's underground the whole way!
Would have been staff for sure, on such a small line all it would take is a couple of drivers running late or the sole Service Controller not being able to make it in and the line can't run. It's looking bleak for the afternoon / evening on the Bakerloo Line too.
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 03:33 PM   #3395
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tubeman

visiting a friend of mine in dagenham on a sunday, the tube didn't seem that dead at least as far as heathway. Or was i just lucky in that i got a random busy train.

Also is the reason why it would be dead because there is no major station/destination east of dagenham, let alone barking?

I had a quick peruse of an A-Z and saw that surely an alignment could be built above ground to Romford from dagenham east, which would give the district line in east london some sort of destination.

Also was there a plan to 6 track from airport junction to north pole? junction?

cheers Tubeman
Beyond Barking the housing is much less dense (1930's estates) so I guess the population catchment of each station is less than stations like Upton Park and East Ham which serve dense Victorian terraces. In addition the two main population centres along the route, Barking and Upminster, also have C2C fast trains so passengers for London would use C2C not the District Line. A lot of passengers from other stations just use the District Line to get to Barking or Upminster to change to C2C, e.g. someone living in Hornchurch might prefer to go 2 stops east to Upminster to catch the fast into London rather than sit on the District Line for 40 minutes.

You may have been in the front carriage too, which is always the busiest as a lot of the platform exits are at the east end of the stations. The rear of the trains are often empty travelling eastbound.

A branch to serve another destination would be better use of capacity, you're right, I guess Romford is the logical choice.

Regarding 6-tracking more of the GWR main line, I guess it's needed, but it would be pretty disruptive and expensive as there are engineering features like the tunnel under Ealing Broadway, River Brent viaduct and the 'Iron Bridge' between Ealing and Southall to widen.
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 05:22 PM   #3396
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Tubeman - I know this isn't your expertise but as a TfL employee I thought you might have an answer.

Why have all the bus routes been suspended? I can see why service would be reduced because of numbers of drivers not being able to get to work, but I can't believe that enough drivers to run some kind of minimal night bus style service weren't able to get to the depots this morning?

Also - What improvements would be needed and how much would it cost to make the underground operable in weather conditions like those today?
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 05:34 PM   #3397
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Tubeman - I know this isn't your expertise but as a TfL employee I thought you might have an answer.

Why have all the bus routes been suspended? I can see why service would be reduced because of numbers of drivers not being able to get to work, but I can't believe that enough drivers to run some kind of minimal night bus style service weren't able to get to the depots this morning?

Also - What improvements would be needed and how much would it cost to make the underground operable in weather conditions like those today?

I asked my self the same question at 07:30 this morning as I stood waiting for a 63. I can only assume it was deemed that the volume of snowfall would have made buses dangerously difficult to stop / control, I certainly saw a lot of cars struggling... It was certainly a blanket instruction in the name of health & safety rather than staffing shortages.

The main issue for the Tube today is staffing: with no buses and minimal mainline services a lot of staff simply can't get in. Provided snowfall isn't too heavy without letting up once a few trains have run up and down and de-iced (roughly every other unit has sleet brushes & de-icing fluid) then the snow itself isn't a huge problem.
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 05:51 PM   #3398
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Thanks. Living in Hackney and working in Shoreditch it wasn't such a problem for me, but my office was near dead this morning. Do you know how far TfL are expecting things to be back to normal tomorrow?
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 06:03 PM   #3399
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Originally Posted by ajw373 View Post
I think the whole of Heathrow needs another re-think. For mine I say get rid of the T4 loop and just run everything to Heathrow Central and T5. From Heathrow Central there should be a rapid/regular free service to ALL terminals including T6 (or what ever it will be called) provided by BAA.

The current Central to T4 service is crap and not premium and should serve as an example of what not to do.

The hastle is the more stops you add the slower it takes, especially for the premium express services, and too many loops and options on the underground will confuse the people who need to use it. Keep it simple and it should work.
I think that is too complicated and would actually be quite slow. The Problem is that only T5 and T123 are lined up neatly for the Piccadilly line from the East. T4 is to the South and T6 (if it happens) is to the North. At least the Heathrow Express tunnel passes directly underneath the T6 site, so that only T4 is stuck on the branch line.

The could leave it as it is, and allow free transfers between T6 and the central area on the Heathrow express, like they already do for T4 and Central.

A better solution would be a new internal transit system between the terminals and the central tube and train station. You could then also close the piccadilly line to T4 and keep all the trains to the two busiest stops and the quickest journey. A new shuttle line connecting T6 to central and then to T4 would could be quick and simple.
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Old February 2nd, 2009, 07:07 PM   #3400
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Beyond Barking the housing is much less dense (1930's estates) so I guess the population catchment of each station is less than stations like Upton Park and East Ham which serve dense Victorian terraces. In addition the two main population centres along the route, Barking and Upminster, also have C2C fast trains so passengers for London would use C2C not the District Line. A lot of passengers from other stations just use the District Line to get to Barking or Upminster to change to C2C, e.g. someone living in Hornchurch might prefer to go 2 stops east to Upminster to catch the fast into London rather than sit on the District Line for 40 minutes.
it's very strange because if you compare the shenfield metro east of Ilford and the district line east of barking. The shenfield metro is a lot busier based on entries and exits and that's even based upon national rail undercounting. I don't know how say harold wood can be double the busyness of hornchurch?? especially as harold wood has half the trains off peak!

Quote:
You may have been in the front carriage too, which is always the busiest as a lot of the platform exits are at the east end of the stations. The rear of the trains are often empty travelling eastbound.
Probably i don't recall

Quote:
A branch to serve another destination would be better use of capacity, you're right, I guess Romford is the logical choice.
Is it just a case that the fact that the district east bound isn't busy is negligible?? because i would've though taking it to romford while not being comepletely easy would've been a target?

Quote:
Regarding 6-tracking more of the GWR main line, I guess it's needed, but it would be pretty disruptive and expensive as there are engineering features like the tunnel under Ealing Broadway, River Brent viaduct and the 'Iron Bridge' between Ealing and Southall to widen.
Are they the only 'hard' egineering parts? because that surely isn't much at all??

The buses were overevving last night, taking ages to move short distances, and sounding like they would explode
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