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Old March 1st, 2009, 01:10 PM   #3481
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Thanks for clearing that up for me Tubeman. I noticed in the pictures of the new Victoria stock that there's 9 carriages, so it got me thinking.

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Originally Posted by ajw373 View Post
District line stock is getting replaced with the S stock which is pictured above. But the Met, Hammersmith and City/Circle get new stock first so it will be some years before the District line sees them.

Having said that how long since you have rode a D stock on the district line? All the cars have been refurbished, the last only within the last 6-12 months and are quite nice inside. The problems (delays etc) with the district line don't seem to be cause by the rolling stock but just the complexity of operation, especially around Earls Court.
It's been 2 years since I was last in London. The District and Piccadilly lines were the ones I generally used the most, as I'd get the tube from my house in Putney and into Central London. So I'm quite out of touch with how the tube is now I'm afraid. The District line was always quite dingy and horrible though, it reminded me a lot of the NYC Subway in parts.

I miss the tube so much. You don't appreciate how good it is until you realise you living in a city on the other side of the world with a train system that breaks down every 2 days and treats overcrowding like it's an olympic sport.
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Old March 2nd, 2009, 03:49 AM   #3482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I'm sure I've explained this before but here goes...

There are 2 approximate different car lengths on LU, I'll refer to them as 'short' and 'long'... a 'long' car is approx 15% longer than a 'short' car such that a 6-car train of 'short' cars (e.g. a Circle / H&C / Wimbleware C Stock) is only as long as 5 'long' cars (e.g. District D Stock), this is apparent when you see C and D stocks standing alongside each other at Wimbledon.

So, in actual length (to the best of my recollection)...

Metropolitan A Stock = 8 short
Victoria 67 Stock = 8 short
Central 92 Stock = 8 short

District D Stock = 6 long
Piccadilly 73 Stock = 6 long

Bakerloo 72 Stock = 7 short
Jubilee 96 Stock = 7 short

Northern 95 Stock = 6 short
Circle / C&H / Wimbleware C Stock = 6 short

Waterloo & City 92 Stock = 4 short

I think the Northern line stock might have a slightly longer car length than standard 'short' as it used to run 7 car 1959 Stocks ('short' cars) and now only runs 6, but with the 1959 stocks as a driver we'd always stop with the cab in the tunnel at most platforms and the rear cab would also be in the tunnel, whereas now the front cab is always on the platform and usually the rear cab too... I don't feel that the current stock is a whole car shorter in overall length than a 7-car '59.

The District Line D Stocks have all been refurbished and are very smart now, the C Stocks on the Edgware Rd - Wimbledon service are a bit tatty (they were the first refurb in the early 1990's).
Jubilee line is 7 long, Northern line is 6 long. 7 car 96TS is practically the same as 8 short cars. 96/95TS have the same car bodies so they can't be different!

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Originally Posted by city_thing
Thanks for clearing that up for me Tubeman. I noticed in the pictures of the new Victoria stock that there's 9 carriages, so it got me thinking.
There is no chance the new Victoria line trains will be 9 cars! Me thinks it's your bad memory at work again!
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Old March 2nd, 2009, 10:09 AM   #3483
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lol!

I don't know what's wrong with my mind these days. I'll try hunt down the photo that I saw... not so I can prove you wrong, but for the reassurance that I don't have a goldfish's memory span.
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Old March 2nd, 2009, 10:12 AM   #3484
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There is no chance the new Victoria line trains will be 9 cars! Me thinks it's your bad memory at work again!
So it appears there's 8 carriages, not nine.

Easy mistake

http://steven76.fotopic.net/p56618802.html
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Old March 2nd, 2009, 08:32 PM   #3485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Jubilee line is 7 long, Northern line is 6 long. 7 car 96TS is practically the same as 8 short cars. 96/95TS have the same car bodies so they can't be different!
Not convinced... Means that the former Bakerloo section between Baker Street and Finchley Road must have been built with longer than standard platforms for no real reason as it joined onto the original 1906 Yerkes route which just fits 7 short cars.

If the Northern Line were 6 long then the trains would be longer than the 7 cars of 59 Stocks, and they're a fair bit shorter so I'm not convinced about that one either. As I suggested if anything the 95's and 96's have an intermediate car length between the traditional short and long.
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Old March 3rd, 2009, 12:11 AM   #3486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Not convinced... Means that the former Bakerloo section between Baker Street and Finchley Road must have been built with longer than standard platforms for no real reason as it joined onto the original 1906 Yerkes route which just fits 7 short cars.

If the Northern Line were 6 long then the trains would be longer than the 7 cars of 59 Stocks, and they're a fair bit shorter so I'm not convinced about that one either. As I suggested if anything the 95's and 96's have an intermediate car length between the traditional short and long.
The 95/96TS are 17.77m per car. For other cars that you've listed long, the 73TS, are 17.6m. So if they're anything, the 95/96TS are long by your definition... Look on wikipedia for yourself.

There isn't really much difference between long cars and short cars... the 92TS for example is 16.2m...

I don't know why the Finchley - Baker Street section was built longer than the original Bakerloo line, possible the same reason Highgate station was built for 9 cars; futureproofing. All I know is that the Northern/Piccadilly platforms are the same length on the original Yerkes sections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by city_thing
So it appears there's 8 carriages, not nine.

Easy mistake

http://steven76.fotopic.net/p56618802.html
You've made another mistake... the picture you've shown is of the S Stock not the 2009 Stock!
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Old March 22nd, 2009, 02:24 AM   #3487
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Hey Tubeman do you know if the 95TS reliability has improved at all?
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 12:55 AM   #3488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Hey Tubeman do you know if the 95TS reliability has improved at all?
Like any new stock there were a few teething problems at first, but they are pretty reliable these days. I don't think they were ever especially unreliable; most of the Northern Line's former woes were down to the timetables (now resolved).
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Old April 2nd, 2009, 01:36 AM   #3489
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Today's Guardian had a shot of Boris in the new District/Metropolitan/Circle line trains.
Was it a recycled photo, or was a train out and about testing lately?

It was taken at either Euston or Sloane Square judging by the station sign (half cut off).
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Old April 2nd, 2009, 07:52 PM   #3490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelbourneCity View Post
Today's Guardian had a shot of Boris in the new District/Metropolitan/Circle line trains.
Was it a recycled photo, or was a train out and about testing lately?

It was taken at either Euston or Sloane Square judging by the station sign (half cut off).
It must have been the mock-up: the prototype S Stock hasn't been on LU metals yet... Must have just been a dummy sign
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 04:05 AM   #3491
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Sounds like the official mock up in Euston Square (a tent above ground) a few months ago...

Tubeman, what type of ballast is used where and why? Slab, gravel or other?

Thanks for any replies.
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Old April 3rd, 2009, 12:34 PM   #3492
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Tubeman, since you must've spent quite a bit of time looking at Google Maps by now for your book... what do you think would be the best alignment and best terminal for a high speed line from London to Birmingham? Would you go via Heathrow?
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Old April 4th, 2009, 10:50 AM   #3493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Sounds like the official mock up in Euston Square (a tent above ground) a few months ago...

Tubeman, what type of ballast is used where and why? Slab, gravel or other?

Thanks for any replies.
Our ballast on the overground and SSR sections looks pretty standard to me... I didn't know there were different types to be honest!
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Old April 4th, 2009, 10:59 AM   #3494
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Quote:
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Tubeman, since you must've spent quite a bit of time looking at Google Maps by now for your book... what do you think would be the best alignment and best terminal for a high speed line from London to Birmingham? Would you go via Heathrow?
Heathrow's too much of a detour for me... If you draw a straight line between London and Birmingham it passes slapbang through Watford and the Tring Gap and then slightly west of Milton Keynes, so for me the London & Birmingham Railway got it spot on 170 years ago!
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Old April 4th, 2009, 08:10 PM   #3495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Heathrow's too much of a detour for me... If you draw a straight line between London and Birmingham it passes slapbang through Watford and the Tring Gap and then slightly west of Milton Keynes, so for me the London & Birmingham Railway got it spot on 170 years ago!
so how come the Chiltern route is so much shorter ~10-15%?

The crow-flies line goes through the Amersham/Chesham area IIRC.

Heathrow is fine as a loop or a spur - the Birmingham direct line is much better as a route.

That said, Euston-Heathrow-High Wycombe would be probably be shorter than the WCML route.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 02:28 AM   #3496
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The roof at Earl's Court has finally revealed again after it has been refurbished and the scaffolding has been taken down:

Courtesy of Chris W 72 at Flickr:

image hosted on flickr


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Our ballast on the overground and SSR sections looks pretty standard to me... I didn't know there were different types to be honest!
I didn't really convey my point very well because I don't know all the lingo!

I meant is it like, slab track like on the DLR, or concrete blocks on ballast like NR...?
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Old April 5th, 2009, 11:31 AM   #3497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
so how come the Chiltern route is so much shorter ~10-15%?

The crow-flies line goes through the Amersham/Chesham area IIRC.

Heathrow is fine as a loop or a spur - the Birmingham direct line is much better as a route.

That said, Euston-Heathrow-High Wycombe would be probably be shorter than the WCML route.
I'd be surprised if there was that much of a distance differential between the two, I guess the WCML deviates a bit to the east of the 'crow flies' line to reach Rugby, the original GCR main line is a 'better fit' north of Aylesbury but through utilising the Tring Gap the WCML has a much straighter, flatter route than the Met / Chiltern route up and over the Chilterns.

The 'crow flies' line very much depends on where in London you're drawing it to. I lay a ruler across a map yesterday between the centre of Birmingham and London City and it went straight through Watford (WCML), Tring (WCML), Buckingham (GCR) and a few miles west of MK (WCML)... As I said the WCML then deviates a bit to the east of this line through Rugby before the Birmingham spur branches off, but this allows Coventry to be served.
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Old April 5th, 2009, 11:32 AM   #3498
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
The roof at Earl's Court has finally revealed again after it has been refurbished and the scaffolding has been taken down:

Courtesy of Chris W 72 at Flickr:

image hosted on flickr
Great news... It was really frustrating that no sooner had all the scaffolding come down after the station refurb was completed, it all went up again to refurbish the roof. What a waste of bloody money!
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Old April 5th, 2009, 11:38 AM   #3499
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I didn't really convey my point very well because I don't know all the lingo!

I meant is it like, slab track like on the DLR, or concrete blocks on ballast like NR...?
Oh I see... Above ground and all of SSR are traditional sleepers on limestone ballast, with the wooden sleepers being slowly replaced with concrete and bullhead rail being replaced by flat-bottomed (i.e. coming in line with NR standards). Deep level Tubes are generally a mixture depending on age... The JLE is fully concreted in like the DLR (I believe with rubber dampers under the 'chairs' carrying the rails), while the Waterloo & City Line certainly used to be untied sleepers laying on ballast (which led to track movement and rough riding)... I think this may have been addressed when the line closed a couple of years ago. Certainly all other Tubes at least had the sleepers tied to the tunnel lining for stability.
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Old April 6th, 2009, 02:23 AM   #3500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Oh I see... Above ground and all of SSR are traditional sleepers on limestone ballast, with the wooden sleepers being slowly replaced with concrete and bullhead rail being replaced by flat-bottomed (i.e. coming in line with NR standards). Deep level Tubes are generally a mixture depending on age... The JLE is fully concreted in like the DLR (I believe with rubber dampers under the 'chairs' carrying the rails), while the Waterloo & City Line certainly used to be untied sleepers laying on ballast (which led to track movement and rough riding)... I think this may have been addressed when the line closed a couple of years ago. Certainly all other Tubes at least had the sleepers tied to the tunnel lining for stability.
Thanks a lot, I think the W&C is now concrete like the Jubilee line, I remember from pictures on the Metronet website. Do you know if track replacements are leading to more concreted in track on the old deep level lines or are they keeping the traditional sleepers? I also noticed that sometimes engineers replaced the tracks but kept the old "chairs" and others they seemed to replace the "chairs" and ballast as well, why?
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