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Old June 28th, 2009, 03:08 PM   #3581
1LONDONER
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Sorry, I actually meant how many trains are there on each of the lines?
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Old June 29th, 2009, 01:29 AM   #3582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Metropolitan, Victoria, Central = 8
Bakerloo = 7
Waterloo & City = 4
All the rest = 6

It's not that straightforward though, as different stocks have different length cars e.g. 6 cars of C Stock = 5 cars D Stock
Jubilee has had 7 cars ever since 2005. As the 96TS on the Jubilee are the long type of cars it is basically equivalent to the 8 car trains on the Metropolitan, Central and Victoria lines which are all 130-135m
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Old June 29th, 2009, 01:59 AM   #3583
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isn't the northern 8 short cars, giving a length about the same as a Bakerloo train?

Chesham shuttle (if it hasn't yet been sadly cut) is 4 car as well. East London Line was also 4 car.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 12:15 PM   #3584
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Jubilee has had 7 cars ever since 2005. As the 96TS on the Jubilee are the long type of cars it is basically equivalent to the 8 car trains on the Metropolitan, Central and Victoria lines which are all 130-135m
Oops yeah forgot the Jubilee Line had grown!
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Old June 29th, 2009, 12:18 PM   #3585
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Sorry, I actually meant how many trains are there on each of the lines?
Oh I see...

Don't know all of those off the top of my head, the Bakerloo is 33 peak service, District 77, the most is the Northern with about 87 (increasing to 92 with the next timetable change).

The total current peak service is 523 trains across the network
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Old June 29th, 2009, 12:19 PM   #3586
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
isn't the northern 8 short cars, giving a length about the same as a Bakerloo train?

Chesham shuttle (if it hasn't yet been sadly cut) is 4 car as well. East London Line was also 4 car.
I'm sure the Northern runs 6 cars, they're definitely a bit shorter than the 7 cars of 1959 Stock that used to run.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 10:44 PM   #3587
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Piccadilly Line

Hi Tubeman,

The Piccadilly line seems remarkably cool (temperature-wise) in comparison to the other deep lines. Even though the Central line is not as deep and has larger trains (correct me if I'm wrong), it's still much hotter.

How does the Piccadilly manage to be a bit colder than the other deep tubes?
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Old June 30th, 2009, 01:21 AM   #3588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
isn't the northern 8 short cars, giving a length about the same as a Bakerloo train?

Chesham shuttle (if it hasn't yet been sadly cut) is 4 car as well. East London Line was also 4 car.
Nope, Northern is 6 'long' cars so nearly as long as the 7 'short' cars of the Bakerloo.
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Old June 30th, 2009, 04:48 PM   #3589
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Hi Tubeman,

The Piccadilly line seems remarkably cool (temperature-wise) in comparison to the other deep lines. Even though the Central line is not as deep and has larger trains (correct me if I'm wrong), it's still much hotter.

How does the Piccadilly manage to be a bit colder than the other deep tubes?
I think it might be partly explained by the Tube stocks... The newer stocks seem to kick off a lot of heat braking (I'm not an expert in the field of newer stocks as I never drove them, but I think they have some form of regenerative braking which transforms kinetic energy back into electricity which is fed back into the current rails).

The Piccadilly Line 1973 Stock have Rheostatic braking which has a similar principle (during braking kinetic energy is used to generate an opposite field in the traction motors to that needed for acceleration, causing deceleration without friction). You don't seem to get the same heat generated by Rheostatic braking that you do with the newer stocks.

The Bakerloo and Victoria are very hot due to the dead-end tunnel end at Elephant & Castle and the fact that the Victoria Line is totally underground, so both suffer from poor ventilation. On the Bakerloo 2/3 of trains are only briefly above ground each trip (Queens Park terminaters) so don;t get a chance to aerate and cool down to surface temperature.

I would say that the Piccadilly should be analogous with the Central and Northern however, with similar lengths of deep-level tube which open to the outside world at both ends, but the Central in particular feels much hotter.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 02:11 AM   #3590
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Hi tubeman. Just finished whole 180 pages! Really great read (including the arguments )

I got questions!

- If the Olympia branch were closed down, could the platforms (and adjacent Metronet buildings you mentioned in one post) be used to improve through services at Earl/s court?

- If above happened, how would you improve West London line/Olympia connection with the District? Could West Ken be moved further east and a new WLL station added for example?

- Do you know anywhere I could get hold of artists impressions or similar of the unbuilt stations on the Northern and Central lines? Metro Models does Elstree South!

- Could the Terminal 5 spur of the Piccadilly line easily loop north through terminal 6 and under the line near terminal's 1,2,3 to take over the rest of the loop through Terminal 4 and back to Hatton Cross? I guess the service pattern would be a figure of 8 going Hatton X-T4-T6-T5-T1,2,3-Hatton X.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 09:48 AM   #3591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I think it might be partly explained by the Tube stocks... The newer stocks seem to kick off a lot of heat braking (I'm not an expert in the field of newer stocks as I never drove them, but I think they have some form of regenerative braking which transforms kinetic energy back into electricity which is fed back into the current rails).

The Piccadilly Line 1973 Stock have Rheostatic braking which has a similar principle (during braking kinetic energy is used to generate an opposite field in the traction motors to that needed for acceleration, causing deceleration without friction). You don't seem to get the same heat generated by Rheostatic braking that you do with the newer stocks.

The Bakerloo and Victoria are very hot due to the dead-end tunnel end at Elephant & Castle and the fact that the Victoria Line is totally underground, so both suffer from poor ventilation. On the Bakerloo 2/3 of trains are only briefly above ground each trip (Queens Park terminaters) so don;t get a chance to aerate and cool down to surface temperature.

I would say that the Piccadilly should be analogous with the Central and Northern however, with similar lengths of deep-level tube which open to the outside world at both ends, but the Central in particular feels much hotter.
Tubeman, if anything (based on what I learnt when I went to electronics school) it should be the other way round.

Both regenative and rehostatic braking turns the motor into a generator, this then places a load on the motor which slows the train down. Where they differ is what happens to the electricity that has been created.

With regenative the energy created by the momentum of the train is converted to electricty which is then feed back into the line. The load placed on the motor (which is now a generator) will then assist to slow the train down.

Rehostatic braking on the other hand feeds the power into rehostats which are simply variable resistors. These resistors turn the power generated by the motors into HEAT which in turn puts a load on the motors which slows the train down.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 10:18 AM   #3592
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Tubeman, if anything (based on what I learnt when I went to electronics school) it should be the other way round.

Both regenative and rehostatic braking turns the motor into a generator, this then places a load on the motor which slows the train down. Where they differ is what happens to the electricity that has been created.

With regenative the energy created by the momentum of the train is converted to electricty which is then feed back into the line. The load placed on the motor (which is now a generator) will then assist to slow the train down.

Rehostatic braking on the other hand feeds the power into rehostats which are simply variable resistors. These resistors turn the power generated by the motors into HEAT which in turn puts a load on the motors which slows the train down.
Fair enough... As I said; no expert (although I was most of the way there!)... I can't explain it then, unless it's the fact that the Central Line runs ATO and accelerates and brakes much more aggressively, thus generating more energy which needs to be dissipated during braking. With a human being driving, you'll generally coast a lot more and run at lower speeds if you're aware of being close to the train in front (reduces the risk of a signal overrun if nothing else). On ATO lines, trains accelerate as fast as they can until they pick up the code to brake as they approach the train in front when they then brake as hard as they can; it minimises headways, but wastes energy.

I must say that even on manual lines with new trains (I'm thinking Northern Line 95TS), sometimes the amount of heat you feel being kicked off the train as it enters a platform is immense compared to older stocks... maybe all I'm feeling is air being vented from the car interiors?
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Old July 1st, 2009, 11:32 AM   #3593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetquark View Post
Hi tubeman. Just finished whole 180 pages! Really great read (including the arguments )
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by streetquark View Post
If the Olympia branch were closed down, could the platforms (and adjacent Metronet buildings you mentioned in one post) be used to improve through services at Earl/s court?
You'd get the benefit of more capacity through Earl's Court (4 tph through platform 4 and 4 tph through platforms 1/2), so in that regard yes... It is quite a well patronised service though so wouldn't have a cost-benefit.

The Olympia branch runs parallel to the eastbound 'main' up until a few yards west of Earl's Court platform 1, but unfortuately the tunnel does narrow to two tracks (1 ex-Wimbledon, 1 ex-West Kensington) under the orignal Warwick Road overbridge; aside from this bridge everything else west of here is in fact covered way (it was once open air), rafted over when Earl's Court Exhibition hall was built in the 1930's. It would be possible (but very disruptive) to widen the Warwick Rd overbridge to span 3 tracks and extend the Olympia branch beyond the sand-drag to continue parallel to the track to platform 1; there is room for a short (3 car?) platform where the LU / Metronet buildings are. This option would allow for a single short unit to shuttle between Earl's Court and Olympia, and also free up 4tph of capacity each direction through the station. Another benefit is that the Olympia service would become much more reliable, as currently it'll often block back into Earl's Court and can sometimes embarrassingly take up to 10 minutes to manage the one stop from Olympia to Earl's Court. This option would make the service completely self-contained. I'd personally use the extra capacity by running a 15-minute Wimbledon to High Street Ken shuttle.

The only problem beyond the cost of the works at Earl's Court is I don't know what the shortest S Stock formation will be... I have the impression they'll be in articulated 6, 7 & 8 car sets (although this seems to keep changing) which would preclude running 3 car sets... I don't know if the Chesham shuttle will remain a short formation or run as 8 cars for ease of operations?

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- If above happened, how would you improve West London line/Olympia connection with the District? Could West Ken be moved further east and a new WLL station added for example?
I think West Kensington is close enough to the WLL for a reasonable interchange to be provided via a walkway if platforms were built on the WLL, only trouble is the new station would be very close to West Brompton for one and would secondly only really be of any use as an interchange as it's in no-mans land. West Brompton would remain an adequate WLL to District Line interchange, although this doesn't help customers travelling into London ex Richmond / Ealing Broadway.

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Originally Posted by streetquark View Post
- Do you know anywhere I could get hold of artists impressions or similar of the unbuilt stations on the Northern and Central lines? Metro Models does Elstree South!
There's a few bits & pieces in 'The Northern Line' I think, including layout of the Elstree Depot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by streetquark View Post
- Could the Terminal 5 spur of the Piccadilly line easily loop north through terminal 6 and under the line near terminal's 1,2,3 to take over the rest of the loop through Terminal 4 and back to Hatton Cross? I guess the service pattern would be a figure of 8 going Hatton X-T4-T6-T5-T1,2,3-Hatton X.
I don't know how easily the line can be extended beyond T5; there is provision for the Airtrack lines to head west out of the station so hopefully not too difficult... It would have been shortsighted not to build the Picc and HEX tracks for through running considering T6 was already on the cards (I'm almost certain they are, as the Picc crossover is beyond the platform). I like the idea of having all Heathrow Terminals served by all Picc Line trains, the current arrangement is less than ideal. If the T4 Loop was doubled, then services could alternate between:

Hatton Cross - T123 - T5 - T6 - T4 - T123 - Hatton Cross (clockwise)

and:

Hatton Cross - T123 - T4 - T6 - T5 - T123 - Hatton Cross (anticlockwise)

This means too that you could get a Picc Line train between any 2 terminals without changing, so it would become a useful 'peoplemover' linking all the terminals (getting from T4 to T5 currently is a pain in the a***, for example).
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Old July 1st, 2009, 02:35 PM   #3594
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Just had it confirmed:

The Second edition of my book is out tomorrow, order it on Amazon now (although I'd be happier if you bought it in a shop because I'd get 50p more!)
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Old July 1st, 2009, 03:52 PM   #3595
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Hi Tubeman,

I would like to ask you about job opportunities I'm a 17-years-old student (18 in December), staying in London for about next 3 months. Is there any possibility for a post of, let's say, assistant working at the ticket office, arranging the tube maps on the station shelves, helping passengers with heavy luggage (etc.)? My English is quite good and I'm particularly interested in London transport system - both roads and trains, so my topographic knowledge is not so bad . For example, when I was younger, I used to travel on tube trains just for pleasure and collect the guide maps (bus maps, journey planners) - I still keep them at my house.

Please don't regard this as a sort of 'begging' for a job. My intention is to ask for the basic information - job vacancies for a summer period, where to apply, average pay. Many thanks for any advice

a3c4
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Old July 1st, 2009, 05:16 PM   #3596
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Quote:
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Just had it confirmed:

The Second edition of my book is out tomorrow, order it on Amazon now (although I'd be happier if you bought it in a shop because I'd get 50p more!)
Which shops in London would definitely stock it? Might drop in after work. London Transport Museum could work but would be a bit of a detour for me.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 08:09 PM   #3597
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Which shops in London would definitely stock it? Might drop in after work. London Transport Museum could work but would be a bit of a detour for me.
Any decent-sized bookshop I'm sure, I've found it in any major bookshop I've ever looked in in London. Look in the transport and / or the London section. Motor Books off Charing Cross Road is a dead cert to have loads, they're a transport specialist... But not a million miles from the LT Museum so I guess also out of your way.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 08:11 PM   #3598
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Hi Tubeman,

I would like to ask you about job opportunities I'm a 17-years-old student (18 in December), staying in London for about next 3 months. Is there any possibility for a post of, let's say, assistant working at the ticket office, arranging the tube maps on the station shelves, helping passengers with heavy luggage (etc.)? My English is quite good and I'm particularly interested in London transport system - both roads and trains, so my topographic knowledge is not so bad . For example, when I was younger, I used to travel on tube trains just for pleasure and collect the guide maps (bus maps, journey planners) - I still keep them at my house.

Please don't regard this as a sort of 'begging' for a job. My intention is to ask for the basic information - job vacancies for a summer period, where to apply, average pay. Many thanks for any advice

a3c4
Sorry we don't employ casual labour, we only recruit full-time staff and you'd spend more than a third of your 3 months in training. If you ever consider a permanent move, I'm happy to advise you about getting a permanent CSA job (Customer Service Assistant).
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Old July 1st, 2009, 09:35 PM   #3599
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Charing Cross Road will do me fine, I'll see if I can get it tomorrow.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 09:43 PM   #3600
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Thanks for the replies.

Great news about the book. I've had it on order for yonks! I so wanted the old edition as I never had it but held out so this is fantastic news.

Quote:
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The only problem beyond the cost of the works at Earl's Court is I don't know what the shortest S Stock formation will be... I have the impression they'll be in articulated 6, 7 & 8 car sets (although this seems to keep changing) which would preclude running 3 car sets... I don't know if the Chesham shuttle will remain a short formation or run as 8 cars for ease of operations?
Could the shuttle stick with existing SSR stock for longer?

Quote:
I think West Kensington is close enough to the WLL for a reasonable interchange to be provided via a walkway if platforms were built on the WLL, only trouble is the new station would be very close to West Brompton for one and would secondly only really be of any use as an interchange as it's in no-mans land. West Brompton would remain an adequate WLL to District Line interchange, although this doesn't help customers travelling into London ex Richmond / Ealing Broadway.
I was thinking of it in conjunction with the Olympia shuttle being closed - it would be the replacement for that service and Earl's Court gets increased reliability and capacity. But West Brompton covers that.

As you say though Acton District line and then there's the Piccadilly line. Too costly unless one already exists under West Ken we don't know about.

I don't think the station would be that isolated - it would be off the Cromwell Road like West Ken. It's about the same distance from Earl's Court as Brompton is too.

Quote:
There's a few bits & pieces...
Thanks tubes.

Quote:
Hatton Cross - T123 - T5 - T6 - T4 - T123 - Hatton Cross (clockwise)

and:

Hatton Cross - T123 - T4 - T6 - T5 - T123 - Hatton Cross (anticlockwise)

This means too that you could get a Picc Line train between any 2 terminals without changing, so it would become a useful 'peoplemover' linking all the terminals (getting from T4 to T5 currently is a pain in the a***, for example).
Without doubling...

There's a sharp turn east where the loop meets the spur from T5, ideal for heading north to T6, so it could go HC - T4 - T6 - T5 - T123 and the only abandoned bits would be a short curve between T123 and t5 and any double track (unless they double tracked the rest...).

Or it could go through T123 twice:

HC - T4 - T123 as now then new spur looping round north through T6 and curve round facing T5 from the west then along the existing line past T123 again to HC. This would be HC-T4-T123-T6-T5-T123-HC. if T123 was higher traffic it would make sense.

Finally here's an idea for one big loop:

A curve going east from the loop after T4 and onto the T5 spur, then loop round to face southwards at T6 then a new route to join the existing loop again before it heads east through T123

So you get HC - T4 - T5 - T6 - T123 - HC
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