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Old July 22nd, 2009, 11:21 PM   #3641
iampuking
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterstar View Post
The new stocks on the Victoria and Overground look awesome

Tubeman, I'm not sure if you've had this one before, but I have a suggestion for the tubes east from Mile End. Have the Central line take over towards Barking and Upminster, and in turn have the District and H&C going towards Epping / Hainult, with one of them taking the Hainult loop.

However, I guess the current Central line tunnels would not be big enough to accomodate sub-surface stock, and there'd be alot of engineering involved.

Your thoughts?
What purpose is there to this proposal... It's simply lines swapping routes!
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 12:35 AM   #3642
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An idea is to break up the Central at Bank with the east London end heading south of the river and the route from the West End heading south east. It's another tube for south London idea and does away with the tight curves between Bank and Liverpool Street.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 09:29 PM   #3643
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An idea is to break up the Central at Bank with the east London end heading south of the river and the route from the West End heading south east. It's another tube for south London idea and does away with the tight curves between Bank and Liverpool Street.
I've pondered similar for the Piccadilly Line at both Holborn and Knightsbridge... The current line is an amalgamation of 3 different Tube schemes and that's painfully apparent from the sharp curves linking South Kensington to Knightsbridge and Covent Garden to Holborn.

The Aldwych branch could be re-opened and extended southwards to Waterloo and beyond into South London, thus a Cockfosters to South London north-south line, while the route ex-Covent Garden could burrow underneath the existing Piccadilly Line with new platforms at Holborn and on eastwards to Farringdon, maybe then taking over the redundant NR lines Farringdon to Moorgate and thence eastwards. At its western end, this line (logically remaining the Piccadilly Line, running under Piccadilly) would head due west from Knightsbridge to Albert Hall, High Street Ken, Olympia, Shepherds Bush, Goldhawk Road, Askew Road, Turnham Green and thence to Richmond. The remaining western portion out to Heathrow could become as intended an express District Line, continuing east from South Kensington perhaps stopping only at Victoria, Westminster, Embankment, Blackfriars, Monument... then... ?

Well, we can dream.

I don't get the point of swapping the Central and subsurface lines at Mile End though, sorry... That's a lot of tunnel widening from Mile End to Leyton and Leytonstone to Newbury Park with no great benefit that I can see.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 10:25 PM   #3644
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Yes I thought about the Picc but I was thinking we have to placate some (not all!) Sarf Londoners and I'm not sure the Picc from Heathrow would look good heading south.

Maybe Knightsbridge-Holborn could head south east and over the river. Otherwise the 70's Chelney route would be good...

We know all about Northern, Bakerloo and Victoria southward proposals. Jubilee could be extended southwards to Westcombe Park, use the Blackheath tunnels, then head for Kidbrooke, offering a north-south relief for the Dartford loop.

On the SSR the Met east of Liverpool Street should head for London Bridge of course and just so no one complains SSR and Crossrail are still too much north of the river we could give them their own SSR/Crossrail based on London Bridge-Waterloo joining SE and SW services.
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Old July 23rd, 2009, 11:21 PM   #3645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
I've pondered similar for the Piccadilly Line at both Holborn and Knightsbridge... The current line is an amalgamation of 3 different Tube schemes and that's painfully apparent from the sharp curves linking South Kensington to Knightsbridge and Covent Garden to Holborn.
Another solution for the sharp curves near South Kensington might be re-routing the Piccadilly Line via a tunnel under Cromwell Road. It would bypass South Kensington station and could have a new station "Cromwell Road" in front of the Natural History Museum. It would just require a short new tunnel between Gloucester Road and Cromwell Gardens, while Piccadilly Circus and Holborn can keep their direct connection with Heathrow.

I have also dreams of a "new" Jubilee Line branch to Charing Cross (make use of the existing tunnel) continuing to Holborn via Aldwych (using the former branch of the Piccadilly Line), just requiring a short new tunnel between Charing Cross to Aldwych. You could even continue to King's Cross and Cockfosters, especially if the Piccadilly Line would run from Holborn to Farringdon and Moorgate, as in your plan.
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Old July 24th, 2009, 12:49 AM   #3646
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I can't see TfL ever splitting an existing line and making service patterns more complicated very quickly, especially not in the centre of London. The Jubilee should take over the Overground from Stratford to Dalston I think, with all Overground trains running from Camden Road via the East London Line southwards.
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Old July 24th, 2009, 10:27 AM   #3647
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Quote:
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The remaining western portion out to Heathrow could become as intended an express District Line, continuing east from South Kensington perhaps stopping only at Victoria, Westminster, Embankment, Blackfriars, Monument... then... ?
I have often wondered why the airport wasn't served by the district line. Are the tunnels on the Heathrow branch of the Piccadilly line capable of taking district line stock or would they have to be expanded?
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Old July 24th, 2009, 12:45 PM   #3648
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I have often wondered why the airport wasn't served by the district line. Are the tunnels on the Heathrow branch of the Piccadilly line capable of taking district line stock or would they have to be expanded?
They can't take them. District lines can run as far as Hounslow. As long as the Districdt is the 'slow' line I see no point in running it to Heathrow.
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Old July 24th, 2009, 07:47 PM   #3649
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They can't take them. District lines can run as far as Hounslow. As long as the Districdt is the 'slow' line I see no point in running it to Heathrow.
That wasn't the question. The question was about any physical limitation, ie the size of tunnels or some other reason.
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Old July 24th, 2009, 10:09 PM   #3650
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Another solution for the sharp curves near South Kensington might be re-routing the Piccadilly Line via a tunnel under Cromwell Road. It would bypass South Kensington station and could have a new station "Cromwell Road" in front of the Natural History Museum. It would just require a short new tunnel between Gloucester Road and Cromwell Gardens, while Piccadilly Circus and Holborn can keep their direct connection with Heathrow.

I have also dreams of a "new" Jubilee Line branch to Charing Cross (make use of the existing tunnel) continuing to Holborn via Aldwych (using the former branch of the Piccadilly Line), just requiring a short new tunnel between Charing Cross to Aldwych. You could even continue to King's Cross and Cockfosters, especially if the Piccadilly Line would run from Holborn to Farringdon and Moorgate, as in your plan.
Wouldn't work. The overrun tunnels from Charing Cross almost reach Aldgate, but at 90 degrees to the old Piccadilly tunnels. The turn would be too tight for trains, plus I'm not sure if the tunnels are on the same level.

Second - the platform arrangement at Holborn would not allow through running without extensive remodelling and new tunnels (which is why the Piccadilly only ever ran as a shuttle between Aldwych and Holborn).

I better solution would be to run the DLR from Bank to Charing Cross using the old Jubilee platforms and a station at Aldgate
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Old July 24th, 2009, 10:30 PM   #3651
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I wonder if it would be good for the Piccadilly Line to run south from Holborn to Waterloo...

I think there was a plan to do that before Aldwych closed...

Aldwych could be re-opened and linked to Temple station...
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Old July 25th, 2009, 11:46 AM   #3652
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That wasn't the question. The question was about any physical limitation, ie the size of tunnels or some other reason.
Yes, size of tunnels. The Hounslow West branch (as then was) was built by the District Railway, the Piccadilly Line came later and they both ran to Hounslow West until 1964 when the District Line services were withdrawn.

When the Heathrow extension commenced, opening to Hatton Cross (1975), Heathrow 'Central' (1977) and Terminal 4 (1986) it was built to Tube dimensions.

District trains still 'take a wrongun' (i.e. accept the wrong signal) at Acton Town from time to time and end up heading toward Heathrow, but they never get beyond Northfields Depot, where they reverse.
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Old July 25th, 2009, 11:57 AM   #3653
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I can't see TfL ever splitting an existing line and making service patterns more complicated very quickly, especially not in the centre of London. The Jubilee should take over the Overground from Stratford to Dalston I think, with all Overground trains running from Camden Road via the East London Line southwards.
There certainly wouldn't be any splits in Central London; reinstating the Jubilee through Charing Cross and beyond would instantly reduce tph through Canary Wharf, which is a big no-no.

I like the idea of extending the Jubilee beyond Stratford to Dalston, trouble is the DLR have nicked the route through the Low Level platforms and driving a parallel route beyond the Jubilee buffer stops under the regional station would be hugely disruptive. Assuming this can be done, the eastern curve at Dalston Junction could be reinstated so that the Jubilee runs into Dalston Junction station rather than terminating at Dalston Kingsland, allowing better interchange for onward travel.

Despite properly putting Hackney on the Tube map, I fear this would disadvantage residents there though, because at present they have LOROL trains direct to Highbury & Islington for interchange and access to the West End, whereas unless they fancy taking a very circuitous Jubilee journey via Stratford, Canning Town and North Greenwich they'll have to change twice to get there via the Victoria Line, or take a circuitous route with one change to go via Central Line from Stratford.
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Old July 25th, 2009, 12:10 PM   #3654
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One idea I'd like to see is the conversion of the entire SSR network to NR standards (i.e. what has been done to the ELL) and full integration with the existing LOROL network.

Current or once removed connections could be used to allow a wide range of services, essentially turning the north and south sides of the Circle into two parallel Crossrails. The possibilities are almost limitless, e.g. a reinstated connection at Kensington Olympia could allow trains to run from Watford Junction via Willesden Junction, Olympia, Earl's Court and through Central London via the District Line.

The St Mary's Curve could be used to run services from South London via the ELL and onto the District Line or round the H&C side of the Circle, or with dual-voltage stock trains could run off the C2C route at a reinstated Campbell Road Junction and through Central London via the District or H&C Lines.

If West Ealing to Greenford were electrified then dual voltage trains could run from Greenford via the GWR and onto the H&C at Paddington, or beyond Ealing Broadway ex-District and up to Greenford... Also the Heathrow Connect trains could continue beyond Paddington into Central London via the H&C... As I said, limitless possibilities.

To me it makes sense to make full use of the SSR tunnels' surface stock size to integrate them fully into the NR network under the TFL 'Overground' brand, thus the 'Tube' really would be that (i.e. the deep level Tube lines).
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Old July 25th, 2009, 01:27 PM   #3655
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The Aldwych branch could be re-opened and extended southwards to Waterloo and beyond into South London, thus a Cockfosters to South London north-south line, while the route ex-Covent Garden could burrow underneath the existing Piccadilly Line with new platforms at Holborn and on eastwards to Farringdon, maybe then taking over the redundant NR lines Farringdon to Moorgate and thence eastwards.
I love this idea. I would build new Piccadilly line platforms at Holborn and Farringdon, a new station north of Barbican, Old Street, Hoxton then in areas of East London not well served at present, and which Chelney/Crossrail 2 will miss by going via Kings Cross.

Not sure what to do with the southbound extension - I already want the Northern line and Bakerloo line to be extended into the same area...
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Old July 25th, 2009, 04:52 PM   #3656
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I love this idea. I would build new Piccadilly line platforms at Holborn and Farringdon, a new station north of Barbican, Old Street, Hoxton then in areas of East London not well served at present, and which Chelney/Crossrail 2 will miss by going via Kings Cross.

Not sure what to do with the southbound extension - I already want the Northern line and Bakerloo line to be extended into the same area...
I think there are 3 priority extension paths into south London:

1) Walworth Road / Camberwell / Peckham (logically Bakerloo)

2) Brixton / Brixton Hill / Streatham (logically Northern Line ex-Kennington)

3) Old Kent Road / New Cross / Lewisham (then Hayes and / or Bromley North)

So the 3rd route could be the Cockfosters - Aldwych line extension
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Old July 25th, 2009, 05:37 PM   #3657
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That wasn't the question. The question was about any physical limitation, ie the size of tunnels or some other reason.
I answered that bit in my first sentence; They [the tunnels] can't take them [the trains].

Also Tubeman: In theory, if we're going to be four-tracking part of the Overground anyway, the Jubilee could be extended all the way to Camden Road with cross-platform interchanges there for people from Hackney going even further west.

Last edited by sweek; July 25th, 2009 at 07:01 PM.
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Old July 25th, 2009, 06:04 PM   #3658
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Tubeman, how likely is it we'll see the DLR trains in the new TfL style rail livery? In other words based on the current LU livery but with the tube's red doors/cabs substituted for the turquoise of the DLR roundel.

London Overground has adopted the style for the new class 378 with orange doors, albeit with a yellow cab because of National Rail regulations, plus the addition of a thin orange stripe above the blue skirt.

Tramlink stock has also been re-liveried with Tramlink-green cabs, a green stripe and a green roof. I'm not sure why the doors are black instead of green. You'd think they'd want to follow the LU / LO style.
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Old July 26th, 2009, 02:54 PM   #3659
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I always think that they should divert the Bakerloo Line at Kilburn Park north. The London Overground can continue to serve the stations north of Queens Park.

Rather than going to Queens Park from Kilburn Park it should go north, to Kilburn and Brondesbury where is should be build to interchange with the Jubilee and Overground lines...And the up Edgware Road with several station that can join with the Edgware branch of the Northern Line.
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Old July 27th, 2009, 03:19 PM   #3660
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I'd extend it north-east from Hendon/Golders Green/Brent X to Finchley instead of up the Edgware branch and probably head off for Kilburn High Road from south of Kilburn Park because the Bakerloo curves to the west and you don't miss an interchange with LOROL. It does seem a waste to make Kilburn Park-Queens Park obsolete though.

This would allow the Bakerloo tracks between Queens Park and Willesden Junction to be used for high frequency LO services from Dalston via Primrose Hill (instead of West Hampstead that I think is too long). A relatively short tunnel from York Way/Maiden Lane/King's X North (where a station should be on the NLL) to Primrose Hill with one station under Camden Town (during its redevelopment) then using the suburban tracks to Queens Park and Willesden (I'd tunnel just east of Willesden Jcn to make a new subterranean station with proper platforms under the existing low level station and swing round to the West London line part of LOROL). This sorts out the problem of the Camden Road bottleneck and flat junction further west and allows for LOROL trains (NLL/ELL, orbital or a combination) to use the Bakerloo headways north of Willesden Junction (by extending NLL/ELL services from Camden and/or more WLL trains northward).

An alternative north of Kilburn for the Bakerloo could be the MML to Mill Hill or Elstree with some new stations e.g. Apex Corner, Hendon RAF Museum (interchange with new Northern station). You could keep to the old route to just south-east of Queens Park then swing round north to Brondesbury/Kilburn stations then on to West Hampstead or Cricklewood. The MML has 6 tracks to near the RAF museum and could have 6 up to Scratchwood services for a Parkway, but there would need to be stabling facilities, maybe a depot.

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I think there are 3 priority extension paths into south London:

1) Walworth Road / Camberwell / Peckham (logically Bakerloo)

2) Brixton / Brixton Hill / Streatham (logically Northern Line ex-Kennington)

3) Old Kent Road / New Cross / Lewisham (then Hayes and / or Bromley North)

So the 3rd route could be the Cockfosters - Aldwych line extension
Well they're probably going to mess that up with the Battersea/Clapham Junction extension of the Kennington branch! From Clapham Junction you could extend whichever line goes there to Wimbledon and beyond and cover part of Chelney.

The DLR is planned to go to Victoria via Charing X and it would be better for it to be extended to Clapham Junction instead of the Northern. It would alleviate the Vic too. That would allow the Northern to head south. Even with the Northern Clapham Junction extension, the DLR could go there too and then on to Clapham North, Streatham Hill etc.

If you could get all these tube/DLR extensions southwards you could probably justify extending the Victoria as it won't be so overloaded. I guess you'd go Herne hill, Tulse hill, West Norwood etc. as south London could probably take all 6 (including the Jubilee swinging south to Kidbrooke).
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