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Old August 7th, 2009, 12:02 AM   #3701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1LONDONER View Post
Tubeman, can I ask howcome LU choose the current style for the new victoria line stock as opposed to the type of stock used for the London Oveground, where it is all walk through?

Not that I'd particularly want that style but I would have thought that they would've tried to get as much as extra capacity as possible out of what they currently have (space).


Also how come some (maybe all?) tube trains are like two cars stuck together, as they have a drivers unit in the middle?
I don't know what went wrong with the 2009 Stock; we were going to get the 'Space train' with extra small wheels leading to taller cars which were all going to be articulated... Instead we've ended up with an (admittedly good looking) conventional Tube train with separate cars. The obvious answer is cost, but its a shame.

Regarding your second question, LU trains and EMUs in general are formed of 'units' of 2-4 cars, coupled together to form trains for operational reasons.

One reason is to give the ability to vary train lengths depending on demand: this is still commonplace on the mainline, and used to be on LU when shorter single-unit trains (i.e. 3 or 4 cars) were run between the peaks while monster trains of up to 9 cars were run on the Northern Line in the 1930's (selective door opening and non-stopping of some platforms).

Another reason is to avoid trains being completely stricken by a defect; if a train is actually effectively 2 trains coupled together, then if one unit gets a serious defect (e.g. air burst) which would otherwise render it immovable, it can be isolated from the 'good' unit, and the good unit can push or pull the defective unit around.

Following from this, if there's a serious issue with a train that needs heavy lifting in depot, the 'good' half can be detatched and perhaps coupled to another 'good' half of a similarly knackered train, so that rather than having two knackered trains, you effectively only have one. This sort of tinkering with formations is pretty common.

Similarly, it is useful to be able to 'split' a train in emergencies, e.g. to allow access if there's a 'one under' halfway along the train, or if a portion has derailed, or god forbid been bombed.

For this reason therefore, each unit needs to have a cab or at least driving controls at both ends. You'll notice that many LU trains don't appear to have cabs in the middle, if they don't, they will have basic driving controls at the inner end of each unit hidden inside a cabinet to allow driving if the train has been split into units.

Older Stocks, like the A60 on the Metropolitan Line, are simply formed of 2 x 4-car units with driving cabs at both ends, i.e. in the middle there are 2 driving cabs coupled together. This allows 4-cars to run on the Chesham shuttle, and also formerly on the East London Line.

Similarly, the Victoria 1967 and Bakerloo 1972 are essentially 2 trains coupled together with a pair of driving cabs in the middle... the 1967 are 4+4 while the 1972 are 4+3.

The first current stock to move away from this is the Circle / H&C / District Lines C69 Stock. These trains all consist of 3 x 2-car units coupled together, each 2 car unit has a driving cab at one end and shunting controls at the other. This means every C Stock has a single driving cab sandwiched between either cars 2 and 3, or between cars 4 and 5.

Two anomalies are the D78 (District) and 1973 (Piccadilly) where sometimes you'll see a single driving cab in the middle, but usually not. This is because both stocks were built with specific routes needing short formations in mind: the D78 for the East London Line, and the 1973 for the Aldwych shuttle. Both required a certain proportion of the fleet to be built as 3-car units with driving cabs at both ends, whilst the majority are 3-car units with a driving cab at one end and shunting controls inside a cabinet at the other. In the end all the ELL D78 stock trains were demanded back by the District Line due to timetable increases in the 1980's, and the Aldwych shuttle closed... negating the need for the 'Double ended' units on either line. Now they just run around coupled to the usual 'Single-ended' 3-car units, thus some trains with a driving cab in the middle.

Finally, the most modern stocks range from the Central 1992 stock, which is 4 x 2-car units, to the Jubilee & Northern 1995 & 1996 stocks, which are both a single 6-car train.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 04:08 PM   #3702
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Why's the Bakerloo down over Bank hols? Are you annoyed?


Also - are there ever any attempts to do line speed increases on LU - especially outside of the tunnelled areas? I ask becuase I think certain suburban routes could be a fair bit faster.

For example, Hammersmith to Osterley, I think you could shave a good 3 mins off by hammering it a bit more as there are some nice long stretches.
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Old August 7th, 2009, 08:29 PM   #3703
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Why's the Bakerloo down over Bank hols? Are you annoyed?


Also - are there ever any attempts to do line speed increases on LU - especially outside of the tunnelled areas? I ask becuase I think certain suburban routes could be a fair bit faster.

For example, Hammersmith to Osterley, I think you could shave a good 3 mins off by hammering it a bit more as there are some nice long stretches.
Bakerloo's closing primarily to replace the crossover at Piccadilly Circus; it's been out of commission since before I joined the line and essentially means if there's anything serious kicking off in Central London we lose the entire line south of Paddington (only other crossover between Queen's Park and Lambeth North). For example, yesterday a track fire between Embankment and Waterloo shut us down for 75 minutes all the way from Paddington to Elephant... If Picc Points were operational, we'd have been able to run from Piccadilly Circus to Harrow & Wealdstone.

There's other 'opportunity' works taking place, like asbestos removal at Regent's Park and loads of other track work.

Regarding speed increases above ground, the current limitation is track condition mainly. Traditional 'bullhead' rails on wooden sleepers are slowly being replaced with flat-bottomed rail on concrete sleepers, giving a far superior ride quality and allowing higher speeds, but this is pretty piecemeal.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 12:21 AM   #3704
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Do the cross-overs work both ways? Would you be able to run Piccadilly Circus - Elephant and Castle, or would that not be interesting enough given that all but one of those stations are interchanges?
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Old August 8th, 2009, 02:28 AM   #3705
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Do the cross-overs work both ways? Would you be able to run Piccadilly Circus - Elephant and Castle, or would that not be interesting enough given that all but one of those stations are interchanges?
Yes, but with an 'emergency' crossover it's easier to reverse one way than the other... But the explanation is a bit complex...

An emergency crossover (as opposed to a 'scissors' crossover) only links the two tracks in one direction. This means that one move is straightforward; a train runs the right way into a platform, stops, the driver changes ends, then is able to depart back in the other direction as the crossover takes the train over to the other track, this is the case for reversing SB to NB at Piccadilly Circus.

The opposite direction is more complicated; a train needs to stop in the platform, detrain its passengers, then depart in the same ('right') direction beyond the platform into the tunnel to a point called the 'Limit of shunt' (usually marked by a metal plate on the track or tunnel wall), before the driver changes ends and is then faced by the crossover to take them back in the opposite direction toward the station again. This is the case for NB to SB at Piccadilly Circus.

Therefore SB to NB is easier at Piccadilly Circus than NB to SB, but either is possible (or will be after Bank Holiday weekend).

Either manoevre causes delays because either manoevre involves a train being shut down on the running line while the driver changes ends, so reversing via a reversing siding (e.g. Tooting Broadway, Archway) or a reversing central platform (e.g. Golders Green, Arnos Grove, White City) is preferable, and these crossovers are literally for 'emergencies' only.
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Old August 8th, 2009, 10:35 AM   #3706
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If the 2009 stock had smaller wheels to give more height inside,wouldn't the floor be lower than station platforms?
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Old August 8th, 2009, 12:42 PM   #3707
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Quote:
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If the 2009 stock had smaller wheels to give more height inside,wouldn't the floor be lower than station platforms?
Yes, but the 1967 stock floors are already about 6 inches above the platforms so maybe they wouldn't have needed to be lowered much.... The cost of platform lowering was probably one of the considerations when the 'Space train' was rejected.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 06:18 PM   #3708
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After hearing about the proposed battersea link i changed the future map tube map i have been working on to this ...



whats missing at the moment:

changes to the circle line ... not sure how this works does anyone have a image drawing of what is planned ?

also comments on the above map please ...

chris
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Old August 9th, 2009, 08:06 PM   #3709
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whats missing at the moment:

changes to the circle line ... not sure how this works does anyone have a image drawing of what is planned ?

also comments on the above map please ...

chris
Very pretty

The Circle Line will run Hammersmith to Edgware Road via a lap of the Circle and back again:

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Old August 9th, 2009, 09:23 PM   #3710
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Nice map Chris

I would change the Northern Line split though. I would join the Edgeware Branch with the westend branch to Kennington - this was the original Hamstead Tube and I would name it "Hamstead Line" to recognise it's origins.

Then I would run the Northern from Morden to High Barnett and Mill Hill East - this is the original City and South London Railway - could be renamed to this or left as Northern Line.

Queens Park Overground I would run to Stratford, abandon Euston - there is a freight only link that could be opened to connect to the existing Overground Line to Stratford.

Eurostar should be named HS1 as more than just Eurostars will use that line

I beleive there was thought of switching the District and Piccadilly north of Acton town - so that Piccadilly goes to Ealing Broadway and District to Uxbridge - better match of stock on the Uxbridge line and better use of Piccadilly trains.
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Old August 9th, 2009, 09:52 PM   #3711
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Yeah it would be Edgware - Charing Cross - Kennington - Clapham Junction and High Barnet - Bank - Morden. This is to make sure that there is one depot for each line (Morden and Golders Green being the only two along the line)
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Old August 9th, 2009, 10:08 PM   #3712
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Also - Crossrail is not right - it doesn't run through Heathrow (but there is a branch) and it branches east of Liverpool Street

See this link
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/the-railw...aps&modal=true
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Old August 11th, 2009, 06:35 PM   #3713
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will the hammersmith line change ?
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Old August 11th, 2009, 08:08 PM   #3714
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Quote:
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will the hammersmith line change ?
No, it'll still run to Barking as at present. The good thing is this new pattern will increase the frequency Hammermsith to Edgware Road, which will appease Westfield.
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Old August 11th, 2009, 09:51 PM   #3715
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updates:

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Old August 12th, 2009, 03:53 AM   #3716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
Nice map Chris

I would change the Northern Line split though. I would join the Edgeware Branch with the westend branch to Kennington - this was the original Hamstead Tube and I would name it "Hamstead Line" to recognise it's origins.
I would call the 2 parts the City Line (Edgeware-Morden) and High Barnet or Charing Cross Line (High Barnet-Kennington)
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Old August 12th, 2009, 04:33 AM   #3717
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updates:

Nice - though the line to Edgeware should be the Hamstead Line as it runs under Hamstead Heath

Nice map though.
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Old August 12th, 2009, 12:32 PM   #3718
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Have you done consulting work in developing countries?
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Old August 12th, 2009, 04:17 PM   #3719
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I alway thought The Bakerloo Line should do this...

Here is just a quick map to show my idea...

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Old August 12th, 2009, 08:46 PM   #3720
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Quote:
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updates:
Is Crossrail on your map missing Paddington intentionally?
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