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Old August 12th, 2009, 10:03 PM   #3721
Tubeman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
I would call the 2 parts the City Line (Edgeware-Morden) and High Barnet or Charing Cross Line (High Barnet-Kennington)
As I've explained before, it would have to be Edgware - Charing Cross - Kennington versus High Barnet - Bank - Morden for operational reasons.

The latter could happily remain 'Northern' (as in Northern Heights) while I'd name the former it's historical nickname 'Hampstead Tube'. Job done
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Old August 12th, 2009, 11:58 PM   #3722
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Is Crossrail on your map missing Paddington intentionally?
It's also decided to go via Mile End and alongside the District to upminster instead of Whitechapel-Stratford then the GE mainline past ilford and Romford (which would be a little further north on the map).
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Old August 13th, 2009, 10:40 AM   #3723
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I m thinking of drawing a brand new map soon complete with zones and maybe national rail lines if I have room ... To have crossrail as straight as possible the other lines will have to reshape like the 2016 map that went around
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Old August 13th, 2009, 12:18 PM   #3724
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I think Primrose Hill could probably go on the map if we're running Queen's Park - Stratford services...
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Old August 14th, 2009, 03:44 PM   #3725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweek View Post
I think Primrose Hill could probably go on the map if we're running Queen's Park - Stratford services...
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&so...05476&t=h&z=15

might be possible ?
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Old August 15th, 2009, 11:09 AM   #3726
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More than possible... the platform was demolished fairly recently, but it should be simple enough to rebuild. I remember visiting the station before it closed, it used to be left open all day even though by then the only train was a Watford Jcn - Liverpool St service at about 08:30 which was more often than not cancelled.

If it re-opens it should be called Chalk Farm to advertise its proximity to the Northern Line station.
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Old August 15th, 2009, 03:11 PM   #3727
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New version :

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Old August 20th, 2009, 02:50 PM   #3728
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Have any test's or studies been done about seating arrangements and capacity vs. confort in the LUL tube trains???

I ask this because eveytime I went in rush hour it's very hard to grip a free handle ... and in the middle of the day it's not very confortable to travell in those longitudinal seats.










Seriously .. .a lot of usefull space is lost due to the longitidinal seating:




Heres a layout for comparison (Porto light rail) ... notice the intergangway has a similar layout to most of LUL trains but that is due to the bogies/wheelsets being under the benches.















Hope someone find's this subject worthy of discussion.
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Old August 20th, 2009, 04:30 PM   #3729
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The Tube stock trains are too narrow to comfortably seat 4 across. The Bakerloo and Victoria lines both have sections of latitudinal seating, but unless you’re good friends with your seatmate it’s not very comfortable! The Metropolitan line already has latitudinal seating (2+3 across) for its longer journeys in wider trains – but these are being removed in the new S stock trains.
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Old August 20th, 2009, 04:34 PM   #3730
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Longtiudinal seating allows more standing room which is badly needed.

I hate transverse seating on the tube and others seem to as well because they get filled up less readily.
People are unwilling to squeeze past others or ask them to move over in order to sit down and get up. The result is that seats go unused. Face to face seats also mean bumping knees with the people opposite.
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Old August 20th, 2009, 07:22 PM   #3731
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It's what you're used to I guess... The only genuine criticism I have of any stock in terms of comfort is the C Stock (2nd picture down; Circle, H&C and District Lines)... If these are crush loaded there are not adequate grabrails available if you're standing in the vestibule between the doors: just two rails above head height and too high up for shorter people to reach. People just end up bracing themselves against fellow commuters and fall all over the place if the train brakes or accelerates sharply (which the C Stocks are prone to).

The standard Tube stock arrangement of longitudinal seats facing each other is the best capacity solution. If a train was purely transverse seating, you'd get far fewer standees on during the peak so each train would carry far less passengers. On the other hand if you ripped out all seats to maximise standing room it would be a false economy as the areas of the car occupied by the seats are useless for standing (except for the very short) due to the inward curving car sides.

Therefore, the modern layout of rows of longitudinal seating facing each other and no transverse seating is by far the best solution for Tube stocks.

Surface stocks are dictated by the routes worked: C Stocks have pure longitudinal seating and no transverse (since the refurb) to maximise standing room, as they work shorter, busier, inner London routes. In contrast the Metropolitan A Stocks have pure high-backed transverse 2+3 seating because they work longer distance routes into Buckinghamshire so seating is more important.

This will be swept away when the single S Stock comes in and a compromise layout between the two will be installed.
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Old August 20th, 2009, 09:18 PM   #3732
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The compromise seating for the S Stock baffles me.

Why not have seating similar to the current A Stock on the 8 car S Stocks, and high capacity seating on the 7 car S Stocks? It's not like the 8 car and 7 car trains will be swapping services... And carriages won't be uncoupled and added to other trains, because the fully walkthrough design makes it difficult!

This logic also applies to the "compromise" line branding in the interior as well...
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Old August 21st, 2009, 12:19 AM   #3733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
On the other hand if you ripped out all seats to maximise standing room it would be a false economy as the areas of the car occupied by the seats are useless for standing (except for the very short) due to the inward curving car sides.

Therefore, the modern layout of rows of longitudinal seating facing each other and no transverse seating is by far the best solution for Tube stocks.
I often end up standing by the door on tube journeys, I think you could get a significant amount more in without the seats, and I'm not that short (about 6'2), its not comfortable mind you, but I dont expect to be on the tube in rush hour, but its bareable. Although the longitudinal seating I agree is the best compromise.
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Old August 21st, 2009, 08:39 PM   #3734
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I think it was the red train from the 92 prototype trio that had single, transfer seats either side of a wider isle in the middle section of the car - I think that was a great idea, should have been used on the new 09 stock - short journeys you only need to seat the priorty cases, and that layout maxmises the area of the carrage with useable head height.

Of course the wheels are sticking up into the car under the end sets of seats, so not much you can do unless you go the space train route of smaller wheels.

checked - it was the blue train:

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Old August 22nd, 2009, 12:23 AM   #3735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lasdun View Post
I think it was the red train from the 92 prototype trio that had single, transfer seats either side of a wider isle in the middle section of the car - I think that was a great idea, should have been used on the new 09 stock - short journeys you only need to seat the priorty cases, and that layout maxmises the area of the carrage with useable head height.

Of course the wheels are sticking up into the car under the end sets of seats, so not much you can do unless you go the space train route of smaller wheels.

checked - it was the blue train:

I love the design on those trains!
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Old August 24th, 2009, 02:44 AM   #3736
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Power feeds

Hi tubeman

Does the power for each car come from its nearest motor car or only the powered cab? I'm guessing the former otherwise it would be a single point of failure for the whole train. I guess the lone couple of lights that stay on when all the others occasionally go out as the train goes over points etc have battery backups? Its quite fun when that happens.

James
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Old August 24th, 2009, 05:27 AM   #3737
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Faulty Train at _____?

I have question that has been fermenting in my mind.

Whenever the TFL's live travel news section says "Severe/minor delays are occurring due to a faulty train at ____" , what kinds of things are defined as faulty trains? Is it things like doors not working properly, or is it a case of the train breaks down entirely? In that case, what happens?

TFL provides a brief glossary of terms regarding things like "good service" or "minor delays" or "part suspended" etc, but I thought it might be interesting to learn more specific details as to why trains might be delayed. I've seen things like delays due to "faulty communications equipment" or "staff shortage" or "faulty track" (although I'm sure these are a bit more specific than just "faulty train.")

Cheers,
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Old August 24th, 2009, 10:44 AM   #3738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemcbuller View Post
Hi tubeman

Does the power for each car come from its nearest motor car or only the powered cab? I'm guessing the former otherwise it would be a single point of failure for the whole train. I guess the lone couple of lights that stay on when all the others occasionally go out as the train goes over points etc have battery backups? Its quite fun when that happens.

James
Hi James

There is no continuous 630V wire the length of a train (it was outlawed at the inception of electric traction on the Tube for fear of fire risk), so each motor car supplies its own power via pickup shoes and in addition the adjacent 'trailer' car.

Very simply there are two types of Tube car: Motor and Trailer, each 'unit' will have at least one of each. For example the C Stock's 2-car units are simply one of each permanently coupled together, the D Stock's 3-car units are a Trailer sandwiched between two Motors, and the 1972 MkII's 4 car units are M-T-T-M (coupled to a 3-car unit M-T-M, giving 7 cars in total).

Motor cars have, unsurprisingly, the Traction motors on the bogies... They also have 'Motor Alternators' (MAs), which convert the 630V DC into 50V DC for control circuits and 110V AC for lighting. The MAs give the constant high-pitched whining noise, which can be heard faltering as the train passes over pointwork and rail gaps accompanied by the lights dimming (because the 110V AC supply in interrupted). The lights don't go out altogther because on each car there are some striplights powered off 50V DC supplied by batteries on each motor car. The prime role of the batteries is to ensure the 50V supply for power & control is always available, otherwise every time the 630V supply was interrupted (e.g. crossing pointwork) everything else on the train would go dead.

On Trailer cars you'll find the compressors, which run off 630V supplied from the adjacent Motor car. They keep the air supply charged (for brakes, doors, etc) and they make the whirring / chugging sound which cuts in periodically, often just after a train has come to a halt at a station (because air has been used for braking and door operation). It's especially loud on A Stocks.

You can usually tell the difference between a Motor and a Trailer car as a passenger (on older stocks at least) because on a Trailer you'll hear / feel the compressors but the Traction motors will be relatively quiet whereas on a Motor car the compressors will be quiet and you won't feel their vibration whereas the Traction motors will be loud during acceleration & braking. The clear difference looking from outside (aside from the driving cabs on Driving Motor cars) is that Motor cars have shoebeams and current collection shoes on each bogey whereas Trailer cars do not.

This is also how you'll spot a non-driving motor car (known as an UNDM): they have shoegear but no driving cab... Most middle cars (i.e. 3rd & 4th) on D Stocks and 1973 Stocks are UNDMs, although as I explained previously there are some Driving motor cars in the middle of these two stocks because a proportion of the fleet was built as 'Double ended' 3 car units for the East London Line and Aldwych shuttle.
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Old August 24th, 2009, 11:03 AM   #3739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoritzCH View Post
I have question that has been fermenting in my mind.

Whenever the TFL's live travel news section says "Severe/minor delays are occurring due to a faulty train at ____" , what kinds of things are defined as faulty trains? Is it things like doors not working properly, or is it a case of the train breaks down entirely? In that case, what happens?

TFL provides a brief glossary of terms regarding things like "good service" or "minor delays" or "part suspended" etc, but I thought it might be interesting to learn more specific details as to why trains might be delayed. I've seen things like delays due to "faulty communications equipment" or "staff shortage" or "faulty track" (although I'm sure these are a bit more specific than just "faulty train.")

Cheers,
Hi

Trains are complex machines and therefore all manner of things can go wrong with them ('defects'). Commonest defects would be:

Doors... Generally doors failing to close. This is most commonly something stuck in the door runner stopping a door from closing, or causing a slow-closing ('sticky') door. Quite often a kick from the driver will sort this out, but if it happens repeatedly the train will lose time if the driver has to keep going back so it would be withdrawn from service pretty promptly.

'Pilot light'... In a similar vein, there's a blue light in the driver's cab (called the 'Pilot light', like on a domestic boiler) which is lit when the doors are closed. Movement cannot be achieved if the light isn't lit, and often even though the doors are closed or appear to be it won't light for a number of reasons. If this is the case, the train is unsafe and must be withdrawn from service. This is also why trains often suddenly stop accelerating just as they pull away from platforms (usually when packed) accompanied by a 'pop'; this is because the pilot light has gone out due to people pressing against the doors... The jolt usually ensures the light returns and allows the motors to kick back in.

'No movement'... Quite often a driver will go to motor and nothing happens. This could be due to all manner of things: no traction current, no pilot light, insufficient air pressure, blown fuse / tripped MCB... There's a series of checks they go through to diagnose, it's normally something they can rectify themselves but there's a delay while this happens depending on what the problem is and how competent the driver is.

'Burst'... This is the biggie... Stocks have one or two air supplies; older stocks like the A, C and 1972 have two pipes ('Trainline' and 'Mainline'), the former essentially being the fail-safe brake system and the latter the standard supply for normal braking and door operation. Newer stocks just have 'mainline', the failsafe braking system is governed by an electrical circuit. In either case if there's a rupture in the air supply then the train is crippled until the burst has been isolated, and depending on the burst type or location the train may only be able to be driven from the rear at reduced speed. A bad burst can easily shut a train down for an hour, and therefore an entire line.

Of course all manner of other things can go wrong, but these are the commonest in my experience.

Any time a train is withdrawn from service for even something simple, it's cause a delay because de-training a train, especially if busy, will shut a line down for 5-10 minutes which will have repercussions for hours due to extended headways and late running.
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Old August 24th, 2009, 09:59 PM   #3740
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tubeman ... It's always a pleasure to hear your explanations on Tube related subjects.
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