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Old August 25th, 2009, 05:13 AM   #3741
MoritzCH
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Thank you for that comprehensive and detailed explanation!

I'm pretty interested in tube stock and I had some general questions.

Would it be fair to say that some of the more modern tube stocks have had more problems due to increased complexity? I've read a bit about the 1992 TS and it seems like there have been lots of issues with it. What kind of real genuine improvements have these newer, tube stocks made as opposed to say the older 1972 and 1973 stocks? I can only think of perhaps ergonomic and traffic flow improvements with the externally hung doors?

About the new 2009 TS, do they have any sort of manufacturer plates or anything along those lines? I know all stocks except the 1992 have plates installed just behind each of the doors. Additionally, do they have door-opening bells in addition to the door closing bells? Are they similar to anything else on the network?

As well, the last time I was travelling, I heard a specialized announcement on the Jubilee line. The train was packed as other lines were closed for the weekend, and the train began to slow and grind to a halt, as identifiable through that neat little whine. The driver came on the tannoy and asked passengers politely not to lean against the doors, I suppose not to upset the pilot light you mentioned. Anyway, the question is, are there any regulations as to announcements tube drivers can make? I've also heard a driver provide updates as to what is going on (i.e. points failure in a certain area). Are drivers pretty much free to say whatever they like within reason? Is it encouraged/discouraged or is it solely up to the driver's discretion?

Secondly, a similar question involving those Service Update boards. Do managers/supervisors regularly check the boards? Are there set regulations as to what can go on? On some enthusiast sites, they often have pictures of comical messages on those boards. I was hoping to catch one when I was last in London but I ended up settling on seeing the boards with those magnets telling about the service on each line.

Many Thanks.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 01:28 PM   #3742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoritzCH View Post
Thank you for that comprehensive and detailed explanation!

I'm pretty interested in tube stock and I had some general questions.

Would it be fair to say that some of the more modern tube stocks have had more problems due to increased complexity? I've read a bit about the 1992 TS and it seems like there have been lots of issues with it. What kind of real genuine improvements have these newer, tube stocks made as opposed to say the older 1972 and 1973 stocks? I can only think of perhaps ergonomic and traffic flow improvements with the externally hung doors?
No problem

Yes it is fair comment to a point... When I used to drive 1959 Stocks on the Northern Line there was pretty much no defect that you, as the driver, couldn't rectify yourself short of the wheels falling off. It required a lot of knowledge and a cool head to go through the fault diagnosis / rectification successfully (I still know the trains intimitely 10 years later, it was that ingrained), but you could always get the train moving again.

As rolling stock has become more advanced and complex there's less and less a driver can do if a defect does arise, although hand in hand with the increasing complexity modern stocks have monitoring systems which tell the driver what's gone wrong. With newer stocks if there's a defect which the driver can do nothing about then they have to wait for a Train maintainer to turn up who'll just replace a circuit board or something like that.

Probably the biggest advance in terms of reliability is, as you mention, the doors. The externally hung doors of the 1992 TS onwards function far more reliably than those on older stocks.

Also, the move away from a 'Trainline' air supply to a 'Round train circuit' introduced with the 1973 Stock removed a big risk in terms of potenital defects. The Trainline air supply is as I touched upon the 'failsafe' brake, because the standard EP (Electro-pneumatic) air brake doesn't fail safe (i.e. if it fails, it simply stops working). Trainline air must remain constantly charged above a certain pressure to hold the brakes off, if the Trainline air is lost then the brakes come on. The system is referred to as 'Westinghouse' after its manufacturer, and has been around for decades (pre-WW2 at least).

Two main pieces of equipment are connected to the Trainline pipe: the Tripcock and the Deadman. The Tripcock is the lever on the bogey at each end of the train which is hit backwards if the train passes a red signal (each signal has a 'Trainstop' at its foot which is raised when the signal's red and lowered when it's green), when the train is 'tripped' on a Trainstop Trainline air escapes and the brakes apply.

The 'Deadman' is the device in the driver's control handle which must be constantly held down by the driver... i.e. if the driver dies (or is otherwise incapacitated) the train must stop. So similarly if a driver 'drops the Deadman' Trainline air escapes and the train stops. In either case (getting tripped or dropping the Deadman) there is a very loud sound of air escaping from the front of the train, which you'll also hear at a terminus when an older stock is 'shut down'. You'll also hear a funny farting noise which is the Retarders on the brakes letting off excess brake pressure because a full 'Westinghouse' application floods the brakes with more air pressure than is necessary as a precaution.

In addition to these two safety functions, the Trainline pipe also gives assurance that the train is still in one piece; if there was a 'breakaway', e.g. the units became uncoupled, then the Trainline pipe would be interrupted and both portions of the train would come to a halt.

Finally, the Westinghouse system can be used to make a normal brake application by letting air out of the Trainline pipe in a controlled manner rather than the full-on loss that occurs when the train is tripped or the deadman is dropped. There's a real knack to 'doing a Westinghouse' which means that many drivers are scared to use it. On the lines which still have Westinghouse capable trains (now just A, C and 1972 Stocks), drivers are supposed to make a Westinghouse application at the penultimate station before terminating. This is to test the brake to give assurance the train would actually stop at the terminus. Therefore, you should hear the driver making a Westinghouse application at stations like Lambeth North or Wimbledon Park southbound... If you know what you're listening for then you can tell if it's a Westinghouse rather than a standard EP / Rheostatic application if you're sat behind the driver's cab: the driver will let controlled bursts of Trainline air out, so you'll hear hissing for a few seconds at a time.

It will also be very notable if you're sat in any motor car how quiet the train is compared to normal, because the Rheostatic braking which normally does the bulk of slowing a C or 1972 Stock down isn't working as it's a pure air application... The 'Rheo' is essentially the motors working backwards so makes the familiar 'moaning' noise as the train slows down (A Stocks are so old the pre-date Rheostatic brakes).

Drivers are scared of Westinghouse because it's unresponsive; you don't feel the effect of each burst of air loss for a few seconds so it's sheer judgment, and if you overdo it you can't let the brakes partically off once they've gone on so often drivers either lose their nerve and stop short or misjudge it and over-run. This is why a Westinghouse application often ends up with the driver putting the brakes in Emergency or having to release the brakes fully and pull up to the correct stopping mark.

Anyway, back to the point... The Westinghouse / Trainline system carries a big risk because any burst is designed to cripple the train hence it was done away with as soon as the electrical version was invented, so stocks from 1973 onwards carry less risk of a catastrophic defect like a 'Trainline burst'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoritzCH View Post
About the new 2009 TS, do they have any sort of manufacturer plates or anything along those lines? I know all stocks except the 1992 have plates installed just behind each of the doors. Additionally, do they have door-opening bells in addition to the door closing bells? Are they similar to anything else on the network?
I don't know about step-plates, but I'd expect they do. I also would strongly suspect they have door opening chimes too.

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Originally Posted by MoritzCH View Post
As well, the last time I was travelling, I heard a specialized announcement on the Jubilee line. The train was packed as other lines were closed for the weekend, and the train began to slow and grind to a halt, as identifiable through that neat little whine. The driver came on the tannoy and asked passengers politely not to lean against the doors, I suppose not to upset the pilot light you mentioned. Anyway, the question is, are there any regulations as to announcements tube drivers can make? I've also heard a driver provide updates as to what is going on (i.e. points failure in a certain area). Are drivers pretty much free to say whatever they like within reason? Is it encouraged/discouraged or is it solely up to the driver's discretion?
Drivers should make a Public Address (PA) if held in a tunnel for 30 seconds, and at regular intervals thereafter (every minute). They should also make a scripted PA regarding planned closures at certain stations (usually the station preceding the interchange with a closed line). Beyond that, it's up to them really... Some are famous for making loads of funny PAs, whereas some don't seem to even know how to pick it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoritzCH View Post
Secondly, a similar question involving those Service Update boards. Do managers/supervisors regularly check the boards? Are there set regulations as to what can go on? On some enthusiast sites, they often have pictures of comical messages on those boards. I was hoping to catch one when I was last in London but I ended up settling on seeing the boards with those magnets telling about the service on each line.

Many Thanks.
The rule of thumb is professionalsm I guess; if someone wrote "Jubilee Line suspended due to a signal failure... No change there then!", then they'd get ticked off and it would be rubbed off. They're supposed to be checked hourly (they should always have the time they were last checked / updated written on them).

The magnetic boards are being replaced by Electronic boards, which are always 'live' and don't need updating.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 05:39 PM   #3743
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No problem
The magnetic boards are being replaced by Electronic boards, which are always 'live' and don't need updating.
Could you get me a magnetic one when that happens?
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Old August 25th, 2009, 07:26 PM   #3744
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Could you get me a magnetic one when that happens?
I think you can buy the lines and statuses (statii?) in the LT Museum shop... They make a good fridge decoration!
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Old August 25th, 2009, 10:31 PM   #3745
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So has any driver ever died at the 'wheel' of an Underground train that you know of?

And does holding the lever/button down all the way while driving not knacker your hand/arm out? Do drivers often accidentally let go and trigger the emergency stop?
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Old August 26th, 2009, 06:47 PM   #3746
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So has any driver ever died at the 'wheel' of an Underground train that you know of?
Yes, a Northern Line driver died between Woodside Park and Totteridge & Whetstone quite recently (March '07), he had a massive heart attack. There have no doubt been others, including possibly the Moorgate Tube disaster although whether the driver died before the crash, causing it, or in the crash itself is open to debate.

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And does holding the lever/button down all the way while driving not knacker your hand/arm out?
Not really; there's 2 springs... a stronger one which needs to be overcome to initially latch the controls down, and a weaker one which needs to be constantly overcome after that... So it doesn't take much effort. You're constantly moving the controller backwards and forwards and let go at each station so it's not as bad as having to keep your hand / arm in the same position constantly. Some of the 1959 Stocks I used to drive had quite strong 'weak' springs and you would err on the side of caution and apply a lot of pressure, which would get uncomfortable of you were on that train for a few hours.

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Do drivers often accidentally let go and trigger the emergency stop?
Yes, some controllers have stronger than usual springs which catch you by surprise leading to the controller popping up. It gives you a bit of a jump because of the loud noise and you depress it again within a second or so, so the brakes will only normally slightly apply and be released again pretty promptly.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 02:51 AM   #3747
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Hey Tubeman.

Do the station assistants radios only work within one station or can you talk to people at other stations, if they are close enough? Underground?

James
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Old August 27th, 2009, 03:01 AM   #3748
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Hi Tubeman

In the latest (September) issue of Modern Railways there's an illustration of a concept for the new Bakerloo line stock, called EV01, with short articulated carriages and inter-car gangways. I was wondering if you knew of any more details of this project? There is no mention of it whatsoever on the net at present.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 11:39 AM   #3749
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Hey Tubeman.

Do the station assistants radios only work within one station or can you talk to people at other stations, if they are close enough? Underground?

James
Sort of... The new 'Connect' radio system is universal across LU and also compatible with the Emergency services' system and everyone is issued with the same hand-held radio, you then tune in to a particular 'Talk group' depending on what function / location you're working. Therefore, when working on a station you'd tune into that station's talk group... Or a driver would tune into their Service controllers' talk group. Calls can be made as 'group' or '1 to 1', so within the talk group you can either make a general call to all radios tuned in to that group which will be audible to all or call an individual's personal hand-held 5 digit number and speak in private.

Antennae have been installed such that Connect radios should work universally on LU property, underground or above ground.

It's a good system and far better than what we had to put up with before.
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Old August 27th, 2009, 11:41 AM   #3750
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Hi Tubeman

In the latest (September) issue of Modern Railways there's an illustration of a concept for the new Bakerloo line stock, called EV01, with short articulated carriages and inter-car gangways. I was wondering if you knew of any more details of this project? There is no mention of it whatsoever on the net at present.
Hi

I've heard nothing about this. It sounds very much like the proposed 'Space train' that was mooted for the Victoria Line 2009 Stock, it's probably just a concept proposed by one of the companies going for the contract. If I hear anything I'll post it here.
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Old September 2nd, 2009, 07:10 PM   #3751
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Hi Tubeman. I have a question for you: How many 1973-stock cars(motors & trailers) hade advertisement for United Airlines?
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Old September 2nd, 2009, 11:03 PM   #3752
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Hi Tubeman. I have a question for you: How many 1973-stock cars(motors & trailers) hade advertisement for United Airlines?
One train of 6 cars (i.e. 4 x motors and 2 x trailers), to my recollection... I'm sure there was only one. I loved it, it looked very smart

[IMG]http://i27.************/9lfvnr.jpg[/IMG]
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Old September 2nd, 2009, 11:04 PM   #3753
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On reflection, it looked a bit shit... But compared to the unrefurbished 1973 stocks it was running amongst at the time, it looked smart
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Old September 3rd, 2009, 04:17 AM   #3754
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The compromise seating for the S Stock baffles me.

Why not have seating similar to the current A Stock on the 8 car S Stocks, and high capacity seating on the 7 car S Stocks? It's not like the 8 car and 7 car trains will be swapping services... And carriages won't be uncoupled and added to other trains, because the fully walkthrough design makes it difficult!

This logic also applies to the "compromise" line branding in the interior as well...
I've just found out from the latest Modern Railways that the S7s for the Circle/District/H&C will have all longitudinal seating and the S8s for the Metropolitan will be a mix of transverse and longitudinal.

Regarding line branding, it appears that there will no line branding on all lines from now on. Which I think is a shame.
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Old September 3rd, 2009, 11:44 AM   #3755
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This maybe a hard question Tubeman, but do you know the area (kmē or that imperial stuff if you like ;O) of the underground zones? i.e. the area that zone 1&2 covers.
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Old September 3rd, 2009, 04:50 PM   #3756
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One train of 6 cars (i.e. 4 x motors and 2 x trailers), to my recollection... I'm sure there was only one. I loved it, it looked very smart

[IMG]http://i27.************/9lfvnr.jpg[/IMG]

Im not arguing aginst you but from what i can tell(and i know a little about the LU stock designs) that looks like 4 trailers and 2 motors.
But then again you might know better.

Last edited by London Underground; September 3rd, 2009 at 05:00 PM.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 03:55 PM   #3757
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Im not arguing aginst you but from what i can tell(and i know a little about the LU stock designs) that looks like 4 trailers and 2 motors.
But then again you might know better.
The explanation is on the previous page

You're evidently assuming only cars with driving cabs are motor cars?

Motor cars can either be driving (with a driver's cab) or non-driving (with just motors)... Referred to as DM and UNDM for short. Trailer cars are defined by having no traction motors, and are most easily identified by checking the bogeys: current collection shoes = motor car... No current collection shoes = trailer car.

Most 1973 and D Stocks are formed thus: DM-T-UNDM-UNDM-T-DM

However a proportion are formed thus: DM-T-DM-UNDM-T-DM / DM-T-UNDM-DM-T-DM

The latter two combinations are because some of the 3-car units are 'double ended' because both stocks were designed to work routes operated by 3-car trains (East London Line and Aldwych Shuttle). These are easily identified because you'll see a driving cab in the middle of the train.
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Old September 7th, 2009, 10:03 PM   #3758
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Oh i see... When i think about it i have never actualy looked at the boggies.
At any car type. Well that explains it.
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Old September 8th, 2009, 08:29 PM   #3759
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Tubeman, in your opinion what are the pros/ cons of the Tube compared to the NY subway?
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Old September 8th, 2009, 10:16 PM   #3760
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Tubeman, in your opinion what are the pros/ cons of the Tube compared to the NY subway?
Pros:

Loads more visible staff
Brighter / cleaner / more welcoming environment
Far better branding
Some great station architecture

Cons:

Not 24h
Generally no express / local distinction
Much hotter in Summer
Smaller cars on Tube lines

I think the Subway is more functional while the Tube provides a friendlier and more iconic experience
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