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Old September 8th, 2009, 11:12 PM   #3761
alonzo-ny
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What do you think in terms of service? I recently visited London and have lived in NY. Im convinced that in London the trains are way more frequent. In NY even in rush hour if I just missed a train I would wait what seemed like an eternity on another train. On my trip to London I dont remember waiting more than two minutes at any time of the day.
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Old September 9th, 2009, 12:20 AM   #3762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alonzo-ny View Post
What do you think in terms of service? I recently visited London and have lived in NY. Im convinced that in London the trains are way more frequent. In NY even in rush hour if I just missed a train I would wait what seemed like an eternity on another train. On my trip to London I dont remember waiting more than two minutes at any time of the day.
Yes, London trains are generally more frequent than New York ones; on most of the lines anyway.
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Old September 9th, 2009, 03:39 AM   #3763
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I've not been to many cities but London beats all the ones I have been to. I remember that at 5pm as soon as one train left, another entered. I was very impressed! 5pm in Sydney, Perth and Adelaide and you would need to wait 15-20 minutes! Then again, there is a greater population to serve...
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Old September 9th, 2009, 05:17 PM   #3764
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Well here in stockholm on the station T-centralen during rush hour one train is barley out of the platform before anotherone enters it. Allthough they are on diferent lines. First time i saw that i thought they were gooing to collide!
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Old September 9th, 2009, 05:32 PM   #3765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Pros:

Loads more visible staff
Brighter / cleaner / more welcoming environment
Far better branding
Some great station architecture

Cons:

Not 24h
Generally no express / local distinction
Much hotter in Summer
Smaller cars on Tube lines

I think the Subway is more functional while the Tube provides a friendlier and more iconic experience
I'd have thought the tube is easier to navigate as a visitor too.
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Old September 9th, 2009, 05:55 PM   #3766
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Quote:
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I've not been to many cities but London beats all the ones I have been to. I remember that at 5pm as soon as one train left, another entered.
It's quite common in rush hours in many other cities: packed trains and many people waiting on the platforms usually make the operation to get in and out the convoys to last longer, over all on interchanges; the train could remain in the station even a coupple of minutes, so when it leaves the following one reaches in few seconds... apparently frequency seems to be 10 seconds, but actually it is 2/3 minutes
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Old September 9th, 2009, 09:12 PM   #3767
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Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
I'd have thought the tube is easier to navigate as a visitor too.
Yes I think it's definitely more user-friendly all round: the staff availability, the signage, the lighting, general station and train ambience. Another thing is that many Subway stations are arranged simply with separate entrances for each direction on opposite sides of the road... Logical as the tracks are just below the road surface, but can be a bit confusing nevertheless if you're not overly familiar.

Another thing that occurs is the way on Manhattan Island the lines are almost all north-south, making journeys from east to west or vice versa across the island largely impossible. This is presumably because it's alot longer north to south than it is east to west and the road system is a simple grid by and large, but a couple of diagonal or latitudinal lines, especially in Upper Manhattan, would make it more accessible.
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Old September 9th, 2009, 09:14 PM   #3768
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What do you think in terms of service? I recently visited London and have lived in NY. Im convinced that in London the trains are way more frequent. In NY even in rush hour if I just missed a train I would wait what seemed like an eternity on another train. On my trip to London I dont remember waiting more than two minutes at any time of the day.
True, you shouldn't have to wait any more than 3 minutes at any LU platform in Central London throughout much of the day.
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Old September 13th, 2009, 12:45 AM   #3769
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From videos it seems that tube lines are rather noisy inside the trains similar to the NY subway? Which lines are quieter and have the quietest rolling stock -- most pleasant to ride? It seems Jubilee line is decent, is this correct?
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Old September 13th, 2009, 08:24 PM   #3770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidaiow View Post
I've not been to many cities but London beats all the ones I have been to. I remember that at 5pm as soon as one train left, another entered. I was very impressed! 5pm in Sydney, Perth and Adelaide and you would need to wait 15-20 minutes! Then again, there is a greater population to serve...
Hardly a fair comparison I am afraid. The tube as you would well know is a high frequency metro system.

The cities you mentioned all have full sized heavy railway systems but not a metro. London have these too, these are the mainline and overground system and guess what? The frequency on most of those lines is about every 15 minutes or so peak hour, some maybe a little more, but not much.

So compare apples with apples.
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Old September 13th, 2009, 08:30 PM   #3771
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From videos it seems that tube lines are rather noisy inside the trains similar to the NY subway? Which lines are quieter and have the quietest rolling stock -- most pleasant to ride? It seems Jubilee line is decent, is this correct?

All the deep level tube lines are noisy and I reckon the Jubilee on the extension is one of the noisiest followed by the whole Victoria line. Once the trains are of the the tunnels they are not too bad.

The only reasonably quiet underground trains are the sub surface lines, ie circle, district and metropolitan that is owing the the larger size of the tunnels and I gather better noise insulation in the trains owing to their larger size.
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Old September 13th, 2009, 08:32 PM   #3772
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But then one could argue that even though he was comparing apples with oranges the fact is that London has both apples and oranges but Sydney only has oranges. I've made a crude point I know and the geography of these cities are quite different from each other and that most Australian cities probably don't need 'apples', though I do think Sydney with its size and density perhaps could do with a simple turn-up-and-go system.

Last edited by NCT; September 13th, 2009 at 08:32 PM. Reason: typo
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Old September 13th, 2009, 08:51 PM   #3773
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Quote:
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From videos it seems that tube lines are rather noisy inside the trains similar to the NY subway? Which lines are quieter and have the quietest rolling stock -- most pleasant to ride? It seems Jubilee line is decent, is this correct?
I'll have to disagree with ajw373 and agree with you... I think the Jubilee Extension is the quietest Tube section, and certainly the smoothest considering the speeds travelled at.

Victoria Line is the noisiest, a combination of high speeds and rail corrugation which forms due to the high speeds and low humidity in the tunnels (no overground section so no rainwater gets brought in). This leads to the high-pitched droning / moaning sound on the line.

The Bakerloo is suffereing badly from wheel screech currently, which is the ear-splitting shrieking negotiating tight bends. The Central Line 1992 stock also seems to be generally quite noisy negotiating bends.

All in all, the Tube is pretty bloody noisy... especially in the Summer when the windows in the communicating doors are open.
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Old September 13th, 2009, 10:15 PM   #3774
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Its pretty sad that they can't do anything about the noise; Is it necessary to ware ear protection if you ride every day?

Is the older section of the Jubilee line much noisier than the new?

How come they can't add more sound insulation to the new stock tube trains?

Why can't they install continuously welded rail down there?

How does the noise compare to other subways such as NY, Paris, etc?

All in all, these old systems could be upgraded to modern standards (similar to new systems). If the political will was there the funds would be too-- ridership would be much higher due to a more comfortable commute which would reduce traffic on the roads. I think old systems should be upgraded to make sure the noise is at a safe level for commuters.

Last edited by aquablue; September 13th, 2009 at 10:21 PM.
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Old September 13th, 2009, 10:46 PM   #3775
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Its pretty sad that they can't do anything about the noise; Is it necessary to ware ear protection if you ride every day?

Is the older section of the Jubilee line much noisier than the new?

How come they can't add more sound insulation to the new stock tube trains?

Why can't they install continuously welded rail down there?

How does the noise compare to other subways such as NY, Paris, etc?

All in all, these old systems could be upgraded to modern standards (similar to new systems). If the political will was there the funds would be too-- ridership would be much higher due to a more comfortable commute which would reduce traffic on the roads. I think old systems should be upgraded to make sure the noise is at a safe level for commuters.
Ear defenders are necessary for Victoria Line staff but not others: the noise levels extrapolated across an entire working day do breach the 'Minimum action level' for ear protection. However, unless you're a customer travelling on the Victoria Line for 8 hours a day, you're fine! The standard commute on the line is way below the minimum action level.

Continuously welded rail is going in, but even then the 'Insulated block joints' (upon which the signalling depends) have to remain and generate a lot of the clattering noise. Sound insulation is only practical if the cars can be sealed, and in the absence of Air con they cannot... And allowing ventilation of course lets noise in.

By virtue of being (generally) metal wheels on metal track running on metal tunnel rings barely larger than the train, the deep-level Tubes are bound to be as noisy as it gets... exacerbated by many twists & turns on the older Tubes. Paris and New York are all generally double-track tunnel (or quadruple), which like London's subsurface lines instantly are quieter simply because there's more space for the sound to spread into, Add to this the fact that many of Paris' lines are rubber-tyred, both systems are much quieter than the older London tubes.

Any measures to address this would be hugely expensive but wouldn't help the Tube run any better... Just more pleasant.
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Old September 13th, 2009, 10:50 PM   #3776
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Continuous welded rails are just noisy in a different way. Less clackety-clack and more screamy-screach.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 01:14 AM   #3777
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NY though is known to extremely noisy and I've been on it several times. There are several scary studies that came out about the noise levels and how you need to wear ear protection. I can't believe the tube is really that much louder given the screetching in the NY stations which is appalling. If so, wouldn't you also have to wear the protection in London if its actually louder than NY?

For NY, perhaps in the trains it might be quieter due to air con and bigger tunnels like you say, but i don't know!

Paris is reputed to be quieter, but I've checked out various paris rubber tired lines (Mp 89 line 1) you tube videos -- they didn't seem that much quieter than London's, but then again its difficult to tell from yt.

Really, they should just re-bore a couple of the most used tube tunnels to allow bigger trains and better acoustically shielded tunnels. I know the country is in a recession and crossrail is similar to what I'm talking about, but still I think its important. However, If crossrail progresses to 3 or 4 lines crossing the capital, perhaps it won't be necessary.

I know its probably a ridiculous statement and most people will think I'm mad, but I think that in 50-100 years when cities in China/Asia etc have amazing comfortable systems and have much more comfortable transportation, cities like NY, London etc.. will be sorry they didn't take the plunge in attempting to invest the money required to really make a difference in ride comfort now.

Shanghai/HK/Beijing/Tokyo/Dubai/Seoul, etc... all are much quieter. If the subways in these cities are pleasant to ride, it will bring more people underground and off the road --> a good incentive to reducing airborne pollution. The West needs to get their metros into a state where people actually want to ride them first, instead of their cars.

Last edited by aquablue; September 14th, 2009 at 01:26 AM.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 01:24 AM   #3778
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Old September 14th, 2009, 01:25 AM   #3779
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Continuous welded rails are just noisy in a different way. Less clackety-clack and more screamy-screach.
I doubt it...how come systems in Asia (new) which use it dont exhibit this issue?
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Old September 14th, 2009, 08:44 AM   #3780
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But then one could argue that even though he was comparing apples with oranges the fact is that London has both apples and oranges but Sydney only has oranges. I've made a crude point I know and the geography of these cities are quite different from each other and that most Australian cities probably don't need 'apples', though I do think Sydney with its size and density perhaps could do with a simple turn-up-and-go system.
Which is exactly what they are planning in Sydney.

I still standby what I said you cannot compare frequencies on the London Underground and the City Rail Network in Sydney (or the other cities he mentioned). They are nothing alike so any comparison is meaningless. I mean to say Sydney's trains are generally 8 car double deckers so of course you don't need a frequency of 3 minutes like a lot of tube lines run at.

If the comparison was between the overground or main line suburban trains then fair enough.
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