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Old September 14th, 2009, 03:06 PM   #3781
rheintram
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Last week i had the chance to take the DLR for the first time. Now I have some questions about it and hopefully tubeman or someone else can answer them for me:

* Why is the DLR promoted as a system distinct from the rest of the Underground system? Of course I know about the technical differences, but then the tube isn't homogenous either and the DLR does very much feel like a tubeline, e.g. at the Bank station. Is it so the black business suits don't have to ride among the common people in the tube and have their own special thing?

* Why is the DLR called automated if there is staff on every single train and often even controls it? Is the automation system unreliable?

* When I used it, there were constantly jams. Up to three trains were waiting in front of stations to go in. Does this happen frequently?

* Why are there so many stations? Especially around Canary Wharf there were something like three stations within a distance of maybe 150 meters. What's the point of that? Does every new office building out there get its own station?

Thanks in advance
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Old September 14th, 2009, 06:58 PM   #3782
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In response to AJW to my post- I think I said that I know I haven't been to many cities. And I am aware that they are light rail, but for a modern city (Australia's biggest?) I was surprised by the infrequency and the time it took for trains to load and unload. Then again, the CBD is much smaller than London, though I do think a few new stations could be introduced perhaps? (1 line to KingsX is also a bit silly I thought!)

I did love the double decker though :P
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Old September 14th, 2009, 08:12 PM   #3783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidaiow View Post
In response to AJW to my post- I think I said that I know I haven't been to many cities. And I am aware that they are light rail, but for a modern city (Australia's biggest?) I was surprised by the infrequency and the time it took for trains to load and unload. Then again, the CBD is much smaller than London, though I do think a few new stations could be introduced perhaps? (1 line to KingsX is also a bit silly I thought!)

I did love the double decker though :P
It isn't the city size that matters but the market it is serving. In Sydney for example the trains are for the mid to outer suburbs, just like the main-line trains here in London. The mainline trains here are no different to Sydney for example, except of course most Sydney trains run through the CBD but here in London, save for one line the terminate in the stations scattered around the outskirts of the cities of London and Westminster.

The tube has two facets. They central part clearly serves the inner city, in Sydney and Melbourne for example these roles are played by buses and trams respectively. The tube is unusual for a metro style system in that it then extends into the outer suburbs, mainly on the northern side of the river (yes extending to west and east). On the outer stretches the frequency drops somewhat but still better than most mainline lines.

But the main thing is you cannot compare disparate systems especially on issues of frequency and this is regardless of how many cities you have visited or lived in.
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Old September 14th, 2009, 08:27 PM   #3784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
Last week i had the chance to take the DLR for the first time. Now I have some questions about it and hopefully tubeman or someone else can answer them for me:

* Why is the DLR promoted as a system distinct from the rest of the Underground system? Of course I know about the technical differences, but then the tube isn't homogenous either and the DLR does very much feel like a tubeline, e.g. at the Bank station. Is it so the black business suits don't have to ride among the common people in the tube and have their own special thing?
Quite simply because it never has been a part of London Underground Ltd: it was entirely independent at its inception and has only fairly recently been brought under the TFL banner. Lines on LU as diverse as the Metropolitan Line running though rural Buckinghamshire versus the Victoria Line running entirely through deep-level Tubes are a part of London Underground, hence the unified livery and branding.

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Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
* Why is the DLR called automated if there is staff on every single train and often even controls it? Is the automation system unreliable?
It was originally, but I thought it was pretty reliable these days. This and your next point sound like to caught it on a bad day. The trains always have been staffed and always were intended to be, but the Train captains are supposed to be walking up and down checking tickets rather than driving.

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Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
* When I used it, there were constantly jams. Up to three trains were waiting in front of stations to go in. Does this happen frequently?
As I said, it sounds like you caught it on a bad day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
* Why are there so many stations? Especially around Canary Wharf there were something like three stations within a distance of maybe 150 meters. What's the point of that? Does every new office building out there get its own station?

Thanks in advance
Originally when the DLR was opened in 1987 the West India Docks were three huge rectangular expanses of water crossing from one side of the Isle of Dogs to the other, enclosing 2 narrow fingers of land in between them. The DLR crossed the three docks and so had to have a station on each finger of land and on either side of the dock formation otherwise especially the 'fingers' (Canary Wharf anf Heron Quays) would be completely isolated.

It turns out as the Canary Wharf estate has grown, much of the docks have been filled in such that you can walk from Canary Wharf to Heron Quays on dry land... Now admittedly there are three stations in very quick succession.

West India Docks 1987


Last edited by Tubeman; September 14th, 2009 at 08:40 PM.
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Old September 15th, 2009, 02:48 AM   #3785
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I doubt it...how come systems in Asia (new) which use it dont exhibit this issue?
They do. From many videos i've seen.
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Old September 15th, 2009, 09:57 PM   #3786
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Hey tubeman.
I just looked atwikipedia and saw that two 1935-stock cars were in 1966 converted to test units. What did they do with them and how did they look?
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Old September 15th, 2009, 10:55 PM   #3787
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Hey tubeman.
I just looked atwikipedia and saw that two 1935-stock cars were in 1966 converted to test units. What did they do with them and how did they look?
They became our weedkilling train:

image hosted on flickr


And Tunnel cleaning train:

image hosted on flickr


Still in Ruislip Depot I think? I think they might have been decommissioned.

Unbelievably 1938 Stocks are still in passenger service today, operating the Isle of Wight Railway:

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Despite its twee 'toytown' appearence, it is a standard section of Network Rail... The trains are officially British Rail Class 483 and are the oldest Multiple units in regular passenger service in the UK (71 years).
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Old September 16th, 2009, 12:47 AM   #3788
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I like how the weedkilling train is surrounded by weeds and the tunnel cleaning train is filthy in the open air

Last edited by Acemcbuller; September 17th, 2009 at 01:22 AM.
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Old September 16th, 2009, 05:29 PM   #3789
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@Tubeman: Ok i see. Nice pictures too.

@Acemcbuller: LoL!
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Old September 17th, 2009, 11:54 AM   #3790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
Quite simply because it never has been a part of London Underground Ltd: it was entirely independent at its inception and has only fairly recently been brought under the TFL banner. Lines on LU as diverse as the Metropolitan Line running though rural Buckinghamshire versus the Victoria Line running entirely through deep-level Tubes are a part of London Underground, hence the unified livery and branding.



It was originally, but I thought it was pretty reliable these days. This and your next point sound like to caught it on a bad day. The trains always have been staffed and always were intended to be, but the Train captains are supposed to be walking up and down checking tickets rather than driving.



As I said, it sounds like you caught it on a bad day.



Originally when the DLR was opened in 1987 the West India Docks were three huge rectangular expanses of water crossing from one side of the Isle of Dogs to the other, enclosing 2 narrow fingers of land in between them. The DLR crossed the three docks and so had to have a station on each finger of land and on either side of the dock formation otherwise especially the 'fingers' (Canary Wharf anf Heron Quays) would be completely isolated.

It turns out as the Canary Wharf estate has grown, much of the docks have been filled in such that you can walk from Canary Wharf to Heron Quays on dry land... Now admittedly there are three stations in very quick succession.

West India Docks 1987

Love this picture Tubeman. Do you know where I can see more like it?

Cheers,

PS, Your book is a very interesting read thanks. Bought the second edition recently.
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Old September 17th, 2009, 02:18 PM   #3791
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Love this picture Tubeman. Do you know where I can see more like it?

Cheers,

PS, Your book is a very interesting read thanks. Bought the second edition recently.
There's an aerial photo I remember seeing online from 1987 of the DLR crossing the then completely barren and windswept West India Docks which I wanted to better illustrate my point, but I couldn't locate it again. There are a few 'vintage' photos of the DLR when it first opened out there online, but I'm not aware of any specific resource.

Re: the book, thanks!
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Old September 17th, 2009, 03:25 PM   #3792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
They became our weedkilling train:

image hosted on flickr


And Tunnel cleaning train:

image hosted on flickr


Still in Ruislip Depot I think? I think they might have been decommissioned.

Unbelievably 1938 Stocks are still in passenger service today, operating the Isle of Wight Railway:

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


Despite its twee 'toytown' appearence, it is a standard section of Network Rail... The trains are officially British Rail Class 483 and are the oldest Multiple units in regular passenger service in the UK (71 years).
Oh.. F###ing gorgeous
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Old September 18th, 2009, 12:56 AM   #3793
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Oh.. F###ing gorgeous
The Isle Of Wight Railway's red '38s are ruined by the necessity to have a yellow warning panel on the cabs (plus the shade of red is wrong).

The London Transport Museum still has a working 4-car '38 stock which runs special trains every now and then... Most recent was last month as a commemoration of the Jubilee Line's 30th birthday. Here it is on a Metropolitan Line outing:



Without doubt the finest Tube stock ever, beautiful!
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Old September 22nd, 2009, 01:28 AM   #3794
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I actually live on the Isle of Wight, and I love the trains for their history, but love them more for the rough ride they give. :P

There isn't much investment on the network, nor the carriages, to be honest. It is a shame but hey.
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Old September 22nd, 2009, 10:36 PM   #3795
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I actually live on the Isle of Wight, and I love the trains for their history, but love them more for the rough ride they give. :P

There isn't much investment on the network, nor the carriages, to be honest. It is a shame but hey.
It seems such a shame that the line was cut back to Shanklin and doesn't run to Ventnor... Well it's such a shame in general that the system was decimated... But at least if the current service ran to Ventnor it would connect some of the largest towns and provide a north-south route. I'd also like to see Cowes to Sandown via Newport re-opened, at least then there'd be something approaching a 'system' linking the main population centres rather than the current Ryde-Shanklin stub.

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Old September 22nd, 2009, 10:37 PM   #3796
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Bloody hell what is it with the giant pictures from Wikimedia?!
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 09:07 AM   #3797
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See when I lived in Perth for a couple of months, I loved thier transperth Services, and I really got into the idea of designing a 'metro' sort of thing for the Island. I have a few maps in different styles but they will never come to pass- too many old people and not enough young equating to even smaller ammounts of cash

I would love to have travelled to Ventnor by Steam- I reckon it would have been stunning!
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 11:51 AM   #3798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubeman View Post
There's an aerial photo I remember seeing online from 1987 of the DLR crossing the then completely barren and windswept West India Docks which I wanted to better illustrate my point, but I couldn't locate it again. There are a few 'vintage' photos of the DLR when it first opened out there online, but I'm not aware of any specific resource.

Re: the book, thanks!
Hi again, just thought I'd follow up on this. Found an interesting video for those familiar with Canary Wharf as it is now and how it looked in 1987 from the DLR...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6zkPz3_dIc
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Old September 23rd, 2009, 09:02 PM   #3799
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Hi again, just thought I'd follow up on this. Found an interesting video for those familiar with Canary Wharf as it is now and how it looked in 1987 from the DLR...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6zkPz3_dIc
Good find... Its amazing how 'old' it looks on what appears to be an old cine camera!

I remember my first journey on the DLR must have been around 1990 or 1991 when One Canada Square was under construction... It was maybe 3/4 toward being topped out and the steel cladding was about 1/2 way up, and it was all bright blue because the protective film hadn't been peeled off the steel yet. It looked really weird: red steel beams and bright blue cladding.

I wish I'd have taken some photos now; the change from then to now is mind-boggling. Just the 10 years 1992-2002 represents an enormous transformation.
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Old September 25th, 2009, 10:18 PM   #3800
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Will this happen ... ? http://www.southwarknews.co.uk/00,news,16000,185,00.htm
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