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Old March 2nd, 2010, 10:22 PM   #3961
Tubeman
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Sorry I haven't answered your question yet, my broadband is playing up and I've barely been online... I've already lost responses twice.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 11:52 PM   #3962
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This is an excellent thread

I have a question. London Underground is said to be 400 km long. How's this length measured ? Do you simply add the length of all the 11 lines to come up with this figure or the common sections of the lines (for example common section of circle line with other lines) are counted only once instead of twice/thrice ?

Thanks.
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Old March 6th, 2010, 10:37 AM   #3963
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Originally Posted by Abhishek901 View Post
This is an excellent thread

I have a question. London Underground is said to be 400 km long. How's this length measured ? Do you simply add the length of all the 11 lines to come up with this figure or the common sections of the lines (for example common section of circle line with other lines) are counted only once instead of twice/thrice ?

Thanks.
I believe that's route length, so common sections of line are not counted twice / thrice, nor are 4-track fast / slow sections like on the Metropolitan Line.

Not too sure about parallel lines like the District / Picc Barons Court to Acton Town or Met / Jub Finchley Road to Wembley Park though, or if Network Rail owned sections of the Bakerloo and District are counted.

I just added total route lengths of all lines together and got about 450km, so that's 50km of shared route I guess?
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Old March 6th, 2010, 11:07 AM   #3964
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I just added total route lengths of all lines together and got about 450km, so that's 50km of shared route I guess?
Yeah, then 50 km could be the shared length and 400 km the track length.
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Old March 8th, 2010, 07:15 PM   #3965
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Thank you Tubeman, and all, for considerable and valuable information. I just joined. And just bought your book. I have been a "student" of the London Underground for many ( many ) years. Now I am developing a computer simulation of all London urban and suburban railways, using Bahn 3.85 software. Modeling the lines and routes and stations and trackwork is the easy part. The hard part is modeling the timetables and actually making the timetables work.

My question is this --- Can you tell us ( even approximately ) the peak tph on each of the London Underground lines and DLR? This would be a big help to me. Thank you.
While I am finding timetables challenging to simulate realistically, hence the question above, now that I have your wonderful book I am finding I need to go back to the trackwork and fix a few things that I missed. I had visited London in the late 80's and bought every rail atlas and map I could find at Ian Allen's Bookshop, but your book adds even more valuable information ( and more work ) for my computer simulation.

By the way, I might very well have followed the same path as you had we stayed in England. I was born and lived in Upminster, but we emigrated when I was 9 years old. Probably would not have gone to university in GB. But in the USA I was able to go to university ( degree in electrical engineering, graduate degrees in theoretical physics and management ) and had a wonderful non-railway career. Of course they don't really have railways here, and that is what I really miss about GB and Europe. Despite my "successes" I still envy you. And what a great, very professionally done book.
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Old March 8th, 2010, 08:39 PM   #3966
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Many thanks, too kind!

Do you still need the tph? I found it much harder to locate the information than I'd have expected, I tried using the 'timetables' section of the TfL website, but after first & last trains that just switches to vague 'every 2-4 minutes' for most lines, so that's anywhere between 15 and 30 tph.

What I do know for definite:

Bakerloo 22tph peak

All 4 main District line services run every 8 minutes off-peak (Wimbledon-Edgware Rd, Wimbledon-Upminster, Richmond-Upminster, Ealing Broadway-Tower Hill), the Kensington Olympia - High Street Kensington shuttle is every 15 minutes.

Circle Line was every 8 minutes, but the 'Extended Circle' is now only every 10 minutes

And now for the guesswork...

I'd guess the H&C Line would be about every 6 or so minutes

The Amersham service of the Metropolitan Line is 3-4 tph, I guess Watford and Uxbridge is 6-8 tph

The other 'Tube' lines would all offer approx 25tph through central London I'd expect

This is hopefully useful re: DLR
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Old March 8th, 2010, 09:18 PM   #3967
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Actually, the data you just provided is very helpful, and probably all I need for now. Even the approximations are helpful, as I can use them in my simulation to get a little bit closer to realistic. On the denser routes I have real challenges getting a timetable to work because of the somewhat variable time per platform stop. Sometimes trains arrive at the terminus earlier or later than scheduled and I have to accomodate both possibilities. More a challenge on the more frequent Underground lines than the way I simulate timetables on the above ground suburban and regional lines.

Besides, now that I have your book it will be weeks before I will finish all the corrections to my trackwork and then I will have to make adjustments in all the impacted timetables. This is so much fun. And nice to be retired so I can do this. Thanks! Very!
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Old March 10th, 2010, 02:23 AM   #3968
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I've read alot of stuff on the Underground over the years, and if memory serves me correctly:

Peak time frequency:

Bakerloo: 22tph
Central: 30tph
Jubilee: 24tph (set to increase to 30-33tph in next few years)
Northern (Central + North London branches): 20tph (Morden branch): 30tph
Piccadilly: 24tph
Victoria: 28.5tph (set to increase to 33tph in next few years)
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Old March 10th, 2010, 02:37 AM   #3969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
I've read alot of stuff on the Underground over the years, and if memory serves me correctly:

Peak time frequency:

Bakerloo: 22tph
Central: 30tph
Jubilee: 24tph (set to increase to 30-33tph in next few years)
Northern (Central + North London branches): 20tph (Morden branch): 30tph
Piccadilly: 24tph
Victoria: 28.5tph (set to increase to 33tph in next few years)
Thank you. That is very helpful information ...

r, peter
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Old March 16th, 2010, 11:46 AM   #3970
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Hello, I have a quick question if you don't mind.

I love the JLE but when the tube travels between Westminster and Bond Street there is this awful roar. I can barely hear myself think never mind my neighbour or the automatic announcements. Any particular reason for this and will it ever be 'fixed' ?

Thanks for all your information
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Old March 16th, 2010, 09:33 PM   #3971
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Funny. I always noticed that the 'new' stretch of the original Jubilee Line (1979) is noisy... It seemed even worse when the 1983 Stock trains ran on it.

Must be courtesy of whatever the construction method was in favour in the 1970's I guess... It could be courtesy of the fact the tunnels are larger diameter than older Tubes; more space for the soundwaves to echo around in... That would make sense as it seems worse the further back you're sitting. I use the Jube quite a lot between Baker Street and Westminster and sit at the front of the front carriage and it's not so bad, because, crudely speaking, you're leaving the noise behind you. It's surprisingly quiet in the cab compared to even the first carriage, for instance.
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Old March 16th, 2010, 10:21 PM   #3972
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That's interesting to note. I do that journey regularly and I find the noise is worse on the way to Baker St rather than to Westminster. It's most peculiar. I did wonder whether it was to do with tunnel size, guess it was, thanks!
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Old March 17th, 2010, 01:40 PM   #3973
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Tubey - I take the H&C/Circle every day to Hammersmith and whilst the frequency is much better post-T Cup, almost every day there is a 2-5 minute delay outside Hammersmith as the trains are backed up and waiting for a free platform.

I completely understand this, but why isn't the dispatch/turning around being run more successfully? Are there plans to look at this, as it is obviously a problem. Given there are three platforms, it shouldn't be too awful.

What are your thoughts on this, if you can be candid?
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Old March 18th, 2010, 12:45 AM   #3974
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Tubey - I take the H&C/Circle every day to Hammersmith and whilst the frequency is much better post-T Cup, almost every day there is a 2-5 minute delay outside Hammersmith as the trains are backed up and waiting for a free platform.

I completely understand this, but why isn't the dispatch/turning around being run more successfully? Are there plans to look at this, as it is obviously a problem. Given there are three platforms, it shouldn't be too awful.

What are your thoughts on this, if you can be candid?
There clearly hasn't been sufficient time allowed for terminating at Hammersmith, as the blocking back into that station is a common complaint now. It would no doubt work on paper (i.e. the timetable), but this doesn't account for driver behaviours... Drivers are allowed 4 minutes minimum between bringing a train in to a platform and departing again, and I suspect that due to the increased tph reversing at Hammersmith, a dwell time near to that minimum was timetabled which doesn't account for making a cup of tea, going for a pee, or chatting to your mate etc. The H&C / Circle drivers have a bit of a 'reputation', which is one of the reasons why the T-cup was proposed in the first place... 'Stepping back' at Edgware Road for terminating Circles with management presence on the platform is supposed to ensure crew reliefs are snappy and punctual, whereas before delays at Edgware Road waiting for a driver to saunter down the platform at snail pace were one of the causes of perpetual late running on the Circle. The only thing I can suggest is 'stepping back' being employed at Hammersmith too, but this would require management presence on the platform there also which is a poor use of an expensive resource.

The principle of 'stepping back' is that rather than the same driver driving a train into and out of a terminus, each driver gets off upon arrival and 'steps back' a couple of trains, giving a decent interval for tea / pee / chat, thus removing the risk of late departures. It needs management though, because if the service runs late and trains end up out of sequence then you get driverless trains. This was a real headache at Elephant & Castle where we 'step back' due to 2 platforms, because often the 2/3 of trains ex-Queen's park would be on time, while the remaining third ex-Harrow or Stonebridge could run very late if there were operating problems on Network rail, so if a driver was due to step back off an ex-Harrow train onto an ex-Queen's Park train, their next pick-up could be sat in the platform at Elephant while the driver was still stuck north of Queen's Park driving their previous train. You need a manager to 'reform' the driverless train (change its number) into a train there was a driver for... but then keep track of each 'reform' to prevent two trains having the same number for too long.

Personally, I would ditch the Hammersmith & City / Circle distinction and run the service as a single Hammersmith - lap of Circle - Barking (and vice versa) service with maybe 10tph. This would necessitate more Metropolitan Line trains terminating at Baker Street, maybe 10tph beyond Baker Street to Aldgate, giving 30tph Baker Street - Liverpool Street. To boost the Hammersmith service and appease Westfield I'd have a bay platform at Paddington Suburban and run a Hammersmith - Paddington shuttle in the peak.
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Old March 26th, 2010, 02:59 AM   #3975
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What are they doing between Southfields and East Putney? Building new sidings or replacing a bridge (over Granville road)?
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Old March 27th, 2010, 06:38 AM   #3976
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Why are we spending so much money on refurbishing stations that aren't particularly in bad shape when the money could be spent on refurbishing the signalling and track which, in a lot of cases, are!
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Old March 27th, 2010, 12:46 PM   #3977
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What are they doing between Southfields and East Putney? Building new sidings or replacing a bridge (over Granville road)?
Definitely not the former so I guess the latter... I've not seen the works, so I don't know
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Old March 27th, 2010, 12:47 PM   #3978
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Why are we spending so much money on refurbishing stations that aren't particularly in bad shape when the money could be spent on refurbishing the signalling and track which, in a lot of cases, are!
Many of the station upgrades have been shelved in order to preserve funds for track / signalling upgrades, so I don't really follow your point.
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Old March 27th, 2010, 05:05 PM   #3979
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Hi Tubeman

I noticed, visiting London a couple of weeks ago, that both Farringdon and Blackfriars were closed. In both cases, the train slows as it approaches the station, then speeds up again the other side. Why is this? Is it to maintain the timetable by continuing to build in the delay, or is it a safety procedure for the workers in the station?
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Old March 27th, 2010, 06:47 PM   #3980
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Hi Tubeman

I noticed, visiting London a couple of weeks ago, that both Farringdon and Blackfriars were closed. In both cases, the train slows as it approaches the station, then speeds up again the other side. Why is this? Is it to maintain the timetable by continuing to build in the delay, or is it a safety procedure for the workers in the station?
I can't remember if I've answered this before... may have done!

Simplistically the reason is to prevent a potential crash.

Each signal has an 'overlap' beyond it which is basically the distance that a train travelling at line speed would take to stop if the signal was red and the 'trainstop' at its base 'tripped' the train (i.e. caused the emergency brakes to apply).

To maximise signal density and therefore line capacity, the 'station starter' signal on LU has a very short 'overlap'... This is because every train should stop at every station, and therefore should be travelling at a very low speed when it passes the 'station starter', because it's accelerating from stationary. Low speed = short stopping distance, therefore the signalling can be arranged such that the rear of the train ahead could be quite close to the station behind it due to the short overlap of the 'station starter' behind.

This means that if trains were allowed to pass through closed stations at line speed, safety would be compromised because if they failed to slow down for and stop at the 'station starter' if it were red due to a train ahead, it could potentially crash into that train ahead. This is because the train which had failed to stop would be travelling much faster and the distance required to come to a halt after being 'tripped' would exceed the short overlap.

The rule is therefore that trains must slow to 5mph to pass the station starter. A lot of drivers choose to crawl through the entire platform, but this isn't necessary... They can approach the platform and brake as normal, just shut off and coast past the station starter at 5mph rather than stopping.

Network Rail doesn't have the same rules and all signals have an overlap long enough to accommodate trains braking to a halt from full line speed. This means on the NwR sections served by LU, drivers are 'allowed' to go through closed stations at full pelt (or when running empty). I used to enjoy bombing through Wimbledon Park and Southfields at full speed when running empty from Wimbledon to stable at Parson's Green late at night... It felt really 'naughty'
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