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Old January 12th, 2006, 11:08 AM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam35
Mainly property rights. In the early 20th Century, lines wer built under streets as they were publicly owned and this avoided having to buy rights off property-owners. This was stuck to even with very deep lines, like the Piccadilly. If the streets got narrow or twisty overhead, the tubes got stacked. That explains both the stacking and the twistiness of the Picc around South Ken.


Saved me typing it

Other examples of 'stacked' platforms are Notting Hill Gate and Chancery Lane (Central) and Tufnell Park, Kentish Town and Camden Town (Northern), although the last example may be more to do with the junction south of the station (separating the northbound and southbound onto different levels).
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Old January 12th, 2006, 11:23 PM   #382
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What is the longest and shortest distance respectively between two stations on the Tube? And how long/short is it?
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Old January 13th, 2006, 01:05 AM   #383
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Shortest must be Rotherhite/Surray Quays. If that's more than two/three hundred yards I'd be surprised.. you can prefectly see the other platform if you're at either. I expect longest to be somewhere on the far end of the network.. I'm almost guessing Metropolitan line or at least another segment that was previously mainline.. High Barnet is pretty far from Totteridge as well though..
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Old January 13th, 2006, 01:15 AM   #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yako
What is the longest and shortest distance respectively between two stations on the Tube? And how long/short is it?
The shortest is debateable, it depends how you define it

Platform to Platform = Leicester Square to Covent Garden (260m)

Entrance to entrance = Charing Cross / Embankment (? the length of Villiers Street)

The longest is Chalfont & Latimer to Chesham, 6.26km
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Old January 13th, 2006, 10:08 PM   #385
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I had my money on Leicester Square/Covent Garden. Seems like I was partly right. Seems almost as if Charing Cross/Embankment are too close to each other to deserve stops for both Northern and Bakerloo lines. Wouldn't it be better to just have one stop for either line, connected (via escalators, conveyor belts etc.) to both Circle/District lines at Embankment and Charing Cross mainline station/Trafalgar square. I don't know the exact track layout of the site though, maybe (as your answer suggested) the platforms are spaced enough to allow greater separation of entrances with minimal (tunnel) walking distance compared to what my suggestion would impose. Just got back from London on tuesday and now tubeish questions galore! =)

@Capzilla; I don't suppose you mean Wapping or Canada Water to Rotherhithe. Being able to see consecutive stations through the tunnel is not uncommon on relatively straight sections of underground. It often seems closer than it actually is.

Last edited by yako; January 13th, 2006 at 10:13 PM.
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Old January 14th, 2006, 12:33 AM   #386
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Waterloo to Southwark seems really short too!
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Old January 14th, 2006, 05:05 PM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yako
I had my money on Leicester Square/Covent Garden. Seems like I was partly right. Seems almost as if Charing Cross/Embankment are too close to each other to deserve stops for both Northern and Bakerloo lines. Wouldn't it be better to just have one stop for either line, connected (via escalators, conveyor belts etc.) to both Circle/District lines at Embankment and Charing Cross mainline station/Trafalgar square. I don't know the exact track layout of the site though, maybe (as your answer suggested) the platforms are spaced enough to allow greater separation of entrances with minimal (tunnel) walking distance compared to what my suggestion would impose. Just got back from London on tuesday and now tubeish questions galore! =)

@Capzilla; I don't suppose you mean Wapping or Canada Water to Rotherhithe. Being able to see consecutive stations through the tunnel is not uncommon on relatively straight sections of underground. It often seems closer than it actually is.
When Chalres Yerkes planned his three Tube lines (Piccadilly, Bakerloo and Northern Line Charing X Branch) it was usual for stops to be very close together, for instance between South Kensington and Green park there used to be 4 stops instead of 2 (Brompton Road and Down Street having since closed). Remember the overall lines were much shorter than today (e.g. the Piccadilly was only Hammersmith to Finsbury Park) so having extra stops in central London didn't really matter so much.

Regarding Charing Cross / Embankment, now that the Jubilee Line has been diverted south I suppose there could be a case for closing the 'Charing Cross' platforms in favour of Embankment, but Charing Cross is bang on Trafalgar Square and under the booking hall for the Mainline station, so is very conveniently located. Villiers Street is quite a steep hill too.
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Old January 14th, 2006, 05:29 PM   #388
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I was riding the DLR today, and was noticing the DLR "driver" over fifteen minutes, playing Sudoku, texting on his phone, and what looked like betting on sports. Do they get paid as much as tube drivers? The DLR is automatic, and all they do is open and close the doors. What's the point of the drivers anyway (besides making customers feel "confident" and checking tickets)?

And Joe, I just bought your book! Can't wait!

Last edited by samsonyuen; January 14th, 2006 at 05:36 PM.
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Old January 14th, 2006, 06:19 PM   #389
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they sometimes drive the train manually in case of an emergency dont they?
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Old January 14th, 2006, 06:26 PM   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
I was riding the DLR today, and was noticing the DLR "driver" over fifteen minutes, playing Sudoku, texting on his phone, and what looked like betting on sports. Do they get paid as much as tube drivers? The DLR is automatic, and all they do is open and close the doors. What's the point of the drivers anyway (besides making customers feel "confident" and checking tickets)?

And Joe, I just bought your book! Can't wait!
Thanks for the purchase, fella

I think the DLR 'Train Captains' are on about £25k. They are essentially performing the now defunct 'Guard' role of the Tube, but when the ATO fails (loses the code) they do have to go up front and manually drive the trains. This is why they remain staffed really, although even if the ATO never failed it is better to have a human operating the doors in case someone gets clothing trapped in the doors and gets dragged along the platform.

I believe lines with totally unstaffed trains have 'plungers' on the platforms which stop a departing (or arriving) train, but relying on Customers to think quickly enough to operate it is a bit much. Its espceially useless if you're being dragged down the platform and can't reach it!

The Victoria Line also has these plungers, as the trains were originally intended to be driverless, but they serve more as a temptation for schoolchildren today.
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Old January 14th, 2006, 07:34 PM   #391
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What did the Guard do? Just open and close the door?
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Old January 14th, 2006, 08:12 PM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
What did the Guard do? Just open and close the door?
Yes. Here's the Guard on the last ever trip of a 'Guarded' train in 2000 (Northern Line 1959 Stock)



You were stood at the first set of doors of the last carriage and raised the bar you can see to ward off the public. Behind the Guard you can see the door control buttons. You'd simply open then close the doors, wait for the 'Pilot' Light (i.e. all doors closed) then give the Driver 'The Bell'.

Here's the Guard in position:



A view of the Guard's position uncluttered by hundreds of trainspotters!



The 'Guard's Panel':



The Gauge is 'Trainline Air' (would take too long to explain!)

Top left is the 'Loudaphone' with which you attempted to communicate with the driver

To the right of the '2', top to bottom, The Pilot Light (not on), Guard door open, Guard door close

To the left of the '2' are Saloon heating on / off and rear door cut-out / cut-in

Across the bottom, on the left is the signal 'The Bell', then two 'open' buttons either side of the 'close'

The idea was to use two hands to open the doors, preventing accidental opening between stations, but we all used two fingers of one hand (tut tut). That's also why the 'Signal' button has a collar around it, so you wouldn't hit it by accident.

Bottom left you can just about make out the tip-up seat we pulled down

Checking the platform is clear prior to closing the doors (this is the 'vintage livery' 1959 stock which I Guarded on and drove several times) :



All photos from Squarewheels, a site dedicated to the last days of the 1959 Stock (and therefore Guards)

I have very fond memories of being a Guard, I'm very proud to have been one of the last.
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Old January 14th, 2006, 09:10 PM   #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
....
And Joe, I just bought your book! Can't wait!
what book?? did Tubeman write a book about london sybway?
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Old January 14th, 2006, 10:31 PM   #394
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Strange.

Yes, Tubeman's new book is called London Railway Atlas. Look two pages back (or so).
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Old January 15th, 2006, 03:44 AM   #395
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@Tubeman: correct, I did mean Canada Water for Rotherhite. I guess plenty of stations are close if one would ask me, I'm a bit of a walker - especially since Queensway closed as I still can't be arsed to take the Circle line to Bayswater, I'd rather walk there from Marble Arch when I'm on the Central.
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Old January 15th, 2006, 01:51 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz
what book?? did Tubeman write a book about london sybway?
Look back to Page 17

Not so much written as drawn though...
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Old January 15th, 2006, 02:04 PM   #397
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What? I thought it was a book of sonnets and poetry!
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Old January 15th, 2006, 03:13 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonyuen
What? I thought it was a book of sonnets and poetry!
I suppose you'll be wanting your money back then?
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Old January 16th, 2006, 02:21 AM   #399
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Tubey,

Is the London Underground privatised? If it is, who runs it. I recently heard about plans to privatise each line separately, is this still going to happen and, if so, what consequences would this have for the network?
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Old January 16th, 2006, 05:36 AM   #400
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Quote:
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Tubey,

Is the London Underground privatised? If it is, who runs it. I recently heard about plans to privatise each line separately, is this still going to happen and, if so, what consequences would this have for the network?
Its a bit complex. Fundamentally the entire network is Public sector, but the infrastructure (track & trains) are being leased out on long-term PPP contracts to Private enterprise. The 'logic' behind this is that the Private enterprises have the capital available to fund improvements, so it doesn't come from fare revenue or the public purse. Its short-sighted though, because the private concerns are guaranteed x% return when the PPP contract is up after 30 years, and at this point enormous amounts of money will need to be found from somewhere to make sure the shareholders of Balfour Beatty (etc) keep their pockets lined.

All operational staff (i.e. Drivers, Station Assistants, managers etc) are public sector, but many of the other roles (Train Maintainers, Emergency Response Unit etc) have transferred to PPP consortia (Tubelines and Metronet). Other former London Transport concerns like cleaning and catering were contracted out years ago.

We own all of the assets apart from the trains on some lines (Northern I think), which are I believe owned and maintained by their builder, GEC Alsthom.
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