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Old May 19th, 2010, 12:01 AM   #4081
GavinC
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Hi tubeman. While waiting for a Wimbledon train at Notting Hill Gate this evening, the indicator board showed a 'South Kensington' train would be due after mine, which even the guy on the platform announcing services thought was odd. What reason would there be for terminating a train originating from Edware Road at South Kensington (assuming the board wasn't showing this in error)?
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Old May 19th, 2010, 12:56 AM   #4082
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Hi tubeman. While waiting for a Wimbledon train at Notting Hill Gate this evening, the indicator board showed a 'South Kensington' train would be due after mine, which even the guy on the platform announcing services thought was odd. What reason would there be for terminating a train originating from Edware Road at South Kensington (assuming the board wasn't showing this in error)?
I suspect it was an erroneous 'TD' (Train Description)... There is an emergency crossover at South Kensington so it is technically possible, but it is only used out of absolute necessity (e.g. if there was a person under a train or signal failure ahead), I can't see it being used in the traffic day with a good service because it delays both directions of traffic while the train detrains at South Kensington eastbound, shunts toward Sloane Square, changes ends, then crosses over to the westbound.

All emergency crossovers do see occasional timetabled trains (e.g. one per week), but these are at the extremes of the traffic day and their purpose is to keep the facilities in working order (so called 'rusty rail' moves).

I can't see any reason why a train would need to use the crossover if there were no other operating problems; if a Circle needed to be reversed Inner rail (anticlockwise) to Outer rail (clockwise), then Mansion House bay platform would be used, or even Triangle sidings (the sidings beyond High Street Kensington), both with much less impact on the service.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 06:25 PM   #4083
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I don`t know where else to write this, here goes.

If London`s going to be bringing back doubledeckers -- Routemasters, no? -- how did it skirt the Euro requirement that bus entrances be gated (instead of the unmistakable open platform)?

Also, if the Mini Cooper (or whatever its real name might be) was so successful at being redesigned, surely the same could be done to the iconic RM design, no? The proposed renderings lodged at the top of the New London Routemasters Unveiled thread reveal crummy-looking models. Lookswise, RM was a real improvement over its predecessors (RT, etc.); me, I'd bank on redoing it right.

Thanking you in advance.

Last edited by trainrover; May 19th, 2010 at 06:35 PM.
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Old May 19th, 2010, 08:50 PM   #4084
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As far as I'm aware they're just standard double deckers with a slight nod to RM design (some curves incorporated into the design)... It's all PR rubbish.

A traditional RM with its open stage would not be allowed to be designed today, although fortunately the H&S and wheelchair access nazis haven't prevented a few RMs from remaining on 2 London routes (9 & 13 I think).
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Old May 20th, 2010, 02:45 AM   #4085
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The RMs are on separately contracted 'heritage' short workings on the 9 (Royal Albert Hall-Aldwych) and 15 (Trafalgar Square-Tower Hill), about every 15 mins. Been on them myself a couple of times, though they were pretty empty.

This new bus and the bendy withdrawals must be costing them a hell of a lot, when you consider the custom design and the substantial increases in peak vehicle requirement on routes that have gone to double deck from bendy.
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Old May 20th, 2010, 08:22 AM   #4086
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The RMs are on separately contracted 'heritage' short workings on the 9 (Royal Albert Hall-Aldwych) and 15 (Trafalgar Square-Tower Hill), about every 15 mins. Been on them myself a couple of times, though they were pretty empty.

This new bus and the bendy withdrawals must be costing them a hell of a lot, when you consider the custom design and the substantial increases in peak vehicle requirement on routes that have gone to double deck from bendy.
Especially when you consider that TfL have only committed to buying 5 of the new Borismasters!
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Old May 20th, 2010, 09:16 PM   #4087
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The RMs are on separately contracted 'heritage' short workings on the 9 (Royal Albert Hall-Aldwych) and 15 (Trafalgar Square-Tower Hill), about every 15 mins. Been on them myself a couple of times, though they were pretty empty.
It seems that they are not only used on "heritage" routes: 3 weeks ago I've seen one of them at Regent Park, on the Jubilee Line "Rail replacement service".
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Old May 21st, 2010, 12:11 AM   #4088
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It seems that they are not only used on "heritage" routes: 3 weeks ago I've seen one of them at Regent Park, on the Jubilee Line "Rail replacement service".
There's tons out there for private hire, very common fixture at weddings to get guests from the ceremony to the reception (I had 2 myself, but rather than being ripped off the the tune of £1,500 per bus, I have two friends who own and drive RMs).

I'd be surprised if they ended up on rail replacement bus services, but I think when the bus hire companies run short of stock, they get 'freelancers' like my friends in, and they end up with any old sorts of bus.
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Old May 21st, 2010, 07:44 AM   #4089
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This is the bus thread you want, 20 pages going back couple of years.
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...560384&page=20

Ive heard that the rear platform will be closed when their on faster, less busy stretches and opened when their in the busy inner city, perhaps their getting round it that way somehow.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 01:41 AM   #4090
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I've used the Piccadilly Line a few times recently, and every time it passes through the tunnel from Knightsbridge to South Kensington, the train starts to make this incredibly loud(and I have to say, painful) squeaking/scraping noise. Is there any reason for this? I've never heard it happen anywhere else.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 03:03 AM   #4091
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It's negotiating a tight corner. It happens for example between St Paul's and Liverpool Street on the Central line where there are several tight curves. I'm surprised you didn't work this out yourself, as you can clearly see if you look down the carriage to the end carriage windows, you can even feel the lurch as you first start the turn...
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Old June 14th, 2010, 04:18 PM   #4092
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Hi Tubeman

On national rail today I saw lots of small signs on the trackside. They showed four squares:
Red White
White Red
(or maybe the other way around I can't remember)
What do they indicate?

James
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Old June 14th, 2010, 09:31 PM   #4093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
It's negotiating a tight corner. It happens for example between St Paul's and Liverpool Street on the Central line where there are several tight curves. I'm surprised you didn't work this out yourself, as you can clearly see if you look down the carriage to the end carriage windows, you can even feel the lurch as you first start the turn...
I noticed the curves, and figured they had something to do with it, but it still seemed strange. I travel on the Central line, including the section you mentioned, more than any other part of the Tube, and never noticed any noise as long and intense as what I heard near South Kensington.

I guess I was just hoping for an answer more interesting than "the train was turning".
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Old June 14th, 2010, 10:13 PM   #4094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acemcbuller View Post
Hi Tubeman

On national rail today I saw lots of small signs on the trackside. They showed four squares:
Red White
White Red
(or maybe the other way around I can't remember)
What do they indicate?

James
'Limited Clearance'



You'll see them either side of overbridges, tunnels, bridge abutments etc... They're there to tell someone patrolling the track on foot that the structure they have reached cannot be walked through safely while a train passes.

If it's a short stretch, the procedure is to work out the 'sighting time' (i.e. how long it takes from a train becoming visible in the distance and it reaching you), and then estimating the walking time to the other side of the tunnel, bridge, etc. If you have more sighting time than walking time, then you go for it and hope you were right. Otherwise you flag down the next train and get a lift.

I've done plenty of track patrols on foot during traffic hours on the above ground sections of the District Line. Most hairy was being halfway across the bridge crossing the Thames between Gunnersbury and Kew and having a class 313 bearing down on me at 45mph. There is ample clearance, but it's still pretty unsettling all the same!
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Old June 14th, 2010, 10:23 PM   #4095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoc89 View Post
I noticed the curves, and figured they had something to do with it, but it still seemed strange. I travel on the Central line, including the section you mentioned, more than any other part of the Tube, and never noticed any noise as long and intense as what I heard near South Kensington.

I guess I was just hoping for an answer more interesting than "the train was turning".
It varies from train to train, some units do suffer much worse from 'wheel screech' than others. Factors such as speed and grease levels on the rails also play a part.

I've drawn the precise route of the Piccadilly Line between South Kensington and Knightsbridge below, the double S-bend between South Kensington and former Brompton Road station is pretty crazy:

[IMG]http://i48.************/vooetv.jpg[/IMG]
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Old June 14th, 2010, 11:02 PM   #4096
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Quote:
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'Limited Clearance'
I thought it might be something like that. I noticed they were on walls close to the track. Thanks for the explanation.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 05:20 PM   #4097
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Thanks for the map! Yeah, the curves approaching SK seem pretty crazy, I guess that explains the screeching around there.

A few more questions:

-I know it's impossible to run sub-surface or main line stock on the deep-level Tube lines, as they wouldn't fit on the tunnels, but is it technically possible to run deep-level trains on sub-surface Underground lines? I'm assuming that they're much smaller than the maximum that would fit into sub-surface tunnels, and that they have the same electrification system, but their might be details I haven't considered.

-Do you have any idea(or estimate) of how many new Victoria Line trains have been introduced so far, and how many trains(both new and old) there are on the line?

-This is more of a general railway/electricity question(although still relevant to the Tube), but why do most third-rail electrical systems use DC voltage, as opposed to AC and all the advantages that brings?
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Old June 17th, 2010, 07:29 PM   #4098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoc89 View Post
Thanks for the map! Yeah, the curves approaching SK seem pretty crazy, I guess that explains the screeching around there.

A few more questions:

-I know it's impossible to run sub-surface or main line stock on the deep-level Tube lines, as they wouldn't fit on the tunnels, but is it technically possible to run deep-level trains on sub-surface Underground lines? I'm assuming that they're much smaller than the maximum that would fit into sub-surface tunnels, and that they have the same electrification system, but their might be details I haven't considered.

-Do you have any idea(or estimate) of how many new Victoria Line trains have been introduced so far, and how many trains(both new and old) there are on the line?

-This is more of a general railway/electricity question(although still relevant to the Tube), but why do most third-rail electrical systems use DC voltage, as opposed to AC and all the advantages that brings?
I was under the impression that the Metropolitan and the Piccadilly shared tracks to Uxbridge (yes I know that isn't actually underground). I might be wrong...

There are several examples of where main-line railways have been converted to tube use such as the Northern line to High Barnet and Mill Hill East; the Central to Epping, Hainault etc. On these lines, the littler tube stock pulls up to platforms that are often higher than the trains, so you step down slightly into the train.
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Old June 17th, 2010, 09:39 PM   #4099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoc89 View Post
Thanks for the map! Yeah, the curves approaching SK seem pretty crazy, I guess that explains the screeching around there.

A few more questions:

-I know it's impossible to run sub-surface or main line stock on the deep-level Tube lines, as they wouldn't fit on the tunnels, but is it technically possible to run deep-level trains on sub-surface Underground lines? I'm assuming that they're much smaller than the maximum that would fit into sub-surface tunnels, and that they have the same electrification system, but their might be details I haven't considered.
No real reason why not, the gauge and electrification are the same... There is a significant difference in floor height though so it's not desirable. There's plenty of platforms served by both surface and tube stocks... Although you'd expect them to generally be a compromise height halfway between the two, for some reason Ealing Common is pretty much at Tube stock height, making it a huge step up / down to District Line trains:

image hosted on flickr


Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoc89 View Post
-Do you have any idea(or estimate) of how many new Victoria Line trains have been introduced so far, and how many trains(both new and old) there are on the line?
I think there's 8 2009 Stock trains in operation now. The total fleet is 43 trains currently, but I think this will be more like 50 when the 2009 stock delivery is complete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoc89 View Post
-This is more of a general railway/electricity question(although still relevant to the Tube), but why do most third-rail electrical systems use DC voltage, as opposed to AC and all the advantages that brings?
It might just be historical really... simple Traction motors need DC current, so I guess when technology was in its infancy and lines first started being electrified, DC was opted for. Generally the first overhead electrifications were also DC (1,500V), only being converted to 25,000V AC in the second half of the 20th century when rectifiers (converting AC to DC) or later AC motors began to be used.

3rd / 4th rail is only suitable for lower speeds due to the 'shoes' which collect the power, at higher speeds they'd just get knocked off or cause too much friction, but it's much cheaper to install and maintain than OHLE.

I guess DC motors are cheaper and simpler, so at low speeds (i.e. metros) DC motors and 3rd / 4th rail is more cost effective.
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Old June 18th, 2010, 01:43 AM   #4100
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Quote:
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Do you have any idea(or estimate) of how many new Victoria Line trains have been introduced so far, and how many trains(both new and old) there are on the line?

Underground News June 2010 edition said train 7 was being delivered making six trains commissioned for service. Train 2 to return to Derby soon. (I think train 1 already has)

As an aside I was detrained from a 2010 stock train this week because of a fault.I was also one that had a problem with its doors.
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