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Old January 17th, 2011, 07:20 AM   #4341
Wilhem275
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
...I do hasten to add I am not a rail professional though .
I think I will get over it Thank you
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Old January 18th, 2011, 01:03 AM   #4342
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Well, if Waterloo has good enough tube connections, then todays passengers to Charing Cross could just as well use the excellent tube links from Waterloo?
But why?

People in South and South East London often have a choice of at least two sometimes three terminals in Central London. Either Victoria/ Charring Cross, for the West End and Cannon Street/Blackfriars/London Bridge for the City. A large percentage of people on these routes complete their journey on foot as the stations are very convenient to where they want to go. Forcing them transfer to a tube does not seem to be a good idea.

Meanwhile Waterloo customers will still get off at Waterloo to catch a tube to the West End or the city there is no point to trundle along a train to London Bridge to then either walk or try and fit a seriously overcrowded Northern Line, when the Waterloo and citys trains are empty waiting on the platform.
It would be extremely difficult to connect Waterloo trains to Charring Cross

It's a lot of expense for little benefit

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Through trains serves atleast two purposes. One is that passengers from both sides will get more usable central stations, thus balancing the load on the stations. Another is that the stations don't have to be that large. A through station can handle far more trains per hour and platform than a termini station
The Problem is that they are all on the same side of Central London, all the commuter want to go North or East. Paris is not as unbalanced as London their "South Bank" is much more developed than London's.

Instead of empty trains turning round at Waterloo they would just run empty to out of London further out.

Yes it would release platform space at Waterloo, it would not make any difference to the other Stations, plus the tracks into Waterloo and London Bridge are full.




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An interesting question is why Canon Street isn't linked to Moorgate. I know that such link would not be as good as for example Waterloo - Liverpool Street or Waterloo - Euston, but it would also probably be far cheaper to build as it's shorter...
The tunnel for Cannon street would have start far outside London Bridge as their no space near to town. I'm not sure about Moorgate but I'm sure their is a tube line blocking it.

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Yes, and that's part of the reason why I think a "south of the Thames RER" would be good, the capcity demand is probably distributed rather equaly on such a line.
)
(I assume high quality signal system also, making "metro" frequency of 20-30 TPH possible
I don't think the demand would be, it's primary fault it does not go where people want to go.



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In some places the do it the oppisite way, run all long distance services through the central area, and let some of the less important suburban services terminate somewher in the central area. For example look at Berlin where some suburban/regional trains end at Lichtenberg and some at Ostbahnhof, but all long distance trains run through the central area.

I have no idea if this is good or bad. I assume it's a question of track capacity and where the depots are.
I'm sure.

Last edited by Rational Plan; January 20th, 2011 at 10:16 PM.
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Old January 18th, 2011, 01:24 PM   #4343
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An island platform would indeed be the correct term for No. 1, and I think for No. 2, the junction itself would be described as 'grade separated', and the individual track that's not on the surface would either be a flyover or a dive-under. Hope I've been of some help, I do hasten to add I am not a rail professional though .
Yes, 1 = Island platform, 2 = Grade separated junction or 'Flying' junction

I tend to use 'Flying' junction myself, less clumsy term but it seems less in favour these days
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Old January 18th, 2011, 02:39 PM   #4344
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I like "Flying junction" Thanks again
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Old January 20th, 2011, 04:35 PM   #4345
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My main concern with linking Waterloo and Charing Cross line is that you increase the complexity of the network, potentially linking cascade delays from the SouthEastern region to the SWT region. I don't think benefits outweigh the negatives.
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Old January 28th, 2011, 01:27 PM   #4346
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Tubeman, your thread's gone a bit quiet. Here's a question which I don't think has been asked here before (though I think I've asked it elsewhere online, so ignore me if it was here):

What's the likelyhood of the Canonbury curve from the NLL/ELL to Finsbury Park being converted for passenger use? I understand that it was planned to be part of the curretn extension, but there were 'operational difficulties'. FP would be a useful alternative terminus, and a catalyst for London Overground augmenting or taking over suburban services on the Main Line and Northern City Line. It pisses me off that the NCL has no late evening or weekend services.

A
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Old January 31st, 2011, 12:32 AM   #4347
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Tubeman, your thread's gone a bit quiet. Here's a question which I don't think has been asked here before (though I think I've asked it elsewhere online, so ignore me if it was here):

What's the likelyhood of the Canonbury curve from the NLL/ELL to Finsbury Park being converted for passenger use? I understand that it was planned to be part of the curretn extension, but there were 'operational difficulties'. FP would be a useful alternative terminus, and a catalyst for London Overground augmenting or taking over suburban services on the Main Line and Northern City Line. It pisses me off that the NCL has no late evening or weekend services.

A
It was passenger use until 1976, for suburban diesel services ex-GNR lines to work into Broad Street, but these were all diverted to King's Cross or Moorgate via the GNCR upon electrification... and of course Broad Street subsequently withered and died completely in the 1980's.

The main issue is the fact that when the curve was electrified with OHLE, it had to be singled because there wasn't enough clearance through the Canonbury Tunnel to allow OHLE above double track. It's a common problem when electrifying through tunnels (usually the track has to be lowered), but as this was by now a freight-only route, it was deemed acceptable to single and electrify rather than lower double track.

I guess it could be re-doubled and the OHLE removed in favour of 3rd rail, as certainly very little freight haulage actually appears to be electric, but if this is only in order to reach Finsbury Park I guess it may not be worth the effort as reversing there would be a headache and the soon to open LOROL route to Highbury & Islington will provide decent interchange opportunity.

At one point a long time ago, the ELL was projected to re-open the 'Northern heights' route through Finsbury Park, Stroud Green, Crouch End, and on to Highgate and Muswell Hill, which I think would be very useful, but unbelievably there was an outcry from users of 'Parkland Walk' (the former trackbed) who didn't want to lose the public right of way. This would certainly have justified re-doubling the Canonbury Curve, but sadly I can't see it happening.
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Old January 31st, 2011, 05:33 PM   #4348
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It was passenger use until 1976, for suburban diesel services ex-GNR lines to work into Broad Street, but these were all diverted to King's Cross or Moorgate via the GNCR upon electrification... and of course Broad Street subsequently withered and died completely in the 1980's.

The main issue is the fact that when the curve was electrified with OHLE, it had to be singled because there wasn't enough clearance through the Canonbury Tunnel to allow OHLE above double track. It's a common problem when electrifying through tunnels (usually the track has to be lowered), but as this was by now a freight-only route, it was deemed acceptable to single and electrify rather than lower double track.

I guess it could be re-doubled and the OHLE removed in favour of 3rd rail, as certainly very little freight haulage actually appears to be electric, but if this is only in order to reach Finsbury Park I guess it may not be worth the effort as reversing there would be a headache and the soon to open LOROL route to Highbury & Islington will provide decent interchange opportunity.
You'd probably need a rather high number of TPH to justify doubling a short stretch of an otherwise double track route. If it for example takes 2 minutes to run through that curve, one delay train can only cause at most 2 minutes delay to another train if the number of TPH is low enough to allow for a quick restoration of a good service.

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At one point a long time ago, the ELL was projected to re-open the 'Northern heights' route through Finsbury Park, Stroud Green, Crouch End, and on to Highgate and Muswell Hill, which I think would be very useful, but unbelievably there was an outcry from users of 'Parkland Walk' (the former trackbed) who didn't want to lose the public right of way. This would certainly have justified re-doubling the Canonbury Curve, but sadly I can't see it happening.
Interesteing to hear! Do you remember/know approximately when this outcry happened? Perhaps the public opinion may have changed today.

Would it be a good idea to build this line today, perhaps together with rebuilding Mill Hill East to Edgware and doubling Finchley Central - Mill Hill East and possibly the type of 3rd and 4th rail arrangemant that makes it possible to run both underground and NR trains from Finchley Central to Edgware road?
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Old January 31st, 2011, 08:15 PM   #4349
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It was when the East London Line extension was on the drawing board in the 1990's... The outcry wasn't the sole reason, of course... There would be a bit of engineering (reinstatement of the flyover north of Finsbury Park, re-doubling the Canonbury Curve, and of course re-laying the route to Muswell Hill and rebuilding platforms) and also the headache of trains running ex-ELL crossing the North London Line somewhere between Dalston Western Junction and Canonbury West Junction to access the Canonbury Curve... conflicting train movements, basically.

Perhaps this latter issue could be solved by running the ex-Muswell Hill trains to Stratford?

So basically...

Muswell Hill - Stratford
Richmond - Stratford
ELL destinations - Highbury & Islington (and hopefully beyond)

...No conflicting train movements then...
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Old February 1st, 2011, 04:26 PM   #4350
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It's been discussed on StroudGreen.org and the response was not positive. People love their Parkland Walk, that's for sure.
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Old February 1st, 2011, 05:11 PM   #4351
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They're mad. Have they any idea how much re-opening Stroud Green station would increase their property prices?
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Old February 1st, 2011, 10:40 PM   #4352
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A large minority of Stroud Green's houses back onto the old line, so it might be a trade-off. We must also consider the bizarre, abhorrent thought that some people might prioritise the environment and use of a pleasant footpath over mass transit. Mad I know.
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Old February 2nd, 2011, 01:29 AM   #4353
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Would the flyover north of Finsbury Park really be necessary?

If the images on Google Maps are correct, it seems like a service between Canonbury Curve and Highgate through Finsbury Park could use the tracks in the western side of Finsbury park and then atmost have crossing paths with freight trains using the tracks in the western side of the station. Perhaps the platform that looks disused would need to be refurbished.

How many trains per hour is there today between Canonbury and Dalston, and what would it be with an addition of the Northern Heights?

I assume the TPH is lower than on the flat junctions on the central parts of the SSR network, therefore it would probably work with flat junctions here too (but a flat junction next to a single track curve would be a bad thing, the flat junction would preferably be near Dalston rather than near Canonbury.

Re the Parkland Walk, perhaps people see value in something else than money, cudos to them if so.
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Old February 2nd, 2011, 01:33 PM   #4354
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@MiaM
Without the restoration of the Northern Heights I agree that it would make more sense to use the abandoned western platform at Finsbury Park, currently on the freight-only line. However, the difference in height of the track-beds would presumably require restoration of the fly-over if the NH were brought back into play. I regularly walk the footbridge that replaced the flyover, and it's hard to imagine it working any other way. If you look at Google Maps you can see how the flyover ran from a curve that swung into the park where the tennis courts are now. The NH platforms were east of all of the current ones, on the site of the current covered eastern concourse overlooking the bus station. The bridge supports can still be seen on Stroud Green Road, next to the bike storage facility.

One thing to consider, though, is that an extension to Finsbury Park need not be a 'one station only' project. New platforms at Drayton Park would all the incorporationof that intermediate station, an extremely useful thing to do considering its proximity to the Emirates Stadium, the fact that it is currently closed on weekends and late evenings, and the overcrowding at all other stations on match-days. Presumably Arsenal could be tapped for contributions.

Also, without the restored flyover, extension to Finsbury Park would also allow the ELL and NLL to be linked to suburban services on the Main Line, something mooted by FirstCapitalConnect anyway due to capacity limitations at Moorgate. Living near Harringay Rail this would appeal to me greatly - it would give passengers between Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace (and potentially further north) a choice between direct services to Kings Cross, Moorgate, Stratford or New Cross. This would relieve the interchanges at Finsbury Park and Highbury and Islington too. An extension to FP would allow London Overground to wrestle those suburban services from FirstCapitalConnect, who are famously rubbish.
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Old February 2nd, 2011, 02:29 PM   #4355
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The above programme could be delivered in the following stages as new London Overland stock becomes available:

1) Extension of ELL to Finsbury Park via Drayton Park along the Canonbury Curve. The additional eastbound trains currently starting at Highbury & Islington start at FP instead. Cross-platform ELL/NLL interchange for eastbound passengers encouraged at Canonbury rather than multiple-level interchange at Hi&I.
2) 2tph LO service from Finsbury Park to Moorgate commences operation on Northern City Line at late evening and weekends when FirstCapitalConnect services do not operate. Funded through redevelopment of Drayton Park and Essex Road.
3) LO takes over Mainline suburban services from FCC, allowing the latter to concentrate on Thameslink. As the mainline splits at Alexandra Palace, simplicity of service might suggest sending Hadley Wood (Welwyn) trains down the NCL to Moorgate and Crews Hill (Hertford Loop) trains to the ELL&NLL, or vice versa.

The original Finsbury Park proposal can be seen here: http://www.urbantransport-technology...s/LONDON-8.jpg

Last edited by RedArkady; February 2nd, 2011 at 02:51 PM.
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Old February 3rd, 2011, 05:00 PM   #4356
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It's a shame that a local pressure group was able to exert enough force that the Northern Heights plan for the ELL was to put to bed.

London is devoid enough of suitable transport corridors as it stands. They are being built over even now (see Catford, between the railway stations for an example).

My view is that transport corridors, past and present, should be protected from both future non-transport related development and should be protected from NIMBY-like behaviour from individuals who do not recognise wider benefits than can be obtained from reusing transport corridors for transport purposes.

To put it simply, Parkland Walk was once a transport corridor and was released temporarily for use as a footpath, and one day hopefully should hopefully be reused as a corridor.

There are plenty of other places to walk your dog, but NOT plenty of other places to build a railway.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 09:39 PM   #4357
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Tubeman, any idea when in 2011 the refurbishment of the Central line will take place?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10586117
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Old February 10th, 2011, 07:22 PM   #4358
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Tubeman, any idea when in 2011 the refurbishment of the Central line will take place?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10586117
I could be very trite and unhelpful and say "2011"

...However I don't know... This may just be a very simple case of replacing the moquette fabric across the 92TS fleet which would take a few weeks, I wasn't aware that they were due for a full-on refurb, although many units are beginning to look tatty with corrosion on the exterior so it may be due.

At one point, they were just going to be scrapped & replaced rather than throwing good money after bad refurbing, but the current thrifty climate may require "mend and make do".
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Old February 10th, 2011, 08:10 PM   #4359
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Its interesting to hear that. Would you be able to tell me bit about the 92 central line stock as I have heard from many people about how it is perhaps the worst of the 'newish' stock?

What have the past problems and proposals been? What are they like to drive?

Weren't the bogies replaced with new siemens ones a few years ago?

Many thanks btw - love the thread.
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Old February 10th, 2011, 11:19 PM   #4360
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Its interesting to hear that. Would you be able to tell me bit about the 92 central line stock as I have heard from many people about how it is perhaps the worst of the 'newish' stock?

What have the past problems and proposals been? What are they like to drive?

Weren't the bogies replaced with new siemens ones a few years ago?

Many thanks btw - love the thread.
They simply weren't very well built, culminating famously with the Chancery lane derailment in 2003 when a motor fell off a bogie due to defective bolts; the entire Central and Waterloo & City Lines were consequently closed for some months during modifications.

Within a few weeks of introduction, the armrests between chairs started to all be kicked off by vandals so they were all simply removed, and there is evident corrosion around seams in the exterior bodywork on a lot of units.

I guess the state of flux of the manufacturer didn't help, it had been BREL in Derby (British Rail Engineering Ltd), but this was bought by a consortium just before this order, and subsequently became part of Bombardier.

As far as I am aware the bogies are original, just heavily modified.
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