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Old March 19th, 2011, 02:23 PM   #4441
nr23Derek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieP View Post
French for "Document not found".
oops

"Detailed map of London Tube, Underground, Overground & DLR"

It does work

Derek
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Old March 19th, 2011, 04:39 PM   #4442
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Anyway, stop advertising my 'competition'

Damned cartographers giving their work away for nothing...
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Old March 20th, 2011, 12:52 PM   #4443
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It's my first time in this thread. Anyways, just three questions.

1) The Olympic games for your country is scheduled next year. How are things going on with regards to preparations in regards to rail transportation? (aside from the "Olympic Javelin" bullet train courtesy of Hitachi Corporation)

2) Platform doors and gates in train stations in the country: Jubilee Line has them. With that said, who's next in line to get them? And, how many more are left to be constructed?

3) Not to start any panic or anything but if I may ask: United Kingdom is not that seismologically destructive by nature. However, in light of recent earthquake, tsunami and natural disasters that happened in Japan, would you care to give your opinion, analysis and evaluation regarding the safety and stability of rail transportation infrastructure in United Kingdom as well as any info or explanation on how these are kept safe and secure in the event of natural disasters like what happened in Japan

Of course, such event may not be as damaging and may not be a frequent occurrence in the United Kingdom, but still, it's best to be prepared in a worst-case scenario even happens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...United_Kingdom

And I hope that such an event would never have to happen in the first place

Thanks
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Old March 20th, 2011, 02:08 PM   #4444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackraven View Post
It's my first time in this thread. Anyways, just three questions.

1) The Olympic games for your country is scheduled next year. How are things going on with regards to preparations in regards to rail transportation? (aside from the "Olympic Javelin" bullet train courtesy of Hitachi Corporation)
Hi

It's difficult to say which developments are strictly Olympic-related and which were happening anyway, but improvements serving the Olympic park are:

Jubilee Line signalling upgrade (to ATO)
DLR Stratford International extension (opening next month, maybe... still no date)
1992 Stock refurb (Central Line)
Platform 3a at Stratford (additional westbound Central Line platform)
New turnback facility between West Ham and Plaistow (District and H&C Lines)

...But this would all have happened Olympics or not (except maybe the extra platform at Stratford), the games just give a bit more impetus

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2) Platform doors and gates in train stations in the country: Jubilee Line has them. With that said, who's next in line to get them? And, how many more are left to be constructed?
Just Crossrail 1 underground stations... There are no plans to install PEDs on any other LU lines, or even the remainder of the Jubilee Line (pre-1999 extension). Buried somewhere in this thread are I think discussions about this... Basically the curvature of many LU platforms preclude from PED installation (big gap between train and platform edge), as does the fact that mixed stocks serve the same platforms currently (i.e. doors in different places)... The latter issue will disappear when the S Stock is universally rolled out across the SSR lines.

They're very expensive, introduce more things that can go wrong operationally, and to be blunt if they can't be installed everywhere then they aren't really worth installing anywhere. They obviously prevent access to the track where they are installed (e.g. suicides), as well as rubbish blowing down tunnels (which can cause fires), but someone intent on jumping will just go to the nearest non-PED station... and sharply curved platforms like (for example) Bank on the Central Line could never realistically have PEDs installed.

The number of accidental falls onto the track or malicious pushes are minimal compared to genuine 'jumpers', it's a very expensive solution to a small problem.

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Originally Posted by Blackraven View Post
3) Not to start any panic or anything but if I may ask: United Kingdom is not that seismologically destructive by nature. However, in light of recent earthquake, tsunami and natural disasters that happened in Japan, would you care to give your opinion, analysis and evaluation regarding the safety and stability of rail transportation infrastructure in United Kingdom as well as any info or explanation on how these are kept safe and secure in the event of natural disasters like what happened in Japan

Of course, such event may not be as damaging and may not be a frequent occurrence in the United Kingdom, but still, it's best to be prepared in a worst-case scenario even happens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...United_Kingdom

And I hope that such an event would never have to happen in the first place

Thanks
The earthquake issue is beyond the limits of what we should be reasonably trying to mitigate against... I've felt 1 earthquake in 34 years in the UK, and that event (Market Rasen) caused one chimney on one house to topple over in the entire country. It's safe to say we'll be wiped out by an asteroid before an earthquake causes any significant damage in the UK!

The biggest natural risk to the rail infrastructure is flooding I guess. London Underground tunnels are in places below sea level let alone below the level of the Thames (very little in it), and are well below the water table. The constant water ingress is continually being pumped out by pumping stations, and this issue is getting worse as the London water table rises (up until the mid-20th century there was a vast amount of industrial groundwater extraction which kept levels down, this has stopped with the death of heavy industry in London). In addition, during WW2 the risk of a bomb landing on the Thames river bed above an LU tunnel and breaching it was identified, so a system of floodgates which rolled across to block the tunnels in such an eventuality was installed. These are all still in place, but I'm unsure how functional they are if at all. Somewhat callously the plan was for them to be rolled across either side of the Thames sealing the under-river section immediately that a breach occurred... any train(s) which happened to be sealed between the floodgates would be entombed and flooded... sacrificing the few to save the many.

On the National Rail network during major flood events the odd bridge here and there might get washed away... The only recent event I can think of was the 1987 Llandeilo disaster where a bridge over the River Towy was washed away as a train crossed, drowning 4 (this was during the infamous 'Great Storm' of 1987). Historically, the only really significant loss of life on Britain's railways due to nature was the 1879 Tay Bridge Disaster when the Tay Bridge in Dundee, Scotland, collapsed as a train crossed killing c.75 passengers. Again, this was during a violent windstorm and I have read elsewhere that the bridge was hit by a tornado as the train crossed, which combined with some structural flaws caused the disaster.

I guess we could always be hit by a tsunami... more likely from a landslide / volcanic eruption in the Atlantic (e.g. the Canaries) than an earthquake, as the Mid-Atlantic ridge is a constructive plate boundary so much less prone to big earthquakes than the destructive boundaries around the Pacific rim. In this eventuality, the only stretch of track I'd worry about is the GWR main line along the sea front between Dawlish and Teignmouth, although I guess a tsunami from the south-west could be dramatically funnelled up the Severn estuary and inundate the flat land in Somerset, Gloucestershire, and South Wales and therefore the rail lines in the area... It is speculated that the 1607 Bristol Channel flood was caused by just such a tsunami, originating from an undersea landslide or earthquake off Ireland.

Anyway, as they say on 'Crimewatch': "don't have nightmares!"
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Old March 20th, 2011, 05:56 PM   #4445
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The latter issue [different height stock] will disappear when the S Stock is universally rolled out across the SSR lines.
Is S stock the same height as '73 stock (Ealing Common, Rayners Lane, Eastcote, Ruislip Manor, Ruislip, Ickenham, Hillingdon and Uxbridge), Class 165/168 (Rickmansworth, Chorleywood, Chalfont & Latimer and Amersham) and Class 378 (Gunnersbury, Kew Gardens and Richmond) trains? Likewise '72 stock and Class 378 trains (Harrow & Wealdstone, Kenton, South Kenton, North Wembley, Wembley Central, Stonebridge Park, Harlesden, Willesden Junction and Kensal Rise)?

Of course, all these are open air stations and wouldn't have PEDs anyway (as the JLE stations in the open air didn't either).
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Old March 20th, 2011, 10:11 PM   #4446
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In theory you could have a "sort of" semi-PED that is installed a bit into the platform. On the Liseberg railway station in Gothenburg this is used, thus any stock may be used. The doors can always be opened from the track side of the doors, but somehow they are locked in the other direction when there are no trains on the platform. Perhaps train staff has to manually control the doors, I don't know.

That station sees about 4TPH peak hours and it's not that busy on the commuter train line that serves it, so this arrangement works there.

I assume such solution would never work on Londons underground stations as it requires 50-100cm wider platform...

Edit: regarding problems with bridges... It's rather easy to install a electrical wire among the bridge structure that gets cut if the structure has problems, and connect the wire to the signalling system so an approaching train sees stop/danger if the bridge has some problems.

However there needs to be a reason to believe that the bridge could be damaged to justify the cost of such a system...
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Old March 21st, 2011, 02:02 AM   #4447
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Of course, all these are open air stations and wouldn't have PEDs anyway
You could have saved yourself a lot of typing then!
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Old March 21st, 2011, 02:09 AM   #4448
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And I was talking about doors being in different positions depending on the stock, which would currently preclude Wimbledon - Barking and Great Portland Street - Liverpool Street from having PEDs due to C & D Stocks and A & C Stocks calling at the same platforms respectively...
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Old March 21st, 2011, 02:51 AM   #4449
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You could have saved yourself a lot of typing then!
But I wanted to know if the trains serving the shared platforms have the same floor height. So if you were so concerned about me typing more, rather than effectively saying 'that was a pointless post', you could have actually answered my questions. Thanks to your pointless - and rude - post, you also have to type more now.
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And I was talking about doors being in different positions depending on the stock, which would currently preclude Wimbledon - Barking and Great Portland Street - Liverpool Street from having PEDs due to C & D Stocks and A & C Stocks calling at the same platforms respectively...
So you were, but the train floor heights issue is also there as well (solved with S stock on stations that are actually underground). Also raises accessibility questions with level boarding and such like.

IIRC Heathrow Terminal 5 also has PEDs. Does Woolwich Arsenal DLR (the only other below ground station to have opened since the JLE) have them too?
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Old March 21st, 2011, 12:33 PM   #4450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaM View Post
In theory you could have a "sort of" semi-PED that is installed a bit into the platform. On the Liseberg railway station in Gothenburg this is used, thus any stock may be used. The doors can always be opened from the track side of the doors, but somehow they are locked in the other direction when there are no trains on the platform. Perhaps train staff has to manually control the doors, I don't know.
On the wikipedia page of the station there is a picture showing this semi-PED arrangement.

Sorry for going off-topic, but is this arrangement used anywhere else in the world?
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Old March 21st, 2011, 09:31 PM   #4451
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No, not seen them anywhere... Odd set-up

Bit worrying that someone could end up between train and PED screen too (gap looks wide enough), does seem to be a lot of effort for something rather pointless.

I've seen pictures of outdoors PEDs... Hong Kong I think... the screen is roughly chest height.
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 12:24 PM   #4452
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Tubeman, do you know anything about the extent of planned closures on the Northern line as a result of the upgrade? Also, is it more likely to affect the northern stretches or southern stretches or will it be complete line closure?
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 10:03 PM   #4453
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Tubeman, do you know anything about the extent of planned closures on the Northern line as a result of the upgrade? Also, is it more likely to affect the northern stretches or southern stretches or will it be complete line closure?
I know the extent of closures has been dramatically scaled back, it was going to be early closing daily for months with pretty much every weekend closed too, but this is now not happening after push-back from the Mayor. I guess this now means the upgrade will take longer...
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 11:46 PM   #4454
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Anything happening on your own little line at the moment, Tubeman? Never hear much about the Bakerloo apart from the odd south-eastern extension which never seems to be more than just a long-term intention.
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 01:21 AM   #4455
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Anything happening on your own little line at the moment, Tubeman? Never hear much about the Bakerloo apart from the odd south-eastern extension which never seems to be more than just a long-term intention.
Still back of the queue I'm afraid... No realistic improvements for (I reckon) at least a decade.

Anyway, I've been seconded to Head office now so the Bakerloo is in my past
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 02:28 AM   #4456
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Is the Bakerloo actually as slow as it seems when I ride it (ie, is it the slowest)? Or is it more to do with the more local stations compared to say, the Jubilee line? The Central always seems the fastest to me. Though thinking about it, I think sound has a lot to do with the psychology of speed.
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 02:53 AM   #4457
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Is the Bakerloo actually as slow as it seems when I ride it (ie, is it the slowest)? Or is it more to do with the more local stations compared to say, the Jubilee line? The Central always seems the fastest to me. Though thinking about it, I think sound has a lot to do with the psychology of speed.
The Central has the fastest acceleration / hardest braking so you aren't imagining it... the ATO is the prime reason, combined with newer stock (the Victoria Line's 1967 stock are also ATO but can't muster the same acceleration / braking performance).

The Jubilee has wider spaced stations and gentler curvature on account of being newer (the three tunnel sections date from 1939, 1979 and 1999)... It came after the levy that used to be charged to Tube builders for tunnelling below private property, which restricted tunnels by and large to following streets and their twists & turns. The Central is lucky in that it follows a roman road all the way from Shepherd's Bush to Bank, so is pretty straight between these two stations despite being one of the first tubes.

The Bakerloo suffers from closely spaced stations and several torturous curves derived from following the streets above along the original 1900's section, you can follow the route on an A to Z:

Elephant & Castle station > follows London Road to St Georges Circus *tight curve* > follows Westminster Bridge Road > *tight curve* into Lambeth North station > follows Westminster Bridge Road to where the Waterloo main line crosses *tight curve* deviating away from Westminster Bridge Road and under Waterloo station *Waterloo platforms on another tight curve* > crosses under Thames parallel with Hungerford Bridge > Embankment station > follows Northumberland Avenue onto Cockspur Street > Charing Cross station > continues under Cockspur Street *very tight curve* onto Haymarket > up Haymarket *tight curve into Piccadilly Circus station* > *gentler curve under southern end of Regent Street* > follows Regent Street > Oxford Circus station > continues up Regent Street *tight curves one way then the other to follow Langham Place onto Portland Place* > up Portland Place > Regent's Park station *gentler curve 90 degrees under Park Crescent* > York Terrace > Baker Street Station > Melcombe Street > Harewood Row > Bell Street > Edgware Road station *then a long arcing southward curve followed by a very sharp northward curve into Paddington station*

The curves at Paddington, Picc Circus > Charing Cross, Waterloo > Lambeth and the one under St Georges Circus are the real killers, there aren't many decent straight runs unimpeded by speed restrictions anywhere on the original stretch of line. That being said, the 1972 stocks are quite zippy for their age (decent acceleration and strong braking).
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 06:14 AM   #4458
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IIRC Heathrow Terminal 5 also has PEDs. Does Woolwich Arsenal DLR (the only other below ground station to have opened since the JLE) have them too?
Heathrow T5 and Woolwich Arsenal both don't have PEDs.
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 12:32 PM   #4459
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No, not seen them anywhere... Odd set-up
I think it's done this way to make it work more or less with any stock. Usually the same kind of local commuter trains stop here, but at some occations other stock stop here.

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Bit worrying that someone could end up between train and PED screen too (gap looks wide enough), does seem to be a lot of effort for something rather pointless.
I think that it's up to the guard to wait until the area between the train and PED is cleared before the train departs, but I'm not sure.

AFAIK this is the only PED installation in Sweden. I believe that it's installed because there is a mix of local stopping trains and regional/intercity passing through at full speed on the same two track station, and as it's in a tunnel there is no way for a driver of a non-stopping train to see if the platforms are too overcrowded before it's too late to slow down.
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Old March 23rd, 2011, 06:53 PM   #4460
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Thanks once again Tubeman for your comprehensive answer.
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